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Ok Dakka , i have seen this asked countless times already , but every single time its the same dodgy answer.

So please if its written on some GW or FW website on legal usage , please link us the site.
If its written on some pages of Imperial Armor , please tell us the page.

What im not looking for is:

Debate and theory on whether FW units are over cost in points to bring "balance"
Whether your friend , your neighbor and their dog says is ok.

I just need something adamant , something black and white and set in stone , something i can point as reference to without getting into debates.

what if such a thing does not exist?

the answer is n

no they are not officially legal
they are in effect a 'fandex'
but like all 'fandex' if your opponent aggrees then its o.k. but if they don't then you do not have any way of proving there legality as there is no legality to them

The models are legal as its a GW Product, but the special rules are not.

Without rules they would only be used as counts as, so to conform to the WYSIWYG rule then no you can't

But if I remember correctly I remember reading something about WD and FW rules being allowed into normal games if your opponent was alright with it. Other than that they wouldn't be allowed.

So in a way the answer is "yes/no, but you have to ask your opponent first".

croggy wrote:the answer is n

no they are not officially legal
they are in effect a 'fandex'
but like all 'fandex' if your opponent aggrees then its o.k. but if they don't then you do not have any way of proving there legality as there is no legality to them

And your evidence is.... nothing! Good opinion though.

There's nothing in the 40k rulebook that says what codexes are legal.

I would think that the basis of what is usable and what is not is who is publishing what without legal challenge. GW owns the 40K brand. If someone publishes something using the 40K background/rules and GW does not challenge them then GW is giving tacit approval of the product(s). More specifically GW owns FW and FW prints/manufactures 40K related merchandise. Without a declarative statement from either source stating that the product is an optional rule or a non-official rule then you have to assume that the rule is official.
I just looked over IA Apocalypse and there is a letter in the start of it that discusses how FW see it's rules and how they work with GW. Page 4 (in the introduction) actually is labeled "Offical-Dom". I would read that and make of it what you want.

"Counts As" kind of overrides WYSIWYG if everything is clearly modeled and identified. It's why there's a distinction between the two terms. Of course, there are some weirdos that abuse this...

It wasn't serious hence the wink

n0t_u wrote:It wasn't serious hence the wink

Damn you Droid and your inability to animate my Orkmoticons!

Hey Luna, are you talking about in friendly games? Are you having difficulty with opponents on this?

At the beginning of most of the Forgeworld books, it says that they are legal.

Of course, if they're not legal, anything they say is irrelevant.

Official doesn't matter for friendly games, work it out with your friends. For tournaments, it's really up to the Tournament Organizer.

Redbeard wrote:At the beginning of most of the Forgeworld books, it says that they are legal.

Of course, if they're not legal, anything they say is irrelevant.

Official doesn't matter for friendly games, work it out with your friends. For tournaments, it's really up to the Tournament Organizer.

Thats not really what im asking. I dont want them to "allow" me to use X and X because they want to be friendly.

I just want to know whats the official stance on whether FW units been as legal to be used just like we know Codex units are legal.

LunaHound wrote:

Redbeard wrote:At the beginning of most of the Forgeworld books, it says that they are legal.

Of course, if they're not legal, anything they say is irrelevant.

Official doesn't matter for friendly games, work it out with your friends. For tournaments, it's really up to the Tournament Organizer.

Thats not really what im asking. I dont want them to "allow" me to use X and X because they want to be friendly.

I just want to know whats the official stance on whether FW units been as legal to be used just like we know Codex units are legal.

You are proberly best to ask FW your self. Just email them. I email them about questions and they normally reply within a day.

LunaHound wrote:
Thats not really what im asking. I dont want them to "allow" me to use X and X because they want to be friendly.

I just want to know whats the official stance on whether FW units been as legal to be used just like we know Codex units are legal.

Well, you're just going to be disappointed then. There is no official stance. ForgeWorld says that they're legal, but of course they do, they're trying to sell them. GW doesn't have a stance. What you're looking for doesn't exist.

LunaHound wrote:I just want to know whats the official stance on whether FW units been as legal to be used just like we know Codex units are legal.

There is no publicly-offered official stance beyond FW themselves saying that they are legal.


In friendly games, FW rules are legal if you and your opponent choose to use them, just like every other rule in the game.
In an organised game, they're legal if the organiser chooses to allow them.

That's really all there is to it.

ph34r wrote:There's nothing in the 40k rulebook that says what codexes are legal.

but Forge World don't make Codexes

Codices to be precise.

But they're right there is nothing in the 40k rulebook stopping these rules from working, at least according to my memory.

insaniak wrote:In friendly games, FW rules are legal if you and your opponent choose to use them, just like every other rule in the game.
In an organised game, they're legal if the organiser chooses to allow them.

That's the rub though isn't it? I could field a unit of poo flinging monkey's if my opponent or the TO allows it. That's meaningless. What is "legal" is what I can field without anyone's permission, which I think is what Luna is after...

And to clarify my own stance... even though I wish it were otherwise, at least around here the answer is "no", you can't field them (using the FW rules) without permission. As mentioned before, you can always use them as "counts as" something out of the codex as long as the war gear works (to a reasonable approximation). I can't quote line and verse as to why... its just the local convention, but it's a pretty decent & well traveled 40k community and I expect we're not that far off from the norm... as Insaniak, Redbeard and others have stated.

LunaHound wrote:I just want to know whats the official stance on whether FW units been as legal to be used just like we know Codex units are legal.

There is no 'official', it is as Redbeard says.

Gitsplitta wrote:

insaniak wrote:In friendly games, FW rules are legal if you and your opponent choose to use them, just like every other rule in the game.
In an organised game, they're legal if the organiser chooses to allow them.

That's the rub though isn't it? I could field a unit of poo flinging monkey's if my opponent or the TO allows it. That's meaningless. What is "legal" is what I can field without anyone's permission, which I think is what Luna is after...

Yes it is , thanks for understanding me xD

Gotta take 'em wherever I can get 'em...

In that case, I'd assume no then, seeing as how you'll generally be asking permission most of the time.

Tournaments: No.
Any other setting: Sure thing!

Most Forgeworld rules are overcosted or underpowered, and are just there for cool and fluffy reasons. If somebody had a Forgeworld list I'd just ask what everything was and I'd probably be good to go as long as they didn't bring a Warhound or something.

FW doesnt make codices they make imperial armour books.

the only one that you can really use with no questions asked is the recent orky one as gw have actualy said can be used nd i frequently see it used down my local store.

Brother SRM wrote:Tournaments: No.
Any other setting: Sure thing!

Correction:

Tournaments: If the TO says so.
Any other setting: Yes. They do not require specific permission.

And what I mean by "specific" permission is that FW units and rules do not require any special or additional permission above any other 40K unit.

I wouldn't play with Forge World rules unless I had been given the chance to read the rules in advance, and I thought they were fair.

I'd say using a Forge World thing breaks the rules of using "official" GW things because the forge world things don't say they're offical GW. Albiet i am using the dumb arguement, "it doesn't say they are so they're not" GW does label things it wants in rulebooks and codexes such as the deathspinnner. I see using the Forge World books akin to using the apocalypse book or another codex in addition to your own, sure you can, but there's a time and place to use them which is not in a regular (not exactly friendly)game.

Joetaco wrote:I'd say using a Forge World thing breaks the rules of using "official" GW things because the forge world things don't say they're official GW. Albeit I am using the dumb argument, "it doesn't say they are so they're not" GW does label things it wants in rulebooks and Codices such as the Deathspinnner. I see using the Forge World books akin to using the Apocalypse book or another codex in addition to your own, sure you can, but there's a time and place to use them which is not in a regular (not exactly friendly)game.

You've never actually read a Forge World book, have you?

One of the first things it says is that they're "official" GW products, and Codex legal.
As HBMC and Ph3ar said:
It's completely 100% legal to use, without having to ask permission, for regular games. However, it's considered poor form amongst gamers to just suddenly spring something like that on someone without any warning or even letting them see the rules/book. It leaves a window open for you to make crap up as you go along to ensure a win.

The only caveat about the legality is that tournament organizers can disallow them, just like they can with any other codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Joetaco wrote:I'd say using a Forge World thing breaks the rules of using "official" GW things because the forge world things don't say they're official GW. Albeit I am using the dumb argument, "it doesn't say they are so they're not" GW does label things it wants in rulebooks and Codices such as the Deathspinnner. I see using the Forge World books akin to using the Apocalypse book or another codex in addition to your own, sure you can, but there's a time and place to use them which is not in a regular (not exactly friendly)game.

You've never actually read a Forge World book, have you?

One of the first things it says is that they're "official" GW products, and Codex legal.
As HBMC and Ph3ar said:
It's completely 100% legal to use, without having to ask permission, for regular games. However, it's considered poor form amongst gamers to just suddenly spring something like that on someone without any warning or even letting them see the rules/book. It leaves a window open for you to make crap up as you go along to ensure a win.

The only caveat about the legality is that tournament organizers can disallow them, just like they can with any other codex.

+1

You may use FW in your games should you so wish, a bit of common sense and courtesy is all that should be required to get a game going.

Im pretty sure you are allowed to use fw stuff in standard 40k games. i have never faced anything from fw or feilded anything from there but i dont think it is illegal in gw rules, real the mission details for breakthrough entry in the rule book, it talks about a 2500pts army facing off against a single warlord titan. it would not make any sense if the models were illegal in gw games for them to say use a warlord.