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I'm not saying they should die needlessly, but if completing their mission requires throwing themselves at the enemy and dying so that someone else doesn't have to, then yeah. That's in their job description.

And then they're not just "dead Sisters," they're martyrs.

Martyrs do not die needlessly - that's the exact opposite of the definition of "martyr."

Martyrs die for the good of others. And Sisters do that. In spades.

Yeah, but if you look at my example it show sisters going nuts and nearly screwing over a load of refugee's sheltering in a chapel, just so they could throw themselves at a swarm, and you seemed to react positively to that, hence it sounded to me like you wanted them to just throw themselves stupidly at the enemy and die.

I think that to answer this question you need to exactly define what is a shock troop. But i would say SM are special forces.

DEATH89 wrote:Yeah, but if you look at my example it show sisters going nuts and nearly screwing over a load of refugee's sheltering in a chapel, just so they could throw themselves at a swarm, and you seemed to react positively to that, hence it sounded to me like you wanted them to just throw themselves stupidly at the enemy and die.

Well no one said individual Sisters were smart.

So that time they didn't do they job. Like at all.

But the whole zealotry thing needs to stay. Maybe make them smarter about how they throw around that holy wrath.

SaintHazard wrote:Well no one said individual Sisters were smart.

Actually GW did. Sisters are "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"-- GW's exact words. If stupidity is amongst those virtuous traits, then that says a lot of things about GW and none of them good.

wait the sisters are the good of humanity? I thought or at least it seemed that they were every thing thats bad about humanity

It's on the first page of C:WH-- they're supposed to be examples of everything good about humanity.

yet they use Arco Flagellants among other things and they routinely burn people who could of just been accused of any thing

That's the rather twisted version of 'good' that we've got in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future!

The Sisters do not perform arco-flagellation, or command arco-flagellants in battle. That is the Imperial Church's job (indeed, priests are the only ones allowed to control arco-flagellants). Same with Penitent Engines.

As for burning them alive, would you rather the Sisters let them live so that the Inquisition can... interrogate them? Frankly in most peoples' cases, burning them alive is a much cleaner death. Even without the religious implications of purifying their soul, it's far more pleasant than what they might have suffered under the hands of the Inquisition. Furthermore, Sisters are much more likely to defend civilians than to burn them alive, and it is only those who are under suspicion (in 40k, this suspicion is more often than not justified) who are in any danger. The Sisters Hospitalier in particular are revered by the populace.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Well no one said individual Sisters were smart.

Actually GW did. Sisters are "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"-- GW's exact words. If stupidity is amongst those virtuous traits, then that says a lot of things about GW and none of them good.

By and large, sure. But any time you get a lot of people in one place, all believing in the same thing, stupidity will, from time to time, ensue.

I dunno about you, but I play the Imperium because they're the bad guys.

Does that mean anyone else is the good guy? Nah.

40k is beautiful in that its creators delved into human nature and decided that all sentient creatures are bastards.

I like that. 40k is a universe where bad guys kill bad guys, and everyone proclaims themselves the good guys.

Maybe. But I like to think that the faction I'm playing, whichever one it is that I am playing at the time (Be it Orks, Guard, or Sisters) are actually competent.

One reason I like to cadian guard is because they have CREEEED! (bad way to use but I had to)

I refuse to believe that organizations of human beings are competent.

It's a pretty good rule of thumb, worked for me so far.

Pessimism and misanthropy are amusing, but while that might be true of the rela world I at least would like to think that in a fantasy environment, competence in humans is a possibility

Then I would recommend Star Trek, or perhaps Battlestar Galactica, where individual heroics compliment mass cooperation and the day is always saved.

I like the grim darkness of the far future because it doesn't work that way.

Actually it does work this way if you read the 40k fiction. Or if you play Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch.

Sisters don't have much of their own fiction. Most of the non-Sisters fiction depicts them as slowed and incompetent.

Notable exceptions to commonplace rules.

Diamonds in the rough, if you will.

Flukes that are notable enough to make it into stories. We have those in real life, you know.

But by and large, the Imperium works quite like the modern world: the rich are seperated from the poor by orders of magnitude and beaurocrats ruin everything for everyone else.

After all, in a galaxy of millions of planets, each with billions of inhabitants, someone somewhere IS going to get it right once in a while, and because that's the exception, not the rule, that's what they write the stories about!

Which is a nice supposition and all, but in truth humans in 40k are nowhere near as incompetent as you seem to claim. The bureaucracy in place, though labyrinthine, is actually rather effective for running millions of worlds each of which have a different culture and a different ruling style. They have to keep track of countless trillions of humans in imperfect situations, and for the most part it actually works.

Which is more than we can say about modern bureaucracy.

Until a planet with a population of billions is destroyed because there may have been a cult to Slaanesh somewhere on the Eastern continent possibly maybe.

Mostly because a cyclonic torpedo is easier and more cost effective than sending an Inquisitor.

This is a universe where "mechanized regiments" are "mechanized" in that APCs take them to the battlefield, then leave because the APCs are more valuable than the men.

I really don't think it's any better than today. Just bigger.

SaintHazard wrote:Until a planet with a population of billions is destroyed because there may have been a cult to Slaanesh somewhere on the Eastern continent possibly maybe.

So, what was that you said about rare occurrences in a previous post now? Are you going to continue standing by that statement, or does this post mean you retract it?

This one is far, far rarer than things actually going right of the Imperium. The Imperium does not like to destroy worlds or wipe them of their population.

But my second example is about as common as it gets.

Just about anytime you see a Guard regiment deploying in a combat zone.

Which is often.

I've read far more fluff where Chimeras stay to deliver fire support than leave, so I would have to ask you for a citation for that assertion.

edit: Also, let's try and steer this back on topic.

Where all the Chimeras stay? Enough to transport several thousand men? I don't think so.

One or two per platoon, maybe.

I still ask for a citation.

No, I anti-cited you. There's no quid pro quo here.

Then you concede you are wrong? Good, let's move back on topic

Burden of proof lies upon the accuser, not the accused! Show me an example where it aw you're right I lost this one.

Anyway, what the hell is the topic at this point?

The first and third Ciaphas Cain books are the first examples that spring to my mind.

The first book has them only leave the Chimeras behind because of the rough terrain of a heavily bombarded city sector, so they had to use sentinels instead. The third book has them use them as proper tnansports and fire support in several occasions.


The topic is still the same as it always was-- what do you classify the various armies of the Imperium as?

storm trooper/elysian are Special forces, Steel legions/ Cadian shock troops = shock troops thats for the IG, I dont know if you could classify any other regiments as one or the other, but those are the give aways