Tac squad in rhino isn't a good idea?

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**Guitardian**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:contrast your flexibility in shooting with the guard player's near certainty of destroying what he's shooting at bc of orders and his ability to mass so many more lascannons.
Your 1 lascannon has a less than 1/4 chance of killing even the lightest targets in cover.

you said: Fighting IG is not all about the guns. Its also about the balance of different weapons in the army and how he is forced to deploy because of the choices he made to get those weapons.
Can you be more specific?

you said: And I reserve the right to call something ignorance on principle when...
insulting is against the rules. While you might not feel like it's insulting to say I'm ignorant, I do, and a moderator will probably agree if I decide to make an issue out of it.

You're right there are many possibilities and a new build that takes everyone by surprise is always possible. As in chess however there are a finite number of possibilities and the strongest choices are generally known to the best players. If you can think of something totally surprising and take the 40k world by storm then by all means do it. Until then though I'm going to assume that you don't have any special knowledge that is not being accurately reflected in the results of grand tournaments ard boyz etc. While you might feel like that's a close minded approach to the game I feel that we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Those builds are based on thousands of players playing thousands of games - their experience should be taken into account. What that experience suggests is that guard are shootier than marines. For the reasons we have been discussing.

AF

QFT
but you left out "thousands of dice".
-may the dice gods bless thee

**labmouse42**

Rhinos are the candy coated shell that keep your marines snug and fresh.

That shell is best eaten by a greater daemon.

**Dracos**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ugh. do you have something to contribute dracos or are you just trolling?

Don't mind if I do.

The rhino squad's primary strength is in being the hardest scoring unit the C:SM has to offer. For 205 points base, you get an AV11 shell on 10 MEQ. The option is still there to spit the force if you need to guard more objectives, but when you need to defend a single objective it can be very hard to move the 10 MEQ from it.

As to the issue of C:SM not being able to do an effective gunline, I would say that is false. Note my experience is with a mobile gunline, so that is what I am referring to. One thing you have to consider in analyzing the ability of C:SM to do a gunline, is their basic troop. The basic state line of in the C:SM is of relatively high quality, meaning you won't outnumber most opponents. He is built to be good but not excel at both shooting and assault, so any C:SM army is going to have to do both to some degree.

Knowing that, you have to realize that a basic principal of the C:SM gunline is not to out shoot every army in existence. The goal is to be able to out shoot every army that is not more shooty than you, and cause sufficient damage to the remaining armies to allow you to deliver your assault elements.

As a whole, regardless of particular build, C:SM attempts to out shoot everything it can't out assault, and out assault everything it can't out shoot. This is categorically different than say a Tau or IG army, which really just has to be able to out shoot. The type of army you build with C:SM simply dictates where on the scale you fall, and thus what kinds of armies you should try to out shoot or out assault.

**AbaddonFidelis**

I don't really disagree with anything in your post other than using the term "gunline" to describe a space marine army using that tactic.

my point is that if marines can't outshoot guard or tau it's silly to build a marine army that does nothing but shoot (gunline.) It's creating auto-loss situations against those armies.
AF

**Dracos**

Your position is based on the assumption that it is possible to build an SM army that does nothing but shoot. The basic marine is better in assault than the basic IG or Tau unit. Therefore, even if you equip every model you can with shooty weapons, the C:SM army will still have more assault strength than the IG army built to the same strategy.

**Brother-Thunder**

So, the jack of all trades, master of none soldier is shown at its greatest.

TO go to the rhino again, I enjoy the fact that my troops, already hard to kill, and impervious to all but tau small arms, move decently fast, and allow me to fire my special weapons out of the hatch when enemies stray too close.

Overall, a good vehicle to use if one wants to avoid dying.

**Captain Solon**

Grey Templar wrote:Rhino's are not for sitting back and popping heavy weapons out the hatch.

you also don't appear to be splitting your Tac squads. that might be why you don't know how to use rhinos or Razorbacks.

Thats not right.. I do split my squads. but with Plasma squad [that is, plasma cannon and rifle] usually I keep them back, holding objectives. [in MEQ games] as I'm used to playing a pretty close game, I usually do Razorback my Combat melta or bolter squads.

I keep two full strength squads, and 4 combat squads [2 full strength]. Usually, the Combat squads have melta/lascannon, but sometimes plasma/missile launcher, as launchers don't matter too much if they can't shoot. they're an excelent investment at 0 points.

**JSK-Fox**

Darn, I missed the ragefest.

Anyways, Marines are a highly effective unit with their METULL BAWKSES (I'm amazed it hasn't been said yet) and can overrun nearly any unit, be it guardsmen or nobz (more on that in a bit) and use both highly impressive shooting due to combat squadding to double the units you have, as well as various mech units, which the rhinos are able to at least count as (2 stormbolter shots ain't much, but it can kill stuff). Space Marines can often make a mess of the enemy in both assault and shooting, so never be afraid to assault, even if you will likely lose. You only need to last one round - long enough to make them lose their turn. 5 marines are often hardy and tough enough to survive that first round, if not winning it. Remember to outfit you combat squads as the need it, however, since a flamer on the squad that stays back and holds the objective isn't contributing to shots.

**Captain Solon**

yes... IN THERE METAL BAWKSES!

Sigh... I love DOW.

**AbaddonFidelis**

Dracos
you wrote: Your position is based on the assumption that it is possible to build an SM army that does nothing but shoot.
Yes. It is indeed possible.

you wrote: The basic marine is better in assault than the basic IG or Tau unit.
Negative. This is the math on a full strength tactical squad charging a 20 man guard squad with attached commisar. The short version is that the marines don't have a chance.

1st round:
Marines: 21 attacks 14 hits 10 wounds 7 casualties
Guard: 14 attacks 7 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (7) Guard (14) Marines win. Guard hold.

2nd round:
Marines: 9 attacks 6 hits 4 wounds 3 casualties
Guard: 11 attacks 6 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (4) Guard (11) Combat tied.

3rd round:
Marines: 6 attacks 4 hit 3 wounds 2 casualties
Guard: 9 attacks 5 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (1) Guard (9) Marines lose.

4th round:
Marines: 3 attacks 2 hit 1 wound 1 casualty
Guard: 8 attacks 4 hits 1 wound 0 casualties
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines are all dead.

The potency of a properly outfitted guard squad in close combat has been discussed in great, thorough, exhaustive detail on the ig blob thread. The beauty of the IG army in close combat is that they don't even have to customize to do it. They can be shooty as all hell and still beat face in close combat.
AF

**JSK-Fox**

Marines are able to fall back, and they would do so in that case after the second round if possible, leaving the guardsman squad stranded and soon to be dead. You also assumed that there were no power weapons for the squad of marines. Marines would typically charge into combat after firing their bolt pistols, causing about 7 or 6 hits, 5 or 4 wounds, and no saves. That reduces the hitting force of the guard by a significant margin, and would leave them crippled. If you were to give the guard special weapons, the space marines would get some too, and kill more of them.

Lasguns have a 1/18 or so chance (rough chance, I'm tired right now) of killing a marine, whereas a bolter has a 1/3 chance of killing a guardsman. Marines are good at gunlines. Simple.

**Guitardian**

Tactical Squads are the heart of Marine power IMO. My first 4th ed. game against my very experienced big bro I used nothing but. Split them into fives, all just Missiles and Flamers because that's what figs I had. They wiped out everything. Yeah I got lucky getting the first turn taking out that SoB organ thingy with a Krak missile, but other than that, they did just fine with their bolters, flamers, and missiles just blasting away.

Times change I guess, and the IG grew into the monster it is now, and SoB fall into distant memory for most folks, but the Tactical squad with a rhino for at least a brief burst of movement (afterwards its LOS blocking terrain so it's still cool) , especially in 5th edition and with split squads, you can do a lot with them. getting into rapid fire range with a drop n pop full of bolters will melt through any guard. People only worry about the 21 lascannon salute if they rely heavily on landraiders. If they rely heavily on just plain old boring tac squads they will chop the heavy weapon spam apart with bolters, and just leave the heavy/special/sarge weapons for specific tasks. Sorry LR, one of my squads brought a Multimelta, sorry horde, I have flamers, and so on.

**AbaddonFidelis**

wow. so much to disagree with....
1. why are my guardsmen not in cover? If you're going to assume you're playing against a 5 year old the conversation is kind of pointless.
2. give the marines a power weapon. won't make a difference.
3. if the marines get to shoot then the guard do too. they'll win there too. I left out shooting all together because we're looking at *assaults* specifically.
4. there are way more lasguns then there are bolters. but you knew that....
5. you conclude that marines are good at gunlines. this is a non sequiter (does-not-follow). Even if you were right about marines beating guard in assault (don't worry, you aren't) it would not follow that marines are good at gunlines. But you knew that, right

AF

**labmouse42**

Dracos wrote:Your position is based on the assumption that it is possible to build an SM army that does nothing but shoot. The basic marine is better in assault than the basic IG or Tau unit. Therefore, even if you equip every model you can with shooty weapons, the C:SM army will still have more assault strength than the IG army built to the same strategy.

What he said...

My marine army is a biker army with long range support (preds, dreads, typhoons, etc). Its a shooting army and I can out-shoot and out-maneuver most armies.

When I am playing one of the armies that can out-shoot me, I will rely on the marines innate toughness to make assaults the better solution.

And you know what? It works!

**Guitardian**

1. cover doesnt stop flamers ya five year old
2. dont give the marines a power weapon cuz their bolters do just fine. more points for more marines,
3. when guard shoot at marines, a couple guys may die, when marines shoot back 10 guys may die
4. have fun with your flashlight
5. if the marines can somehow eliminate the heavy threat (Lemans, Basis, heavy weaps) they would own guard with tactical squads in rhinos, which build terrain as they go. Just take out the dangerous bits as fast as you can, then go after the armorless grunts while shrugging off the shots of the mighty lasgun.

**Fifty**

Just out of interest, where are the 9 power attacks for the guard coming from?

**Raxmei**

Fifty wrote:Just out of interest, where are the 9 power attacks for the guard coming from?

Two sergeants and a commissar with power weapons. Two attacks base plus a bonus attack for two close combat weapons equals three power weapon attacks per model times three models equals nine.

**Sanctjud**

~~3 Commissars I believe.~~^What he said

__________________
For crying out loud, AF being AF. And he calls me repetitive.

His example is not balanced.
Tacticals are like 170, his blob squad is 200+ not even counting commissars w/ power weapons.
In addition, those Guard power weapons average 1.5, so they fluctuate between causeing 1 or 2 on average.
Was thinking a true blob and not half of one.

**AbaddonFidelis**

Guitardian
that's old guard. They're different now. Honestly.

Look this whole thing is off topic if y'all want to discuss marines vs guard start another thread.
AF

**Raxmei**

Sanctjud wrote:~~3 Commissars I believe.~~^What he said
__________________
For crying out loud, AF being AF. And he calls me repetitive.

His example is not balanced.
Tacticals are like 170, his blob squad is 200+ not even counting commissars w/ power weapons.
In addition, those Guard power weapons average 1.5, so they fluctuate between causeing 1 or 2 on average.

165 points for two squads, a commissar, and three power weapons by my count, not including any guns. Half hit, third wound, divide nine by six, and yeah, 1.5.

**Sanctjud**

Oh true, I was not thinking 2 squads, but 4.
My bad, but awesome sauce he won't see this unless someone quotes this, which is a win/win if someone does.

I am mistake, and stuffs been striked out.

**AbaddonFidelis**

i rounded all decimals up. The marines are causing more casualties than they should too. I think it balances but if someone wants to run it with decimals go ahead.

**JSK-Fox**

How about we do two different things, since we aren't talking about assaults, but GUNlines.

Marines go first.
Shooting at guard, with plasma gun and missile launcher. Sarge has Plasma Pistol.
14 Bolter shots, 9.24 hit, 6 are wounded, 6 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 9.47 casualties. (rounded to 9)

Guard retaliates, with 2 plasma guns and 2 autocannons.
13 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
4 Plasma shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 1.66 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
12 Lasgun (pistols and hwts included) shots, 6 hit, 2 wound, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
Total: 2.65 casualties. (rounded to 3)

Marines fire back, with the same weapons.
7 left.
8 Bolter shots, 5.28 hit, 3.49 wound, and 3.49 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 6.98 (rounded to 7)

Guard fires again, with no autocannons.
6 left.
4 Plasma shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 1.66 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
2 Laspistol shots, 1 hits, 0.33 wound, 0.11 die.
Total: 1.99 die. (Rounded to 2)

Marines attempt to finish them off.
5 left.
2 Bolter shots, 1.32 hit, 0.87 wound, 0.87 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 4.46 casualties.(Rounded to 4)

Guard makes a last stand.
2 left.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
Total: 0.22 casualties. (Rounded to 0)

Marines finish them off.
5 left.
2 Bolter shots, 1.32 hit, 0.87 wound, 0.87 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 4.46 casualties.(Rounded to 4) Overkill of 2.46

Marines win with half of them left.

Guard goes first.
Shooting at marines, with 2 plasma guns and 2 autocannons.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
4 Plasma shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 1.66 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
30 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 15 hit, 5 wound, 1.65 die.
Total: 5.08 casualties. (Rounded to 5)

Marines return fire, after losing quite a few.
5 left.
2 Bolter shots, 1.32 hit, 0.87 wound, 0.87 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 4.46 casualties.(Rounded to 4)
OR
Marines realize that if they stay they will die, and so they fall back.

Back to the comparation.

Guard fires back.
18 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
4 Plasma shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 1.66 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
22 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 11 hit, 3.63 wound, 1.20 die.
Total: 3.63 die. (Rounded to 4)

Marines make last stand.
1 left.
1 Plasma shot, 0.66 hit, 0.55 wound, 0.55 die.
Total: 0.55 die. (Rounded to 1)

Guard fires back.
17 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
4 Plasma shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 1.66 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
20 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 10 hit, 3.3 wound, 1.1 die.
Total: 3.53 die. (Rounded to 4) Overkill of 2.53

Guard wins.

HOWEVER, Marines are at 190 points, whereas guard is at 220. Without the Plasma, the Guard would probably not win. But I realized this too late, and I'm lazy.

**AbaddonFidelis**

lol. Even on the crazy assumption that the guardsmen are out of cover they're still winning half the time. Oh but wait they cost 30 points more so invalid! lol

look if you make a mistake and say something goofy just bow our gracefully. It happens. I won't hold it against you I promise

**JSK-Fox**

I made no mistake. They got, on average, 33% of their kills via plasma, and therefore, without it, they would do a lot worse. And remember, the Space marines were out of cover too, so don't complain about that.

**Tri**

Question, why am i seeing 20 IG? They can't be in a transport they're too big, so they sure as hell are getting shot before i charge power weapons. Also before the tactical squad charged ... wouldn't they shoot? With our 9 bolt pistols and flamer, killing 5 with the flamer and 2 with the pistols? (You can boost the flamers kills to 10+ simply by tank charging the rhino into them)

**JSK-Fox**

True, but I'm trying to give the IG a chance here.

**Tri**

JSK-Fox wrote:True, but I'm trying to give the IG a chance here.

I meant AbaddonFidelis unrealistic close combat. Yours i don't think would happen, simply because I would drive forward pop smoke and hopefully, jump out 8" shoot and assault them. If not then next turn. (and would hope to hit them with something else before that)

**AbaddonFidelis**

lol ok guys. I think I've pretty much said what I have to say here.

**JSK-Fox**

Good to know I did my calculations right, and probably did a realistic situation (for me at least).