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I didn't want to drag the other thread off topic. This side discussion is about which roles Sisters and Space Marines fill.

aka_mythos wrote:1: They are not within the military hierarchy
2: nor can the assert command like Space Marines can
3: They lack both rules wise and fluff wise an insertional capability that would put them at the forefront of larger formations
4: The "first in" nature of the Space Marines has always been a component who they are, so it goes without say that they are shock troops.
5: In the fluff marines are noted as operating in the smaller better equiped teams necessary to properly engage in boarding actions from boarding craft, SoB are not.

Edits are mine, I numbered it because I didn't feel like using multiple quotes (I hate reading through them so I don't want to use them myself).

1: Neither are Space Marines. In fact, Space Marines are FAR more separate from the Imperium in almost every way than the Sisters are-- the Sisters are inseparably a part of the Imperium, servants of the Imperial Cult which guides the spirit and mindset of its citizenry.

2: No, Space Marines cannot assert authority over the Imperial Guard-- not legal authority at any rate. They might be able to use their reputation to good effect, but much the same Sisters can exert religious authority, which has the same effect. A Guard commander might defer to a Space Marine. Just like they might defer to a Battle Sister. But they don't have to.

3: Fluffwise that's where they always are. I do not know where you get the idea that Sisters are not front line troops whereas Marines are. Marines do not have the numbers or equipment for front-line combat. That is not what they do-- they function similar to special forces, striking at valuable targets and withdrawing before the enemy can strike back, and then moving on to the next target.

4: Not really, Marines do not always arrive first. Quite a bit of Marine fluff has them arriving in a "big damn heroes" moment to rescue the Guard forces from a dire situation (to the point where it becomes a cliche). Regardless, this does not define a "shock trooper". "Shock troops" are frontline units that are designed to hit the enemy as hard as possible in order to break their lines open-- the grenadiers/sturmgrenadiers of WWI/WWII are a good example, soldiers equipped with short-ranged weapons and grenades who stormed enemy lines attempting to take a position rapidly. Just like Sisters-- who rapidly advance in fast-moving Rhinos and Immolators, and then attack with short-ranged firepower via bolters, stormbolters, flamers, and meltaguns.

5: Again, this is not really something that defines what a Shock Troop is. Boarding action is done by marines (as in soldiers aboard naval vessels)-- actually, not all boarding action done by the Imperium involves Marines, most of it doesn't (just like most combat doesn't involve Marines), as the Imperial Navy has its own boarding crew.

SoB utilize the same type of landers the IG use

Cite your source.

I'd put SM down as a specialist force, designed to deal with extreme threats, kind of like a veteran or specialist regiment in a modern-day army. Therefore they fill a lot of roles, not least that of cool super-soldier, which is obligatory in almost every sci-fi franchise.
I jest, but in seriousness, I'd compare them to something like the SAS or Navy Seals.

The SOB, on the other hand, are in some ways even more specialist than the SM. They are used only by the Inquisition, and so I'd say fulfil an even more niche role; that of a force for inquisitors to call upon in the direst circumstances. They're not as physically godlike as SM, but thats because they don't need to be. After all, they aren't used for the same role.

In summary,
SM=Crack troops - broad application
SoB=highly specialised troops - narrow application

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:They are used only by the Inquisition

Err, what? No.

Go read C:SoB and C:WH... they are used by the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost, to propagate its Wars of Faith (often declared in support of an Imperial Crusade, such as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade), defend important religious sites, and generally fight the enemies of the Imperium. The Inquisition only rarely uses Sisters, because the Inquisition's job is investigative in nature (Sisters are extremely unsubtle).

Oh? Whoops, my error.

Mind you, the Inquisition DOES have use for such an unsubtle hammer of an organization. Investigating a cult and finding out its location and the location of all its members-- then having the Sisters strike at them, brutally slaughtering them in front of lots of witnesses-- does a good job of spreading fear of disobeying the law and religious decrees. Which is useful. But the first and most important part is actually finding the cult. The latter part can be done with any Imperial military force I think (Guard can certainly devastate a corrupted section of a hive to set an example, and certainly Marines are capable of such strikes). So I can't say it's really the primary use of Sisters.

In a combined forces army, with Guard, Sisters, and Marines, I think the ideal solutionw ould be this:

Guard as the main line to form a rock of stability and long-ranged firepower (The anvil, so to speak, as well as its own hammer), Sisters as the vanguard to break enemy lines and storm their fortifications (thus shock troops) with short-ranged firepower, and Marines deep striking to hit valuable targets and decapitate the enemy leadership (often literally).

In the end, both have to be able to function as Shock Troopers and Special Forces.

I think Sisters are way more likely to be used as shock troopers than marines. Mainly because of the fact SoB outnumber SM so are much more expendable.

SoB are almost as well equipped (factoring in genetic alteration as well) as SM, have just as good training, and immaculate discipline.

Space Marines have to be shock troops less often than part of small organized teams but are still required to fulfil that duty often enough. Crusading chapters will be on the front-lines of their battles constantly. But even then, within that structure there are going to be groups of marines that organize into small teams and perform surgical strikes

I would also argue that both a Sister and a SM are at their peak effectiveness when they get to function as part of a small strike team.

Melissia wrote: In a combined forces army, with Guard, Sisters, and Marines, I think the ideal solutionw ould be this:

Guard as the main line to form a rock of stability and firepower, Sisters as the vanguard to break enemy lines and storm their fortifications, and Marines deep striking to hit valuable targets and decapitate the enemy leadership (often literally).

Probably, as this role would work well with power-armoured troops of any sort. However, SM do have a habit of dropping out of the sky, so I think their role would indeed be like what you've stated.

Well, IIRC only Astartes can reliably survive Drop Pod insertion, so that gives them their true unique ability I think.

Melissia wrote:I didn't want to drag the other thread off topic. This side discussion is about which roles Sisters and Space Marines fill.

aka_mythos wrote:1: They are not within the military hierarchy
2: nor can the assert command like Space Marines can
3: They lack both rules wise and fluff wise an insertional capability that would put them at the forefront of larger formations
4: The "first in" nature of the Space Marines has always been a component who they are, so it goes without say that they are shock troops.
5: In the fluff marines are noted as operating in the smaller better equiped teams necessary to properly engage in boarding actions from boarding craft, SoB are not.

Edits are mine, I numbered it because I didn't feel like using multiple quotes (I hate reading through them so I don't want to use them myself).

Ok, I'm going to bite the bullet and agree with mythos here.

1. Space Marines ARE within the hierarchy, they are right above the Imperial Guard. They are seperate in that they can choose whether or not to respond, or how to respond, but they are still within that hierarchy, as right above them is the Inquisition, which is definitely within the hierarchy. Sisters themselves fall under the Ecclesiarchy, who are also within the hierarchy.

2. A Space Marine Chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, and can call upon Guardsmen Regiments and request aid from the Inquisition. A Canoness serves wherever The Ecclesiarchy sends her, or an Inquisitor demands her.

3. Ok, not agreeing with this one, really.

4. I completely agree here. Even if they aren't the "first in", they are used for quick insertions planetside in a lightning-assault to cripple the enemy, much like shock troops. In addition, they are often used to hit as hard as possible. I think the term Special Forces doesn't apply here because they are capable of both attack, defense, and many other types of warfare that I think Special Forces is too narrow to define.

5. While Space Marines aren't always involved in boarding actions, I'm sure the Sisters can engage in a boarding assault, if necessary. However, the Space Marine Strike Cruisers and other ships are often noted for their use of boarding craft. As the novel Soul Hunter puts it "it's deadliest and most feared weapons were already leashed into their deployment pods and awaiting the moment of launch." (Referring to the Strike Cruisers)

Yeah, pretty much.
So, so far:
Astartes: surprise assault force
Sisters: Frontline heavy infantry

Due to the drop pods, of course.

You are probably more likely to find Sisters slugging forward with Guardsman on the front lines. Leading with religious zeal and purifying flame.

Although chapters such as the Black Templars could potentially be seen in a similar position, or the Ultramarines with their PDF.

Religion would probably sway more Imperial Commanders to follow the Sisters lead, possibly with an element being based out of fear as well.

They are equally as good at breaking the moral of any Traitor or Xeno on the front lines.

Both can fill most roles well, so it's completely situational.

Cryonicleech wrote:[snip]

1. No, they're quite outside the Adeptus Munitorum-- which runs the Imperial military. Sisters are, as well.

2. Yes, they can REQUEST aid. Aid does not have to be given-- that it often is given is a mark of respect to the chapter, rather than a symbol of duty. The Guard has its own objectives, and the Marines have theirs-- these often coincide... but not always.

3. And why not? Space Marines do fight on the front lines, but that is not where they excel, yes? The reason Marines are written as fighting on the front lines is because "it sounds cool", but it's not what they're best at. It's not something they can do better than anyone else.

4. I don't think we're agreeing on what a shock trooper is, then. To me, "shock troop" is reminiscent of WWII tactics-- for example, the Soviet Shock Armies (thus the name), which spearheaded offensives on the eastern front. They were assault oriented units (in the sense of short-ranged firefights and house-to-house fighting) which were effectively the vanguard of the army.

5. Battlebarges / Strike Cruisers aren't as heavily armed as Imperial Navy ships, they're designed for rapid deployment of Astartes forces via drop pods, teleportation, or thunderhawks. Thus, when threatened they must use this offensively-- and thankfully for them it works well enough.

Seems like a number war then. (Not that this is a war, of course, =P)

1. Hmm, while they are not within the official body of the Adeptus Munitorum, they do still factor into the Imperium's military might.

2. Yes, but the fact that they have the option to call upon aid at all means that they have some weight in the Imperium, which is more than a Cannoness can do, if we're going on comparisons.

3. I wouldn't say they don't excel on the front line. They were on the front lines during the Great Crusade, and while times have changed in that they no longer are the spearhead of the Imperium, I don't think they've diminished in skill in front-line warfare.

4. In terms of being the spearhead, they were in the Great Crusade, but it would be correct that in the 41st Millennium, under your definition they are not shock troops. My definition is more of a unit that hits hard and strikes quickly, and it can be argued that they are the vanguard of many planetary assaults. And if I'm not mistaken, aren't Marines the supposed masters of the short-ranged fire-fight?

5. That's certainly true. However, for the purposes of determining if they are shock troops, I would say that since they are

A: In a short ranged-firefight (Most ships, excluding craftworlds, are pretty cramped)

B: Are the vanguard of the assault (generally, they're not always though)

and C: They are assault-oriented, and are assaulting the enemy ship

Cryonicleech wrote:[snip]

1. Same with the Sororitas then.

2. Actually the Canoness can easily do so, as Guard forces are often used in Wars of Faith and Crusades.

3. During the crusades each legion had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Marines. That is certainly enough for a front line force. Deploying at company-level, Marines cannot effectively do frontline combat like the Guard or Sisters can-- they don't have the numbers. They might be able to function as the vanguard of an attack, but there's far better uses for them than that (and Sisters do that better due to their numbers and therefor their ability to absorb casualties).

4. My sisters dispute that on a regular basis in tabletop. Sisters aren't as good in an assault, yes, but in 3-12" range shooting very little can outdo them-- if anything can.

5. So that just means it's more comparable to, say... a modern special forces unit assaulting a large complex, than to shock troops.

Melissia wrote:3. During the crusades each legion had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Marines. That is certainly enough for a front line force. Deploying at company-level, Marines cannot effectively hold a line like the Guard or Sisters can-- they don't have the numbers.

Yeah, pretty much. Again, you only read about this sort of thing happening in the fluff because it sounds cool. In practical terms, even the most powerful and skilled soldiers can be swamped by hordes of inferior troops - indeed, it's one of the great lessons of warfare. Only under special circumstances does the reverse happen.

4. My sisters dispute that on a regular basis in tabletop. Sisters aren't as good in an assault, yes, but in 3-12" range shooting very little can outdo them.

One of my regular opponents has an SoB army and it has been proven time and again to be able to go toe-to-toe with marines in a short-range firefight. In terms of shooty stats, SM and SoB are pretty much equal. SoB have less toughness, sure, but they have those weird holy powers to help them.

1. Fair enough

2. Also true

3. Marines have been forced on the defensive for a while now, Battles like Macragge show that even with only 100 marines (yes, the chapter's best and brightest, but a comparable Soroitas force of the same level of veterancy and numbers would have more trouble holding, I think) the Marines were able to hold off a Tyranid advance which was massive in number.

4. Certainly true, but Astartes units (Grey Hunters, CSM, Marines, etc.) have the advantage at T4. Sure, it's small, but it's an advantage nonetheless. I'd also advocate Dire Avengers with Bladestorm, but then again, I think they're the real masters of short-ranged firefights...

5. Also true, point conceded.

∞. Some arguments can never be won with some people, to the point where they in fact become pointless.

While true, IIRC wasn't their first company wiped out to a man on Macragge?

Alpharius wrote:∞. Some arguments can never be won with some people, to the point where they in fact become pointless.

Such is the futility of online discussion.

We all secretly love a bit of it though don't we... from time to time...

Melissia wrote:
2. Actually the Canoness can easily do so, as Guard forces are often used in Wars of Faith and Crusades.

No, they're actually not. The Guard are only used in "Wars of Faith" with the Munitorium's approval. The Ecclesiarchy has absolutely no control whatsoever over the Guard's deployment.
What you're talking about are the Ecclesiarchy's exploitation of a grey area where they train up Pilgrims to defend themselves while supplying them with weaponry.

Crusades are a completely different beast which require the joint approval of the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition, the Mechanicus and the Munitorium.
And as an aside, your average Guard Commanders are far far more likely to defer to an Astartes Commander in the field than they would a Sororitas. Sororitas are fanatics who more often than not have no real tactical expertise in large scale combat, just operations against cultists.

3. During the crusades each Legion had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Marines. That is certainly enough for a front line force. Deploying at company-level, Marines cannot effectively do frontline combat like the Guard or Sisters can-- they don't have the numbers. They might be able to function as the vanguard of an attack, but there's far better uses for them than that (and Sisters do that better due to their numbers and therefor their ability to absorb casualties).

The Sisters are okay in a vanguard role, but they sure as hell can't do frontline combat like the Guard. Sisters are absolutely useless in anything outside of defending temples or being used against Psykers on the field.

5. So that just means it's more comparable to, say... a modern special forces unit assaulting a large complex, than to shock troops.

Again, no. They're more comparable to a SWAT team than an actual military Special Forces unit.

I certainly don't come here to win people over to my side, just to express my opinion. The very act of debate is enjoyable when both sides are civil, and provide coherent arguments for their positions. I try and support my own as well as possible, and sometimes I fail (which I hope does not happen very frequently, but I cannot judge my own arguments without bias). When that happens I admit it, re-evaluate my position, then move on.

Anyway, back on topic...

Kanluwen wrote:[snip

2a: Just like Marines, then.
2b: If you honestly believe that Sisters only ever fight against cultists, you are sorely mistaken.
3: Going to finish that thought? I do wish to know the entirety of the point I am to respond to.
5: Space Marines are not law enforcement personnel.

2a) Nope. Marines don't need any form of approval to conduct operations, period. They do it all on their own accord. They don't need anyone's actual help, for the most part--unless they're fighting a prolonged campaign.

Sisters can't do diddily without the Munitorium affording them Imperial Navy support or the Inquisition strongarming the Navy into giving them actual transport craft. Without that, your precious Sisters are effectively stranded on one world.

Just like the Guard.
2b) If you honestly believe the Sisters are actually useful against anything except Cultists, you're sorely mistaken. They're "trained" zealots. You'd find better shock troops in the ranks of Al Qaeda today than those crazed wenches.

3) Thought's finished, but you'll just reply to it with "hurrrrrr, Sisters can do everything Marines can but better!". They can't, end of story.

5) And mine wasn't a remark about Marines. It was about Sisters. Sisters are glorified PDFs with Power Armor and the backing of zealots.

Okay, I saw your edit.

3: Then you are wrong there as well. Sisters have been involved in every major conflict the Imperium has participated in since their formation.

-- The Black Crusades (not much information here aside from their presence, and therefor nothing to support your argument)
-- Armageddon (one Order's troops wiped out, but the other Order's troops were on the offense along with Guard and Astartes forces, and they were successful in that endeavor)
-- The Tyrannic invasions (many places defended successfully, only known defeat on Okassis and even that one was considered a strategic victory as they held the swarm off long enough to evacuate the entire population of the planet)
-- Sabbat Worlds Crusade (again, lack of information)

And so on. Actually, four of the six founding Sisters (the other two were non-violent) were said to have started crusades to retake sectors lost to the Imperium since the Great Crusade, but again there's almost no information on that.

The way I see it is that SOB are an elite force with a specific task. They fight mainly against humans (the ecclesiarchy doesn't fight Xenos much as they can't be converted so can be left to the otehr forces) and most of their battles are meant to bring rogue planets back into the imperium. When they do fight aliens it's because they have attacked a shrine world.

They don't have a role, that can't be covered by another imperial force. The only reason they exist is because the Ecclesiarchy need a force which they can call upon quickly and that will obey them excactly. They are like elite IG which makes them different to play, but in a war you could send in a large force of IG or a small SM force and they could do the same job eqully well.

SM are the elite special forces and shock troops. Everything they have is meant to make them look more intimidating. They may appear later in the fight but that is only for two reasons.
1. GW like marines to be the heroes, coming in at the last minute looks good.
2. Marines aren't meant to arrive first. They hold back until a point where one quck attack can change the course of the battle then they attack fast and hit hard.

When something needs to be done reliably the marines are the force best suited for it. Apart from numbers they are better at everything. Their scouts are better at infiltrating enemy lines than any other force and their ability to quickly take an objective is far better than any other imperial force.

4M2A wrote:but in a war you could send in a large force of IG or a small SM force and they could do the same job eqully well.

That depends on what kind of job you're talking about. Guard is going to have trouble when it comes to rapid assault, though they have the option to do that. Marines are going to have trouble holding a large amount of area, though they can still manage it. And so on and so forth.

Personally I prefer to see the armies looked at in unison, what they would excel at if you had the three forces working together. That way one can see their true specialties, what they have to offer the Imperium-- each one can get the job done by themselves, yet some each one gets certain jobs done better.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:3. During the crusades each legion had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Marines. That is certainly enough for a front line force. Deploying at company-level, Marines cannot effectively hold a line like the Guard or Sisters can-- they don't have the numbers.

Yeah, pretty much. Again, you only read about this sort of thing happening in the fluff because it sounds cool. In practical terms, even the most powerful and skilled soldiers can be swamped by hordes of inferior troops - indeed, it's one of the great lessons of warfare. Only under special circumstances does the reverse happen.

4. My sisters dispute that on a regular basis in tabletop. Sisters aren't as good in an assault, yes, but in 3-12" range shooting very little can outdo them.

One of my regular opponents has an SoB army and it has been proven time and again to be able to go toe-to-toe with marines in a short-range firefight. In terms of shooty stats, SM and SoB are pretty much equal. SoB have less toughness, sure, but they have those weird holy powers to help them.

What? The legions never had anywhere close to "millions of marines" each. Last time I looked The Ultramarines had the most when the Heresy started at somewhere over 20,000 marines. everyone else had less. Even if this was multiplied by ten for everyone there's still no way they had even hundreds of thousands each.

They also had the Imperial Army supporting them wherever they went, but I think we're going ot have to look up the most recent fluff to find out the correct numbers-- 20,000 seems very light indeed, as they would have needed around 1,000,000 surviving loyalists to start the Chapter system, wouldn't they?

-Sabbat Worlds Crusade the Sororitas were not involved in, at all. There was more of an Astartes presence than Ecclesiarchal, and that's with the confirmed presence of a reincarnated friggin' Saint. The only tie the Sororitas had to the Sabbat Worlds was the fact that hundreds upon hundreds of years prior, a woman who was a Shepherd was declared a Saint and led a force of fanatics to reclaim a series of worlds from a Chaos occupying force.

-Black Crusade, they were mostly involved in operations on the Eastern Fringe--after making a bid for the Ecclesiarchy to take control of the Cadian sector war effort, and being told to sit down and shut the hell up and listen to Logan Grimnar by Creed.

-Armageddon is a completely different story than anything we've got a record of. The majority of the Orders present were the equivalents of the Hospitaller, and were operating in a medical capacity not a combat capacity.

So you're wrong on that note.

And again:
Crusades != Wars of Faith. You need to start understanding that, and fast, if you want productive discussions.

Yes they did have support, but once again there's absolutely no way they had millions of marines or even hundreds of thousands of marines in legion.

Logistics themselves would make it impossible given that each started at 10000 and given the (relatively) short period of the crusade involving them and the primarchs coupled with the time it takes to properly produce a marine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:They also had the Imperial Army supporting them wherever they went, but I think we're going ot have to look up the most recent fluff to find out the correct numbers-- 20,000 seems very light indeed, as they would have needed around 1,000,000 surviving loyalists to start the Chapter system, wouldn't they?

Nah, if you read the most recent fluff only a few of the legions even had second founding chapters. The reason the number of SM is around 1 mil now is because of 10000 years of producing new chapters with the 5% tithe of gene seeds given to Mechanicus.

I don't pay much attention to fluff and I skipped over the last few posts, but I'm going to weigh in anyways 'cause I found it interesting.

The marines are like the U.S. marines - able to do any job up to and including army - level maneuvres. Their skill, training and equipment makes them both shock troops and special forces depending on what they're called to do. They have the numbers and tools for pinpoint action or large-scale warfare, and are stationed on ships to project their power.

It sounds like the SoB's are just the inquisition's version of SM's - able to do what they can do, just not at such a large scale. The inquisition just doesn't want to have to go through Chapter channels when it needs good troops fast.