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@ Abbadon:
The discussion was gunline vs gunline. Now you bring in a guard squad with commissar and power weapons. You would never see this in a gunline. If you brought an army built like that to the table, a gunline marine army would be able to outshoot you.

And thats ignoring the fact that your proposed squad vs squad had a more expensive guard unit.

You are just making scenarios that are biased to prove your point.

Try taking a gunline guard list and look at the infantry unit's strength in CC.

the thing is...

Guard have to spend alot of points to dominate the Gunline sphere and they do that at the expense of CC durability.

go ahead and stick those PWs in that blob squad.

that will be a couple less lascannons shooting at me.



it takes 2 Guard lascannons to equal 1 marine lascannon. asuming orders don't go off(which is a pretty OP system IMO)

Marines can be pretty confident that their weapons will hit the target even without TLing(which is easier to get in the marine codex). guard need mass and orders to be sure.



just because marines don't have as many weapons to throw down range doesn't mean they can't be shooty.

power weapons are 10 points a piece in the guard codex. You can buy 15 of them for the price of a single leman russ battle tank.

I guess that works.....This is the main reason I take Chimeras in my WH army. 5 Firing points! Then throw something good on them and have them blasting things to death from a safer AV12...

Anyway, I wouldn't say it's worth it. Might as well just use dev teams.

Templar
yeah but why wouldn't the orders go off? Guard are leadership 8 base, 9 with a commisar, and they can buy a vox caster for 5 points that lets them reroll. It's possible that the orders won't go through but they often do. The guardsman is the better shot.

I agree that marines can be shooty. But all this talk about them outshooting guard is just.... well.... you know.... crazy talk.
AF

Fixed so that point values are equal. There are no power weapons here, and if there were, more things would be taken by space marines.

Marines go first.
Shooting at guard, with plasma gun and missile launcher. Sarge has Plasma Pistol.
14 Bolter shots, 9.24 hit, 6 are wounded, 6 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 9.47 casualties. (rounded to 9)

Guard retaliates, with 2 plasma guns and 2 autocannons.
13 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
16 Lasgun (pistols and hwts included) shots, 8 hit, 2.64 wound, 0.87.
Total: 1.64 casualties. (rounded to 2)

Marines fire back, with the same weapons.
8 left.
10 Bolter shots, 6.6 hit, 4.36 wound, and 4.36 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 7.85 casualties. (rounded to 8)

Guard fires again, with no autocannons.
5 left.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
4 Lasgun shots, 2 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
Total: 0.44 casualties. (Rounded to 0)

Marines finish them off.
8 left.
10 Bolter shots, 6.6 hit, 4.36 wound, and 4.36 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 7.85 casualties. (rounded to 8) Overkill of 2.85.

Marines win with 8 of them left.




Guard goes first.
Shooting at marines, with 2 autocannons.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
34 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 17 hit, 5.61 wound, 1.85 die.
Total: 2.62 casualties. (Rounded to 3)

Marines return fire, after losing quite a few.
7 left.
6 Bolter shots, 4 hit, 2.64 wound, 2.64 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 6.13 casualties.(Rounded to 6)

Guard fires back.
16 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
22 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 11 hit, 3.63 wound, 1.20 die.
Total: 1.97 die. (Rounded to 2)

Marines make them pay.
5 left.
4 Bolter shots, 2.64 hit, 1.74 wound, 1.74 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 5.23 casualties.(Rounded to 5)

Guard fires back.
11 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
12 Lasgun shots (pistols and hwts included), 6 hit, 2 wound, 0.66 die.
Total: 1.43 die. (Rounded to 1)

Marines are hanging in there!
4 left.
2 Bolter shots, 1.32 hit, 0.87 wound, 0.87 die.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 4.36 casualties.(Rounded to 4)

Guard is looking pretty sickly.
7 left.
4 AC shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 die.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
4 Lasgun shots, 2 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
Total: 0.99 casualties. (Rounded to 1)

Just a few Marines left!
3 left.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 3.49 casualties. (Rounded to 3)

Guard are nearly dead!
4 left.
2 Bolt pistol shots, 1.32 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 die.
2 Laspistol shots, 1 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.11 die.
Total: 0.33 casualties. (Rounded to 0)

Marines just need to finish them off!
3 left.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 3.49 casualties. (Rounded to 3)

The Guard Comissar makes his last stand.
1 Bolt pistol shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.11 die.
Total: 0.11 casualties. (Rounded to 0)

Abaddon, where are your guardsmen now?
3 left.
Approx. 5 hit by frag missile, 3.3 are wounded, 2.17 die.
3 Plasma Shots, 2 hit, 1.32 wound, 1.32 die.
Total: 3.49 casualties. (Rounded to 3) Overkill of 2.49

Marines win!

Sure. Don't buy the marines a rhino or drop pod. Everyone knows that walking marines are where its at <rolls eyes> And leave the guardsmen out of cover. Because no guard player would think to use that <shoots self in the head>

I'm done with this thread. Peace.

I love simply testing, don't you? I could have buggered with them, not let them have that auto cannon by not giving one a plasma gun and instead a flamer, which on average kills 4 guardsmen a turn. You said you were done earlier.

Wow AF...is it that hard to see that there are situations where the Guardsmen are forced out of cover?

Wrecked rides/good angles/tanks shock/Lash(Pavane), are just some of the ways to get them out of cover...so...it's kinda funny you would shoot yourself in the head when it's really not that hard to see that it will come up and it's not as Black and White as you see....well....everything.

Especially when you have 50+ infantry models on the board.

if there is enough cover for every guardsmen to get into then there is enough for those SMs to get into and they will reach your lines more or less unscathed.


Guard actually prefer little cover to alot of cover as open firing lanes favor their large amounts of ranged weapons. Battle Cannons don't ignore cover so less is desirable.

I have loved reading this thread.
Good news is shooting yourself in the head with a lasgun you have a good chance of surviving.

IMO, it depends really on what is at stake. Based on AF's scenario, if the guardsmen really have to win the shooting fight, they almost certainly will, thanks to FRFSRF (underrated IMO). Any good guard player would probably see whats coming (A rhino with rapid firing marines) and most probably afford covers saves be it in a form of a chimera or something else. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the las gun is weak, but 60 shots of those at BS3 is nothing to laugh at.

In retrospect, if I were the guard player, and for some reason couldn't afford cover, id just charge those marines denying them those AP5 and flamer shots.

Loricatus Aurora wrote:I have loved reading this thread.
Good news is shooting yourself in the head with a lasgun you have a good chance of surviving.

I enjoyed disproving theories that 22 guard is better 10 marines at equal points just as much as you loved this thread.
And I've tried to kill myself with a lasgun before. I missed myself, and I hit and killed a squirrel! You'd think they'd have a 6+ from their fur!

Yuber wrote:IMO, it depends really on what is at stake. Based on AF's scenario, if the guardsmen really have to win the shooting fight, they almost certainly will, thanks to FRFSRF (underrated IMO). Any good guard player would probably see whats coming (A rhino with rapid firing marines) and most probably afford covers saves be it in a form of a chimera or something else. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the las gun is weak, but 60 shots of those at BS3 is nothing to laugh at.

In retrospect, if I were the guard player, and for some reason couldn't afford cover, id just charge those marines denying them those AP5 and flamer shots.

and if you had power weapons you'd more then likely win.

Oh my god, this thread has gone so far off topic...

Indeed