Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A force of Battle Sisters accompanied Saint Sabbat before she was killed the first time, alongside forces from the Brazen Skulls and White Scars chapters, Imperial Guard regiments (including some very famous Lord Generals and stategists), and members of the Frateris Militia. This was hardly "a force of fanatics", because they managed to keep crusading for 105 years, and was considered largely successful. Hardly something a mere "force of fanatics" would be capable of. Check your sources (in this case, "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sourcebook by Dan Abnett I believe is the primary source for this).

IIRC, two orders of Sisters are stationed on Cadia itself, and fought there. I do not have the sourcebook with me, however, so if you can cite your source I will concede this.

The Second and Third invasions of Armageddon were some of the most important pieces of fluff for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, which defended Hive Tempestora for longer than any other force that was present in the city before being wiped out-- this despite betrayal by the governor leading to the attack being a massively successful surprise attack. The Order of the Argent Shroud, which was also present, was far more successful, fighting on the offense alongside the Flesh Tearers (whom they notably reported for heresy because the Flesh Tearers attacked the Armageddon Militia in the heat of battle) against the Ork horde. The source for both was, amongst other sources (such as C:SoB and the Inqusition background book) the Third War for Armageddon website, which was archived here, and GW's own website, which you can search through if you want (Though I don't know if they still have that information).

The same site also noted that they successfully attacked and destroyed forward bases of the Angels Vermillion chapter under a previous Canoness, which means they can indeed be effective against Marines.

I've got "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sitting right next to me. Saint Sabbat was killed before the Sabbat Worlds were reclaimed, and before those actual Guard and Space Marine forces were committed. Check your sources.

Those two Orders were "reassigned" after the Canonesses leading them tried to start crap against the Space Wolves for allowing The 13th Company to operate unopposed in Imperial space.

I don't really consider the SoB to be shock troops or special forces, at least not deliberately. They seem to just be the ecclesiarchy's private (but otherwise general purpose) army.

I'm sure if the ecclesiarchy were poverty stricken, then SoB would be something akin to female imperial guard (possibly with better leadership~faith). But as it happens the ecclesiarchy is super rich and powerful with money to burn, so they can afford to kit out their troops with all the best armour, weapons and training.

Of course that is just in fluff terms. In game terms they appear to serve very much the same role as Space Marines.

Alpharius wrote:∞. Some arguments can never be won with some people, to the point where they in fact become pointless.

Wasn't really giving up, just agreeing on some points.

Now I haven't read any of the Sabbat world fluff, but even if they weren't present, I still believe that Soroitas are the special forces, while marines remain more of a shock trooper role.

I think a lot of this just has to do with people not agreeing on what each of those terms mean...

Just to take it from Wikipedia, as I can't get to the library right now and get access to any hardcore military publications:

Shock troops or assault troops are infantry formations and their supporting units, intended to lead an attack. Shock troop is a loose translation of the German word "Stoßtrupp". The units which contain assault troops are typically organized for mobility, with the intention that they will penetrate through enemy defenses and attack into the enemy's vulnerable rear areas.

Although the term shock troop became popular in the 20th century, the concept is not a new one, see for example the use by Napoleonic era armies of the forlorn hope. Presently, the term is rarely used explicitly, as the strategic concepts behind it have become standard contemporary military thinking (see section After World War II).

Special Forces are VERY different than shock troops, but can operate in the capacity of shock troops.

Special forces are versatile and agile military assets capable of providing discreet reconnaissance, surveillance and capacity building to other states security forces. They are suited to operating against informally structured, irregular and asymmetric forces and capable of operating independently, or in direct support of either conventional military forces or other government departmental requirements. They are high value assets, commanded at the strategic level that deliver effects disproportionately to their size.

Excluding some chapters like the Raven Guard the Space Marines seem to be a little too unsubtle to be special forces. Same with the Sisters imho.

Melissia wrote:They also had the Imperial Army supporting them wherever they went, but I think we're going ot have to look up the most recent fluff to find out the correct numbers-- 20,000 seems very light indeed, as they would have needed around 1,000,000 surviving loyalists to start the Chapter system, wouldn't they?

You're thinking of the number of Astartes in the 41st Millennium, when the 2nd Founding took place there were considerably less than that.

In Codex: Ultramarines we are told that the old Legions devided into fewer than five Chapters (the Space Wolves only two and the Salamanders none at all.) The Ultramarines on the other hand who came through the Heresy relatively unscathed devided into twenty-three Chapters, according to the Apocrypha of Skaros. If we add up all of the Secound Founding Chapters, plus the Chapters which retained the original Legion names and taking into account the twenty-three Primogenitor Chapters we can roughly estiamte that there were forty-nine thousand Astartes at the time of the Second Founding.


Just to add some points to the where the Astartes sit in the Imperial Hierarchy it must be remembered that all Chapters exist outside the Imperium, they have no High Lord or any kind of representative in the Senatorum Imperialis. The newer background ommits some very interesting facts about Chapters which make their position much clearer.

For instance, the collective name for the Astartes is always written these days as the Adeptus Astartes but in the older background they were known as the Legionnes Astartes. The title of Adeptus Astartes was reserved for those Chapters who controlled a world. By having a homeworld the Chapter Master was able to take the title of Adeptus or Adept of the Priesthood of Earth, as he became an Imperial Commander. The Chapter by extension was then able to call itself Adeptus Astartes.

Looking at it from this angle it is easy to see the authority inherent with any Chapter of Adeptus Astartes as the Chapter Master is an Imperial Commander and the Chapter is then able to operate with the beenfit of that authority. The Sororitas however do not have this kind of authority but their role as religious police does allow them to do a fair bit even so; the extent of which is detailed fairly extensively in Rogue Trader.

idget wrote:Excluding some chapters like the Raven Guard the Space Marines seem to be a little too unsubtle to be special forces. Same with the Sisters imho.

Unsubtle? Possibly, as I doubt dropping out of the sky in artificial comets is considered stealthy. But just because that isn't subtle doesn't mean it isn't effective as a tactic. After all, having ten or so 8ft tall super-soldiers burst out of a drop pod in the middle of your position would probably be terrifying enough to throw the enemy into disorder. Not all special forces have to be subtle, as long as they have a significant effect on the battle.

idget wrote:Excluding some chapters like the Raven Guard the Space Marines seem to be a little too unsubtle to be special forces. Same with the Sisters imho.

In a modern context, "special forces" to many people means "stealth."

Not necessarily the case.

While many operations carried out by SFOD operatives demand a measure of subtlety, many do not. Modern US special forces (I can't speak for any other country) carry out a wide spectrum of operations, from undercover reconnaissance to the far less subtle armed sweep and clear (referred to before the Vietnam War as "search and destroy") operation.

The Marines can only do half of that, with the exception of Scouts, which are still limited (and, arguably, not yet full Marines). They're completely unsuited to subtlety, and even chapters like the Raven Guard who have a propensity for stealth ops and behind-the-lines sorties are still doing it while stomping around in power armor.

Calling the Space Marines the Imperium's special forces is only addressing half of that role.

The other half is arguably carried out by the Inquisition (though not the Sororitas), the Officio Assassinorum, and, quite possibly, the Imperial Guard, though I wouldn't be able to cite an example of the last one - it simply stands to reason.

As for the concept of "shock troops," every single fighting force in the Imperium has those. The Imperial Guard has great masses of mechanized infantry and Leman Russes to perform this task, the Astartes in general do it well, and the Sororitas are capable of it, though not as often used in that capacity.

These two terms, if we're going with the modern definitions, are far too abstract to be applied to any one branch of the Imperium's military might. Each branch is fully capable of at least part of each role.

Therefore, this debate is sort of silly.

For the Imperial Guard's special forces, it'd be the Stormtroopers. The Inquisition's stormtroopers are supposed to be the top one percent of all stormtroopers or something to that effect.

Melissia wrote:For the Imperial Guard's special forces, it'd be the Stormtroopers. The Inquisition's stormtroopers are supposed to be the top one percent of all stormtroopers or something to that effect.

From a "sweep and clear" standpoint, absolutely, but I wasn't sure if the Imperial Guard had operatives that handle the other half of special forces work.

Or do the Stormtroopers do that too?

Similar to modern SFOD-D?

The Stormtroopers are trained in stealth operations, insertion behind enemy lines, sabotage, etc.

This is represented by their Special Operations rule in tabletop, though tabletop doesn't really represent real world tactics naturally. You choose between "Airborne Assault", "Behind Enemy Lines", and "Reconnaissance" at the beginning of the game, each one having a set of special rules they get.

Well there you are, then. Forget the Astartes and Sororitas, the IG chuckle at their posturing and religious exclamations, then go do the real work.

Until it gets too tough for them, that is. I'll never concede that particular point!

If it's too tough for the Guard, you just don't have enough Guard.

Everyone knows that

Melissia wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:They are used only by the Inquisition

Err, what? No.

Go read C:SoB and C:WH... they are used by the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost, to propagate its Wars of Faith (often declared in support of an Imperial Crusade, such as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade), defend important religious sites, and generally fight the enemies of the Imperium. The Inquisition only rarely uses Sisters, because the Inquisition's job is investigative in nature (Sisters are extremely unsubtle).

More Offten than not, the Inquisition uses Highly Trained Veteren teams to accompany their Agents

Yeah, those kinds of teams (especially stormtroopers) are far less likely to attract attention than Sisters are.

I think GW really needs to drop the unthinking zealot image for SOB's, I'd far rather they were stoic, faithful, inspiring, and tactically adept rather than likely to forget all strategy and charge a tyranid swarm with the sole intent of nutting the hive tyrany as they seem to be portrayed at the moment.

On topic however, I think they are both adept shock troops, I see Sisters as being more likely to be deployed on the front line than SM purely because normal humans seem to be as intimidated marines as they are reassured by them, whereas I think they'd be a lot more Inspired by the sisters.

Oh, I disagree. Their unwavering fanaticism is why they're awesome.

The Imperial Guard venerates the Emperor, but only so that he'll protect them in battle.

The Astartes venerate the Emperor, but put Chapter cult first and foremost.

But the Sisters - faith is purest when it is unquestioning, and theirs is exactly that. They serve the God-Emperor of Mankind, and carry out His will without question or hesitation.

That's why they kick as much ass as they do.

You want stoic, faithful, inspiring, and tactically adept? Play Astartes.

I already do thanks lots, but the point I want to get rid of is that they're such fanatical zealots that they'll just chase after the enemy and sacrifice themselves in such pointless ways and leave the other faithful like guard and civvies to suffer the consequences, a la that Ciaphas Cain book with them in and at least one other I'm sure but my memory fails

You say that like it's a bad thing.

They're martyrs. It's kind of what they do.

What about the death watch?In one of my books they say the run spec. ops. for the Inq.

Again, define "special ops."

If you're talking about point insertion, sweep and clear, or small-scale take and hold operations, absolutely, the Deathwatch does exactly that. Specifically for the Ordo Xenos, not the Inquisition as a whole.

If you're talking about stealth reconnaissance or wetwork, that'd fall under the purview of the Officio Assassinorum.

The Deathwatch, clandestine as they are, are still Space Marines clomping about in power armor. They're not stealthy or subtle.

I guess the problem I have is the way its portrayed i.e that they're not selflessly sacrificing themselves, its just that they're monumentally stupid and ignorant of the causes of their actions, but I guess this is all down to the lack of actual Sisters themed books/fluff, all the things I've read have been from the marine/guard/civvie perspective and so its not focussing on the sacrifice just the problems they cause the protagonists.

And it is a bad thing if they go off on one leaving a hole in pdf lines for nids to go eat people in a chapel, how could that not be a bad thing?

Because that's awesome.

And the cardinal rule of 40k is that if it's cool enough, logic need not apply.

So there.

SaintHazard wrote:Because that's awesome.

And the cardinal rule of 40k is that if it's cool enough, logic need not apply.

So there.

Ok, let me get this straight, you think its cool that the sisters only get portrayed as daft, and do things that directly endanger other less militant faithful?

Each to their own but that suggests to me you like them to look stupid, rather than fanatically devoted.

Or am I reading this wrong?

I think its important to add context since Melissa quoted me out of context.

My quote comes out of a discussion on the new Caestus boarding ship. Melissa asserted that Sisters of Battle should have them. I said they shouldn't necessarily have them, since the Sisters of Battle's modus operandi for operations is not one that lends itself to being classified as shock troops, which the Caestus is immediately designed for. This led to a discussion of what makes Marines shock troops and Sisters of Battle not.

I do not deny that the Sisters of Battle are a power house or that they conduct themselves as the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, but just being zealots willing to charge into battle and wearing heavy armor, doesn't mean they fit the definition of shock troops.

aka_mythos wrote:1: They are not within the military hierarchy
2: nor can the assert command like Space Marines can
3: They lack both rules wise and fluff wise an insertional capability that would put them at the forefront of larger formations
4: The "first in" nature of the Space Marines has always been a component who they are, so it goes without say that they are shock troops.
5: In the fluff marines are noted as operating in the smaller better equiped teams necessary to properly engage in boarding actions from boarding craft, SoB are not.

I shall elaborate...
1. Sisters of Battle while a paramilitary orgnization, from legal stand point they are Military. It is like how the CIA run around Iraq and Afganistan in para-military units, but they are not military. Just as the CIA is a civilian authority, the SoB are an ecclesiarchical authority, both have their own powers but are not in a military chain of command of the military, they each require authorization from a higher authority President, general, or Inquisitor.

2. Imperial Guard do not have to listen to a Space Marine because he is in a different command structure. Just as a Navy ensign doesn't have to take operational orders from an Army officer. The Space Marines though are noted as taking command of Planetary Defense Forces. Sister of Battle, while shown fighting side by side other forces, are more often then not taking command of Adeptus Arbites, once again pointing to the distinction of their separate origins for authority. Simultaneously SoB do not have the autonomous military authority to wage battle, their authority comes from the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisitors not the authority of the full council of the High Lords of Terra.

3. There is a distinction here between being a frontline force and being a vanguard force. Shocktroops are at the heart of a vanguard, who are specifically tasked with making penetrating strikes to weaken critical points in an enemy line, so that the greater mass of the army may advance. Space Marine and shocktroops are also used to make hit and run strikes at enemy targets. The faster moving capabilities of the Space Marine forces give them the ability to do more than just lead the charge and give them many roles.

4. Here I'm speaking of the nature and capabilities of the Marines, this not to say they are always the first to arrive on a planet, as Melissa infers, but that they are the first into a geographic region or first into an enemy stronghold, when they are present.

5. Again this is not to say that boarding, like Melissa infers, are a defining characteristic of shocktroops. The critical part of the above statement however is that they can function in smaller autonomous teams in a oranizationally smaller and quick to react formation, that these are characteristic of shocktroops as well special ops, but not of SoB.

Yes the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard have shock troops, they're called Strom Troopers. I never asserted there weren't other shock troops, just that SoB are not congruent to that function.

It boils down to this Melissa thinks SoB should have a Caestus boarding ship because the SoB are shock troops. I say the fact they don't have Caestus boarding ships is symptomatic of SoB not fitting a organizational structure that could employ such a craft.

Its rarely directly addressed but the Ordo Hereticus and by extension SoB deal predominantly with the threats of mutants and influxes of dangerous psykers, that both of those point to the civilian population as their main concern as threats. Coming down to a planet to purge all of those heretics from a planet, while trying to leave intact critical infrastructure, is not a small scale or speedy operation. In such a blanket operation there would be no need to have a space to planet insertional capability in line with a Caesus boarding ship, since you're talking about landing thousands and thousands of personel and not squad operations. The scope of their target is in some ways too large for what a shock troop unit would be used for.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:SoB utilize the same type of landers the IG use

Cite your source.

Codex Sisters of Battle, you see larger vehicles and large landers. Those things are more characteristic of the Imperial Guard, since all marine equipment comes planet side by lighter insertional means like teleporter, droppod, or thunderhawk and the SoB equipment wouldn't fit on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the bigger topic here... a chapter of marines are not special forces... Deathwatch are special forces, Sternguard and Vanguard could be used by a chapter as special forces, but not necessarily. Today most special forces originate from the shock troops of the past. The critical difference between special forces and shock troops is a heightened autonomy that allows them to focus on the clandestine in conducting warfare against strategic targets rather than tactical targets.

SaintHazard wrote:They're martyrs. It's kind of what they do.

No, what martyrs do is die, often needlessly. Sisters of Battle are holy warriors of the Emperor. They don't need to die, they need to make their enemies die for them.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:They're martyrs. It's kind of what they do.

No, what martyrs do is die, often needlessly. Sisters of Battle are holy warriors of the Emperor. They don't need to die, they need to make their enemies die for them.

Mel I am 100% with you on this. They should be self sacrificing when they its necessary (holding that hive while the populace escapes like you mentioned earlier) but not just throwing themselves to their deaths like some group of amazingly daft, power armoured, depressed Lemmings (as all BL stuff seems to show them as). On that note but a little Off Topic, Mel do you know of any books that are from their perspective (and hopefully a bit less demeaning than the representations I've seen thus far)?

Faith and Fire is the only one I'd recommend.