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I am just worried that my new land raider is going to have a issue...that would REALLY suck.

For my money, the fact that it's a GW product, regardless of sub company, or affiliated company or post secondary opt in friendship bracelet company position makes FW stuff legal. Period.

GW would not have a GW division like ForgeWorld making useless, unsellable products. It's completely nonsensical regardless of what everyone is nitpicking about here. Think they have an art team drawing up art for Star Wars that they can't market or sell? Is it a GW product, with a GW stamp, from a GW company in a GW game in a GW store? Yup? Then it's legal.

I'm starting to think this debate is turning into a class position, as an earlier poster mentioned. I can afford FW stuff. Darn near as much as I can point a stick at. Some cannot. So far, it seems that the cannots are arguing against the cans here.

I was at the gamestore prior to my interested in FW stuff, when a very similar debate was going on about Tyranid Exocrine models. I forget the details now, this was a few years back, but if I recall correctly, the two fellas with one each were arguing it in this small Apoc battle. Meanwhile on the other team, I saw two Armorcast warhounds, so I went over to find out what was going on. Seemed ironic that two old Armorcast Warhound users were saying the Exocrines weren't "legal".

Long story short, the warhound users had to borrow those of the store in order to compete with the Exocrines, and were basically using the argument that it wasn't fair that people with money should have a leg up on those without. The store loaned them the Warhounds, and in fact, they were completely winning the game, and yet the argument still came up, by which side I don't know. But it wouldn't be the first time I've heard this view against FW, or even WYSIWYG stuff from folks that can't afford every variant of leman russ out there.

I happen to be able to afford it AND think that WYSIWYG is a crock, for what that's worth, but indeed, the point has been brought up, is this more of a question of class, or a question of rules? We've already established that GW used to have a rule stating that a model had to be "mostly" GW parts, but they removed the rule, willfully indicating a divergence from that established practice. What that leaves us with is a question of why would people have a problem with GW products (FW) in a GW game (40K)?

Why would a Land raider have an issue?
If it's plastic then it's 100% GW, if it's resin then it's 100% FW thus 100% GW.
You should never have problems with FW models, only their rules seem to cause debate (and the manticore if you know some WAAC players that happen to be TFG).

Grey Templar wrote:DKoK simply has some different options then normal IG.

other then the options you can't use the basic troopers should be fine.

Err, what? Read the new krieg pdf, you can use basic platoons with them.

That was poorly written.

i meant other then options like Heavy Stubbers in infantry.

the Basic troopers are fine to use.




@Lord Manimal and poipo32: that is actually a very good argument in favor of using FW products. I guess people arguing the % of GW product don't have a leg to stand on.

FW rules would, from a technical standpoint, be allowed without an opponents permission, But if someone doesn't want to play with you if your using FW rules then there really isn't anything you can do about it.

People will generally like to be told about FW rules being used. if told most reasonable people will not have a problem.



the way this could all be solved would be if GW wrote all new FW rules and approved/altered all the existing FW rules so there wouldn't be all this confusion and let FW focus on producing the products.

To the original question, and this is usually what all these debates turn into as it is the most correct response:

They are as "legal" as anything can be when your opponent can decide to pack up his stuff at any point in time.

Example 1: I don't want to play against orks. I try to find a pickup game. You say "I'll play you, I'm playing orks." I decline to play and politely mention that I don't want to play against orks even though you complain that they are a legal army.

Example 2: I don't want to play against FW rules. I try to find a pickup game. You say "I'll play you, I'm playing [whatever]" Game starts. You start using FW rules. I pack up and politely mention that I don't want to play against forgeworld rules (note here, I said rules not models) even though you complain that they are a legal army.

Example 3: I don't care what I play against. You want to play a completely made up army list that you wrote at home. We play a game.

Get the point?

Personally, I have no problem with most Forgeworld rules. I refuse to play against superheavies and their ilk. It's not that I think they are overpowered and undercosted, it's that I have no understanding of their rules. Structure points? Void shields? Strength "D"? I don't know what those mean (well I have a general idea, but you get the point), and as such cannot effectively play against them. However, I have no problem with the more general things in FW. I know how to play against infantry, or tanks, or whatever, and quickly and easily understand the statline of those units and their weapons even if I've never seen them before.

EDIT: Anyone unwilling to play against Forgeworld models that use standard codex rules (for example, the FW Greater Daemons that you are running as Codex: Daemons Greater Daemons) is a tool and should be punched in the face as you yell "Blood for the Blood God!"

How about this situation then:

A person has an IG army. He wants to use DKOK rules with them. But he only wants to use some of them, because he wants to continue to use Basilisks and other fun stuff alongside the DKOK goodies.

No, the models are not DKOK. Just normal guard.

again, it is totally up to your opponent.

that is mixing the rules up and as such is to be considered "Home Brew"


as long as pts are fairly costed i will play.


I will never allow Super Heavies in normal games(once did allow a Nid Bio Titan, never again), but other wise i am fine. i will want to look at the rules of course.


FW versions of Codex units should never cause a problem. +1 to Shrike325s idea for those duchs who won't let you use FW versions.

I have recently purchased two of the XV9 Hazard Suits. My friends and i had a lively argument about the validity of the models until i showed them the different rules and weapon stats. After reading them and realizing that they were not the FW bogeymen that they imagined we have had no issues.....

A big factor was the lines in the bottom of the Hazard suit page in the IA2 book was that these models are a FA choice in a Tau Empire Codex list. We all agreed that without that line these would have been concidered Apoc units and unable to play in our standard games......

The only way something can be an Apoc unit is if it is on an Apoc Datasheet.

It boils down to this: You can't force me to play by any ruleset, but if you ask nicely I'll likely to be up for a game.

People don't like to be pushed into a situation where there "may" be a discrepancy in power level. Especially, when it comes across as a perceived economic advantage(I had more money so I'm going to buy a win). Whether this is a misperception or not doesn't matter, you are not going to force the person to change their mind.
Now the FW rules often suck, but there are times when they go a bit OTT. For Tau, Three extra squads on Crisis suits through the FA section could push them OTT or it could bring the 4th ed codex on par with newer codices. Depends on personal PoV.

Thing is you can not force the decision upon your opponent. You get pushy, people tend to resist, it is human nature and to pretend otherwise is to be intentionally obtuse. You try to spring some obscure non-codex unit on an opponent and say that they have to play against it, they're likely to tell you to just bugger-off. Why? Because it comes across as list tailoring via economics. This is why I make sure that my opponent and I look at each others lists before we play, it helps to make sure that there is an understanding as to each of our expectations about the game.

If you mention that you have some new FW models that you want to test before the game, I'll most likely play against them. Only reasons why I might not is if time is an issue or if I don't feel that the army I brought that day will give my opponent the test he is looking for. If you tell me that I have to play against these models and rules, I'll chuckle & nod my head as I pack up my army. If you become rude and insulting, I'll make sure to lodge a complaint about your disruptive behavior with the store owner.

I have some forge world pieces, Tau Barracudas to be exact and soon a couple of TigerSharks. I only bring them to games upon my opponents request. Why?
1)Forge World calls their rules experimental
2)Rules descrepancies between the IA books and the GW Codices(Taros campaing has Pirahna drones dismounting seperately and a few others such things)
3)I don't like showy displays of affluence. I buy my models for myself, not to show off and say look what I can afford.
4)40K is where I go to get away from drama and arguments.
5)Resin breaks too easy.

Rule of thumb on this subject, Don't try to bully your opponent. Instead be courteous, friendly and respectful. If they can't be the same to you, then it looks bad on them.

Are you playing a normal game or an expansion?

The link is to the cover of IA: VIII on the FW website:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/IA8cover.jpg

What does FW tell you their IA product is? That's my view on the topic.

I'm going to start of by saying there are a lot of people with this stigma that everyone with a FW model or ruleset is WAAC player with a gimmicky army full of super heavies. The truth is far from this as imperial armour books are pretty much GW expansion sourcebooks like city fight or spearhead. Not every FW unit is superheavy/apoc only and not every FW army list is as gimmicky as DKoK. Many FW units are just alternate HQ, Heavy Support or Fast Attack choices for existing codex armies such as DH or CSM. Many people use FW to provide additional flavour to armies that lack variety such as CSM and DH. I personally like to use Lord Zhufor as the HQ for my chaos army every now and again and no one has had any issues with this so far. Not game breaking mind you as Zhufor can get owned rather easily by a run of the mill wolf lord. There are some FW units/lists that are capable of cheese but then again so is Codex: Blood Angels.

I am of the opinion that in a standard 40k game, the player should not ask for permission per se but at least notify the other player if they are using a FW unit that fits in with an existing codex such as a HQ like Lord Zhufor or heavy support choices like the GK land raider variants. I reckon a player should ask for permission if they want to run a FW superheavy in spearhead/Apoc or a unique FW list like Nurgle/Khorne Traitor Guard or DKoK.

I don't mind my opponents using FW models but I'm hesitant myself; the Lucius pattern drop pod is really really good, probably overpowered good.

Go for it, as I have seen most, people will let you use FW rules when you give them a heads up.
It adds flavour to the game and some people like unexpected turns of events, I know I do and would be happy to play against your Lucius Pattern Drop Pod (But my army is a FW List with FW rules )

Leez wrote:Are you playing a normal game or an expansion?

The link is to the cover of IA: VIII on the FW website:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/IA8cover.jpg

What does FW tell you their IA product is? That's my view on the topic.

This is probably the best post in the thread so far with regards to deciphering GW and FW's intent about the "officialness" of FW. The fact that IA is now clearly being labeled as an expansion, whereas the codexes are being labeled as codexes should go pretty far in telling you that FW units and lists are legal like Spearhead or Apocalypse is legal - both of us have to decide to use the expansion, but they're official rules otherwise.

Thus, if you haul out a FW unit or list, and your opponent says something like "if I had known we were going to use FW, I would have brought a different list", the polite player would put the stuff back and use a different, codex-only list. Same thing with a spearhead or the like. No one's forcing the other player to object with either expansion - it's going to depend on exactly what's being brought. (And, incidentally, this alone would force FW users to consider whether they're abusing FW rules.)

I'm not a FW hater - I've just ordered some breaching drills for my standard IG army, and I look forward to using them. But the game has to be fun for both sides of the table, and "rabbit out of the hat" units/lists are not always fun for the other guy.

Well, my friendly gaming group (fgg?) is extremely strict on stuff like this, and it's bad.

On one side, you have me. Id let anyone who went to the trouble of buying a forge world model use it, rules and all (their overpriced). I wouldnt allow a flyer into a non apoc game or anything, but I WOULD play an apoc game so they could use it. But then again, I hate when people skimp out on stuff, like using counts as models, and ...bluetac....to symbolise stuff. Not how the game is supposed to be played. If everyone could field everything as counts as, I would have a leaf blower list, and no one would have any fun. Likewise, you should have to buy the models you want.

On the other side, you have some others in my gaming group. Some are good, Some are normal, and very few - but they do exist - are bad.
So I have a devastator sergeant. He has a sniper rifle from the scouts box set. Hes cool, and he's also totally not allowed. Ive never been allowed to use him. whats one bs 4 sniper rifle gunna do? 10 bs 4 sniper rifles do like..1 wound to a MEQ squad...jeez. You have people in my gaming group who on one hand, will not allow us an inch of anti wysiwig (ignoring grenades and such) but on the other hand, never equip their squads with the correct chaos icons. There have been times when the icon has come into question during a game.

I bought a baneblade. My entire gaming group has vowed to never play spearhead or apocalypse with me. $165 dollars of waste. They never would let me use it in a normal game either, which is ok, but the fact that they refuse to play spearhead (which i consider to be funner than normal games, super heavies or not) is irritating to say in the least.

Well theres my rant. I guess all Im saying is: Spend the money, use the unit. Cut out a box of foam and stick a pencil in the top? no way is that a basilsk. no way.

Jaon wrote:10 bs 4 sniper rifles do like..1 wound to a MEQ squad...jeez.

I wouldn't allow a sniper rifle on a Dev sergeant, either. First of all, Dev sergeants can't take heavy weapons. Second, you're absolutely wrong about this. 10 BS 4 sniper rifles will cut an MEq squad neatly in half. Sniper rifles are rending weapons, and some of those non-rending wounds are bound to fail their armor saves.

Jaon wrote:I bought a baneblade. My entire gaming group has vowed to never play spearhead or apocalypse with me. $165 dollars of waste. They never would let me use it in a normal game either, which is ok, but the fact that they refuse to play spearhead (which i consider to be funner than normal games, super heavies or not) is irritating to say in the least.

I wouldn't allow Baneblades in normal games - or any superheavy, for that matter. It sounds great on paper but it's just a hassle and too difficult to kill outside of apoc. As for refusing to play apoc or spearhead games with you - why? There's usually a reason for people refusing to play certain game types with you.

Given human nature, that reason is often whiny and stupid.