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Too many 3+ saves running around from Terrans. They aren't THAT advanced. I'd say 4+ for most standard stuff. Remember these guys aren't space marine quality, they're probably wandering in between normal guardsman and vet at best.

Surtur wrote:Too many 3+ saves running around from Terrans. They aren't THAT advanced. I'd say 4+ for most standard stuff. Remember these guys aren't space marine quality, they're probably wandering in between normal guardsman and vet at best.

From left to right, 4+, 3+,??
Which do you think the Terran Marine is closer to? A Terran Marine is about a foot taller than a human such as a sister of battle. Sure, not as massive as a Space Marine, but he still has incredibly large armor. Definitely more armored than the 4+ kasrkin or firewarrior armor, maybe even more armored than light power armor such as Sororitas power armor. They are definitely 3+.
Reapers might deserve 4+ armor as they have lighter armor.

Cept you forget that Starcraft is using realistic materials. Warhammer uses fantasy materials like adamantium and such.

Starcraft's marines are also fodder. A giant suit means lots of room for hostile environment protection (repirators, space ect). Just because it's big doesn't necessarily mean it's strong.

I am basing all weapon statistics on the fact that a heavy stubber (Strength 4 AP - 36" range Heavy 3) is explicitly stated by designer notes to be equivalent to a modern machine gun.

Except that out of universe quotes and designer intent don't enter into things when analyzing a universe based on what we see in the series. For example if a movie's designer tells you it takes place in Mexico and you're seeing snow and polar bears, the damn movie isn't in Mexico.

Mahtamori wrote:Your line of reasoning is flawed. It's not about how much energy there is in the shot, but how much energy is transferred to what area and in what manner. So a .50 cal Barret M82 fires shots with 20 KJ in them, I'll use that as an example. Which do you think do most damage; that .50 cal shot or a fluffy teddybear containing the same energy? Second question: which shot do you think does most damage to a human target; a .50 cal full metal jacket or a .50 cal hollow point? See where I'm going? Last question: what do you think does most damage; 500KJ spread over a 0,1mm radius area or 500KJ spread over 1cm radius area?
Next time you boil water, remember that it took over 33MJ/dl to get the water boiling.

Think of it from this perspective instead: what modern weapons are capable of damaging light vehicles. I'm not talking about Humvees (those things are actually pretty decently armoured), but at the same time I'm not talking civvy vehicles, either.

Now, a hand-held laser capable of sending a beam of only 1W (continuous fire) is capable of setting fire to living human skin. And incidentally seem to cost $300.

It depends on how exactly that fluffy teddy bear is storing the energy. For example that bear could be full of explosives, it could be super massive, or it could be fired at some crazy velocity (though in that case it burns up before reaching you). In any case your example is false as a lasgun is not a fluff teddy bear, and it is not a .50 cal bullet. It is a weapon that fires energy into you and will inflict far more damage than any non-explosive weapon we can equip a modern soldier with.

Inspite of all your false example you haven't actually mentioned that a lasgun is both highly penetrative, something neglected on the tabletop, and also causes you to explode when it hits you. This because a beam doesn't just drill a neat little hole as you might expect, instead the energy flash boils the liquid in your flesh causing you to explode violently as your flesh sublimates. That is also why laser weapons don't cauterize as most people expect that they would.

As for boiling water, that 33mJ/dl is spread over a long time, were it to be released instantly that water would explode very violently, if you don't beleve me be my guest in trying an experiment that would prove otherwise. But as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about I'm going to stop wasting time on you now.

Fetterkey wrote:I have played the campaign. While Marines don't melee in the game (anymore-- the alpha had bayonet animations similar to the Hydra or Roach's melee animation if the enemy gets too close), they do seem like they have the ability to do so based on various cutscene clips. In cutscenes, Tychus (who is, as you say, tougher than your average Marine) tears a jukebox off its mount, holds it over his head and throws it a fair distance with considerable force-- jukeboxes easily weigh hundreds of pounds. General Warfield (who is a tough guy, but also old), kills or knocks out a Hydralisk with nothing but his armor-assisted fist. That seems to merit strength 3(4) in my book, though I agree it could go either way. I'd say Terran Marines in armor are "low 4," while Space Marines in armor are "high 4."

Care to prove that it takes strength four to punch a Hydralisk to death? They're tough but we've never seen them prove that an unaided human couldn't kill them with a weapon in hand.





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ph34r wrote:

Surtur wrote:Too many 3+ saves running around from Terrans. They aren't THAT advanced. I'd say 4+ for most standard stuff. Remember these guys aren't space marine quality, they're probably wandering in between normal guardsman and vet at best.

From left to right, 4+, 3+,??
Which do you think the Terran Marine is closer to? A Terran Marine is about a foot taller than a human such as a sister of battle. Sure, not as massive as a Space Marine, but he still has incredibly large armor. Definitely more armored than the 4+ kasrkin or firewarrior armor, maybe even more armored than light power armor such as Sororitas power armor. They are definitely 3+.
Reapers might deserve 4+ armor as they have lighter armor.

So bigger equals better armored now? I guess I should tell the military that a single armored plate must be better than smaller ones because it's bigger. Not to mention the fact that Marine armor can be punctured by spines shot from a Hydralisk and those spines are not shown to be moving at super sonic speeds. They are also filled with holes by their own weapons. Space Marines, as shown in the fluff, as well as on the table top laugh off anything less than a lasgun and I've already shown that lasgun > modern rifles.

Highly pressurized, high-temperature streams of water can cut through any metal known to modern man. Don't underestimate the power of things which have suddenly become very, very hot (that's what an explosion is anyway, essentially).

Actually, the only reason flak armor is capable of absorbing lasbolts is because it's specifically designed to (as well as impact-absorbing, it's also ablative to guard against energy weapons). Modern body armor, or body armor designed without energy weapons in mind, would be almost useless against lasweaponry, if not actually worse than useless.

Norade wrote:So bigger equals better armored now? I guess I should tell the military that a single armored plate must be better than smaller ones because it's bigger. Not to mention the fact that Marine armor can be punctured by spines shot from a Hydralisk and those spines are not shown to be moving at super sonic speeds. They are also filled with holes by their own weapons. Space Marines, as shown in the fluff, as well as on the table top laugh off anything less than a lasgun and I've already shown that lasgun > modern rifles.

That's not Marines being bad, that's Hydralisks being good. Hydralisk spines can penetrate through multiple centimeters of "neosteel" armor-- 2 centimeters or more, even at maximum range.

Surtur wrote:Cept you forget that Starcraft is using realistic materials. Warhammer uses fantasy materials like adamantium and such.

Starcraft's marines are also fodder. A giant suit means lots of room for hostile environment protection (repirators, space ect). Just because it's big doesn't necessarily mean it's strong.

So you think that a full suit of "Neosteel" power armor is more close to ~50% armor plate coverage over cloth, than to a suit of ceramite armor that is nearly skin tight (SoB).

Yeah, I didn't think so.

For reference, this is how I evaluate body armor, at least for humans:

6+ armor: Leather, light flak (think Catachan), various rudimentary/scavenged armors
5+ armor: Standard military body armor protecting the torso and head (think Cadian)
4+ armor: Heavy military body armor, incorporating stronger armor as well as armoring areas besides just the torso and head (think Storm Trooper)
3+ armor: Power armor, protecting the entire body (think Space Marine or Sororita)
2+ armor: Extremely heavy or extraordinarily well-crafted power armor (think Terminator or Space Marine hero in artificer armor; nobody from Starcraft will get this)

Currently, I have Terran units with the following armors:

Vultures: 5+ armor (Pilot wears a heavy breastplate only, bike appears more armored but this is represented by a Toughness increase)
Ghosts: 5+ armor (Some kind of armored environment suit, but focused primarily on stealth rather than protection)
Reapers/Spectres: 4+ armor (Appears to be equivalent to carapace armor, perhaps heavier in the case of the Reaper, but almost certainly unpowered thanks to weight/speed/cost concerns)
Marines/Marauders/Medics/Firebats: 3+ armor (Power armor)

Fetterkey wrote:For reference, this is how I evaluate body armor, at least for humans:

6+ armor: Leather, light flak (think Catachan), various rudimentary/scavenged armors

Actually not even that much. Leather armor and other primitive armors are woefully unprotective.

In Dark Heresy, such "primitive" armors suffer rather heavily against any non-primitive weapons. 6+ is probably closer to modern military body armor at most. Actually it's probably better than modern military body armor, as I doubt our modern armor could stop a lasbolt.

Fetterkey wrote:

Norade wrote:So bigger equals better armored now? I guess I should tell the military that a single armored plate must be better than smaller ones because it's bigger. Not to mention the fact that Marine armor can be punctured by spines shot from a Hydralisk and those spines are not shown to be moving at super sonic speeds. They are also filled with holes by their own weapons. Space Marines, as shown in the fluff, as well as on the table top laugh off anything less than a lasgun and I've already shown that lasgun > modern rifles.

That's not Marines being bad, that's Hydralisks being good. Hydralisk spines can penetrate through multiple centimeters of "neosteel" armor-- 2 centimeters or more, even at maximum range.

Except that as I said that spine was moving at a very sub sonic speed thus proving the armor sucks.

ph34r wrote:So you think that a full suit of "Neosteel" power armor is more close to ~50% armor plate coverage over cloth, than to a suit of ceramite armor that is nearly skin tight (SoB).

Neosteel likely doesn't have the properties that allow the armor in 40k to withstand the punishment that it does. We've seen a subsonic spine puncture it, and know that .50 cal weaponry can as well. Given that stubbers of all types have AP - that should tell you something about Terran armor.

Fetterkey wrote:For reference, this is how I evaluate body armor, at least for humans:

6+ armor: Leather, light flak (think Catachan), various rudimentary/scavenged armors
5+ armor: Standard military body armor protecting the torso and head (think Cadian)
4+ armor: Heavy military body armor, incorporating stronger armor as well as armoring areas besides just the torso and head (think Storm Trooper)
3+ armor: Power armor, protecting the entire body (think Space Marine or Sororita)
2+ armor: Extremely heavy or extraordinarily well-crafted power armor (think Terminator or Space Marine hero in artificer armor; nobody from Starcraft will get this)

Cute list, but just having a large bulky suit of armor doesn't mean you're equal to a space Marine. You need to prove that a Starcraft Marines armor is equal to that of an Astartes.

CMC series Powered Combat Suits

C-14 "Impaler" Gauss Rifle

Hydralisk

Norade wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Your line of reasoning is flawed. It's not about how much energy there is in the shot, but how much energy is transferred to what area and in what manner. So a .50 cal Barret M82 fires shots with 20 KJ in them, I'll use that as an example. Which do you think do most damage; that .50 cal shot or a fluffy teddybear containing the same energy? Second question: which shot do you think does most damage to a human target; a .50 cal full metal jacket or a .50 cal hollow point? See where I'm going? Last question: what do you think does most damage; 500KJ spread over a 0,1mm radius area or 500KJ spread over 1cm radius area?
Next time you boil water, remember that it took over 33MJ/dl to get the water boiling.

Think of it from this perspective instead: what modern weapons are capable of damaging light vehicles. I'm not talking about Humvees (those things are actually pretty decently armoured), but at the same time I'm not talking civvy vehicles, either.

Now, a hand-held laser capable of sending a beam of only 1W (continuous fire) is capable of setting fire to living human skin. And incidentally seem to cost $300.

It depends on how exactly that fluffy teddy bear is storing the energy. For example that bear could be full of explosives, it could be super massive, or it could be fired at some crazy velocity (though in that case it burns up before reaching you). In any case your example is false as a lasgun is not a fluff teddy bear, and it is not a .50 cal bullet. It is a weapon that fires energy into you and will inflict far more damage than any non-explosive weapon we can equip a modern soldier with.

Inspite of all your false example you haven't actually mentioned that a lasgun is both highly penetrative, something neglected on the tabletop, and also causes you to explode when it hits you. This because a beam doesn't just drill a neat little hole as you might expect, instead the energy flash boils the liquid in your flesh causing you to explode violently as your flesh sublimates. That is also why laser weapons don't cauterize as most people expect that they would.

As for boiling water, that 33mJ/dl is spread over a long time, were it to be released instantly that water would explode very violently, if you don't beleve me be my guest in trying an experiment that would prove otherwise. But as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about I'm going to stop wasting time on you now.

You are missing my line of reasoning, and I can't quite tell if it's due to you not wanting to read it, or a failure on my side to communicate it. It doesn't matter too much, either. Although the statement regarding the water itches too much: you don't get exploding water if you energise a decilitre with 33MJ - you get boiling water (nearly). If you on the other hand energize a very small portion of it through the use of a high energy lasing beam with several millions of watts applied to a small area, a very small portion of the water will change temperature and most likely react explosively. The reason you boil water so slowly is that it is impractical to apply the energy spread equally to each particle. You heat a few particles more than the others and they will then transfer the energy over time. Boiling water is also a very wasteful process if you simply boil it on the stow, by the way, since a lot of the energy is absorbed by other medium than the water (and this, too, has relevance to how to consider a lasing weapon would work).

In the end, it's actually not something we need to discuss. It's all about what makes sense. I think they buffed a weapon in Modern Warfare by stating on the forums "we've made changes to this weapon, it should hit harder now" without giving numbers. A bit later it all came to surface all they ever did was change the weapon's sound effect, but people now used the weapon a lot more and they were generally more happy with it's performance.
It's what makes sense - and I think very few would agree a Gauss Rifle would be lower than S3.

Melissia wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:For reference, this is how I evaluate body armor, at least for humans:

6+ armor: Leather, light flak (think Catachan), various rudimentary/scavenged armors

Actually not even that much. Leather armor and other primitive armors are woefully unprotective.

In Dark Heresy, such "primitive" armors suffer rather heavily against any non-primitive weapons. 6+ is probably closer to modern military body armor at most. Actually it's probably better than modern military body armor, as I doubt our modern armor could stop a lasbolt.

Ork leather/scrap metal armor provides a 6+ save, as do Catachan flak-weave undershirts. Plate/chain mail combination armors granted 4+ saves in 3rd/4th edition.

and Sister Repentia have a 4+ Armour Save from thier bondage gear

anyway, I think Terran Marine should have a 3+ Sv as long as they remain with only WS2 and T3 so they can be torn up relativly efficiently by most anything in melee and if they only have BS3 they shouldn't kill too many things to make them seem too strong compared to thier in-game performance. I mean, at the very least there's a lot of mass in the way that you have to displace to get through, like, what does a Lasbolt do to a civilian car? anyone know? civilian cars are made of the "other metals" aren't they?

Mahtamori wrote:

Norade wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Your line of reasoning is flawed. It's not about how much energy there is in the shot, but how much energy is transferred to what area and in what manner. So a .50 cal Barret M82 fires shots with 20 KJ in them, I'll use that as an example. Which do you think do most damage; that .50 cal shot or a fluffy teddybear containing the same energy? Second question: which shot do you think does most damage to a human target; a .50 cal full metal jacket or a .50 cal hollow point? See where I'm going? Last question: what do you think does most damage; 500KJ spread over a 0,1mm radius area or 500KJ spread over 1cm radius area?
Next time you boil water, remember that it took over 33MJ/dl to get the water boiling.

Think of it from this perspective instead: what modern weapons are capable of damaging light vehicles. I'm not talking about Humvees (those things are actually pretty decently armoured), but at the same time I'm not talking civvy vehicles, either.

Now, a hand-held laser capable of sending a beam of only 1W (continuous fire) is capable of setting fire to living human skin. And incidentally seem to cost $300.

It depends on how exactly that fluffy teddy bear is storing the energy. For example that bear could be full of explosives, it could be super massive, or it could be fired at some crazy velocity (though in that case it burns up before reaching you). In any case your example is false as a lasgun is not a fluff teddy bear, and it is not a .50 cal bullet. It is a weapon that fires energy into you and will inflict far more damage than any non-explosive weapon we can equip a modern soldier with.

Inspite of all your false example you haven't actually mentioned that a lasgun is both highly penetrative, something neglected on the tabletop, and also causes you to explode when it hits you. This because a beam doesn't just drill a neat little hole as you might expect, instead the energy flash boils the liquid in your flesh causing you to explode violently as your flesh sublimates. That is also why laser weapons don't cauterize as most people expect that they would.

As for boiling water, that 33mJ/dl is spread over a long time, were it to be released instantly that water would explode very violently, if you don't beleve me be my guest in trying an experiment that would prove otherwise. But as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about I'm going to stop wasting time on you now.

You are missing my line of reasoning, and I can't quite tell if it's due to you not wanting to read it, or a failure on my side to communicate it. It doesn't matter too much, either. Although the statement regarding the water itches too much: you don't get exploding water if you energise a decilitre with 33MJ - you get boiling water (nearly). If you on the other hand energize a very small portion of it through the use of a high energy lasing beam with several millions of watts applied to a small area, a very small portion of the water will change temperature and most likely react explosively. The reason you boil water so slowly is that it is impractical to apply the energy spread equally to each particle. You heat a few particles more than the others and they will then transfer the energy over time. Boiling water is also a very wasteful process if you simply boil it on the stow, by the way, since a lot of the energy is absorbed by other medium than the water (and this, too, has relevance to how to consider a lasing weapon would work).

In the end, it's actually not something we need to discuss. It's all about what makes sense. I think they buffed a weapon in Modern Warfare by stating on the forums "we've made changes to this weapon, it should hit harder now" without giving numbers. A bit later it all came to surface all they ever did was change the weapon's sound effect, but people now used the weapon a lot more and they were generally more happy with it's performance.
It's what makes sense - and I think very few would agree a Gauss Rifle would be lower than S3.

Of course if you could evenly dump 33mJ of energy into the right amount of water you'd just get it boiling, but that is impossible so I went with the obvious answer that dumping that much energy in would cause a violent reaction. As for the rest, you're saying that I should care about making some random people on the internet happy by allowing them to, falsely, think that a Gauss gun is stronger than S2. I call BS on that.

Lotet wrote:I think Terran Marine should have a 3+ Sv as long as they remain with only WS2 and T3 so they can be torn up relativly efficiently by most anything in melee and if they only have BS3 they shouldn't kill too many things to make them seem too strong compared to thier in-game performance. I mean, at the very least there's a lot of mass in the way that you have to displace to get through, like, what does a Lasbolt do to a civilian car? anyone know? civilian cars are made of the "other metals" aren't they?

Care to do the work required to show that Terran Marine armor should be 3+ besides simply repeating some tired line about how larger armor = better save. This is plainly untrue, 50 lb. of mail armor is not equal to he same weight in armor made of modern materials and that gap in technology is a lot less than the gap between Terran armed forces and Astartes.

Norade wrote:

Lotet wrote:I think Terran Marine should have a 3+ Sv as long as they remain with only WS2 and T3 so they can be torn up relativly efficiently by most anything in melee and if they only have BS3 they shouldn't kill too many things to make them seem too strong compared to thier in-game performance. I mean, at the very least there's a lot of mass in the way that you have to displace to get through, like, what does a Lasbolt do to a civilian car? anyone know? civilian cars are made of the "other metals" aren't they?

Care to do the work required to show that Terran Marine armor should be 3+ besides simply repeating some tired line about how larger armor = better save. This is plainly untrue, 50 lb. of mail armor is not equal to he same weight in armor made of modern materials and that gap in technology is a lot less than the gap between Terran armed forces and Astartes.

sure thing mate. Lexicanum says the Lasgun vaporizes the immediate surface area of the target hit. against a solid like metal it won't punch through a block of lead but it will leave a crater as it loses it's energy too quickly once it impacts. it's an energy weapon but it doesn't use a sustained beam so the shot will stop (or weaken) when it hits something hard. against soft flesh though, it cuts right through.

a Bolter shell is delayed to get through the flesh, it would likely get lodged in the armour when it detonates. though many pictures give varrying views on how powerful these shots are. sometimes they make a guy explode, sometimes the Chaos Marine just keeps marching.

just having the mass there really makes a difference, at the very least it can alter the course of most weaponry and will easily protect you from shrapnel. it works for Orks, I mean really, how much do you think goes into a Meganob? those suits can protect them from a Battle cannon

besides, even with a 3+ save they'll still get taken down by 3 Heavy Bolter rounds or 5 normal bolter shots. I don't think they're tough but they take more slashes from a Zergling (hormagaunt) than a Guardman can.

oh yeah, almost forgot. I'm in no way a fan of StarCraft

Norade wrote:As for the rest, you're saying that I should care about making some random people on the internet happy by allowing them to, falsely, think that a Gauss gun is stronger than S2. I call BS on that.

I think the problem is that 40k armour works because the writers says it does. I'd imagine that a Space Marine would at least be thrown off his feet if he got hit by a Gauss gun, as they fire their projectiles at hypersonic speeds. That much energy in such a small area would do a lot of damage. S3 shouldn't be impossible, especially considering that railguns are S10 and use the same principles as coilguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss_gun).

Norade wrote:Of course if you could evenly dump 33mJ of energy into the right amount of water you'd just get it boiling, but that is impossible so I went with the obvious answer that dumping that much energy in would cause a violent reaction. As for the rest, you're saying that I should care about making some random people on the internet happy by allowing them to, falsely, think that a Gauss gun is stronger than S2. I call BS on that.

Of course you are! Welcome to gaming industry standards dating back since before AD. Think about it the next time you play the most successful strategy game in the world (chess), does a knight really move like that?

Only thing you've got extremely wrong, still, is the range of physics the numbers in Warhammer describe; S3 covers a very large amount of different sorts of violence. Remember that S3 is sufficient to incapacitate (not necessarily kill) a healthy 20-year half of the time it's applied to him.

Lotet wrote:I think Terran Marine should have a 3+ Sv as long as they remain with only WS2 and T3 so they can be torn up relativly efficiently by most anything in melee and if they only have BS3 they shouldn't kill too many things to make them seem too strong compared to thier in-game performance. I mean, at the very least there's a lot of mass in the way that you have to displace to get through, like, what does a Lasbolt do to a civilian car? anyone know? civilian cars are made of the "other metals" aren't they?

Care to do the work required to show that Terran Marine armor should be 3+ besides simply repeating some tired line about how larger armor = better save. This is plainly untrue, 50 lb. of mail armor is not equal to he same weight in armor made of modern materials and that gap in technology is a lot less than the gap between Terran armed forces and Astartes.

I always liked the idea of a Terran Marine being like how the RT Marines were statted:

WS:4
BS:4
S:4
T:3
W:1
I:4
A:1
LD:8
SV:4+

Granted you could probably choose to give them less initiative or what have you but these guys are all pretty hard-core psychos. They're still T3 and have a 4+ save, so they die fairly easy. I'd give them a point cost of 10 or 11.

Their Gauss Weapon could probably be R:24 Str3 Ap6 Rapid Fire

:edit:

In that vein, the Marauder could be:

WS:3
BS:4
S:4
T:4
W:1
I:2
A:1
LD:8
SV:4+

Or you could instead keep him at T3 and give it a 3+ save, or make him T3(4) with a 4+ save.

Reapers would have a 5+ armor save and of course Jump-Packs and a pair of Gauss Pistols or you could have them with one Gauss Pistol and just make it twin-linked.

Firebats are just Marauders with Flamethrowers (at least in SCII.)

So give the Firebat a Flamer, and have the Marauder be like a krak-grenade launcher. Maybe make it R24" Str5 Ap4 Assault 1.

I figure a Marine statline could look something like this (with reasons):

12 pts/model

WS 3: Not trained extensively in it, but the bayonet attachment means they are at least prepared for it
BS 4: Insane amount of assistance in those suits, especially those visors, just crazy
S 4: Able to one-punch a Hydralisk dead, among other things
T 4: The crazy amount of medical systems and such in the CMC-300 could mean high 3 or low 4, I'd personally go for low 4
W 1: They still die
I 3: I don't see them as very fast in terms of reacting in those suits, even with the advanced servo systems and such in place
A 1: Again, close combat isn't their primary concern
LD 8: A little more determined than Guardsmen, probably because of the insane whack-jobs and resoc
Sv 4+: Just to be fair and tie in the game, they start with armor 0, unlike the heavier Marauders and Firebats, but I see the arguments for 3+

Also able to put in the normal upgrades, but taken across all games. (U-238, Shields, Stims for, of course, extra points)

I figure the normal Gauss rifle would be S 4 AP 5, with the usual 24" Rapid Fire. Why? A Heavy Stubber (or 40K's take on a standard .50 cal) is S4, but the Gauss-related properties of the rifle would make them AP5, not 6.

Thoughts?

Shellshock41 wrote:I figure a Marine statline could look something like this (with reasons):

12 pts/model

WS 3: Not trained extensively in it, but the bayonet attachment means they are at least prepared for it
BS 4: Insane amount of assistance in those suits, especially those visors, just crazy
S 4: Able to one-punch a Hydralisk dead, among other things
T 4: The crazy amount of medical systems and such in the CMC-300 could mean high 3 or low 4, I'd personally go for low 4
W 1: They still die
I 3: I don't see them as very fast in terms of reacting in those suits, even with the advanced servo systems and such in place
A 1: Again, close combat isn't their primary concern
LD 8: A little more determined than Guardsmen, probably because of the insane whack-jobs and resoc
Sv 4+: Just to be fair and tie in the game, they start with armor 0, unlike the heavier Marauders and Firebats, but I see the arguments for 3+

Also able to put in the normal upgrades, but taken across all games. (U-238, Shields, Stims for, of course, extra points)

I figure the normal Gauss rifle would be S 4 AP 5, with the usual 24" Rapid Fire. Why? A Heavy Stubber (or 40K's take on a standard .50 cal) is S4, but the Gauss-related properties of the rifle would make them AP5, not 6.

Thoughts?

Not so big of a fan of the T4 but everything else looks tip-top. Nice work.
Looks like we have a lot of the same ideas.

Norade wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:That's not Marines being bad, that's Hydralisks being good. Hydralisk spines can penetrate through multiple centimeters of "neosteel" armor-- 2 centimeters or more, even at maximum range.

Except that as I said that spine was moving at a very sub sonic speed thus proving the armor sucks.

ph34r wrote:

Norade wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:That's not Marines being bad, that's Hydralisks being good. Hydralisk spines can penetrate through multiple centimeters of "neosteel" armor-- 2 centimeters or more, even at maximum range.

Except that as I said that spine was moving at a very sub sonic speed thus proving the armor sucks.

That is terrible logic. You basically assume that the armor is bad, the spines are bad, and the marine's weapon is bad, thereby proving without a doubt how they all suck together. Do you want me to explain to you how stupid that is?

Norade wrote:<stuff>

1. You don't seriously think a picture will prove anything? Compare that (Kasrkin?) to a Terran Marine and see who looks more protected. Yes. It's all about looks. How else do you think a damned Wraithguard is only 3+? It's made from near-solid Wraithbone, which incidentally is stronger than anything the Empire can make.
2. No, Terran armour doesn't need to be made to withstand something so primitive as lasing beams. Need I remind you that Protoss is any human armies in WH40K? Granted that the void blades sort of rip a marine in one hit, but a marine can take more than one hit from a plasma blade.
3. It's called suspense of disbelief. If something looks huge and awesome, like a Terran Marine, it should be huge and awesome. Otherwise you're killing the game. The chess comment is irrelevant to the discussion of stats, but highly relevant to my comment regarding good game design - it doesn't have to be (in some cases, shouldn't be) realistic, only believable and playable. There's a reason why so many are playing Warhammer and similar games and not the realistic games in general.
4. No, I don't need to prove that a Gauss weapon kill or incapacitates people roughly 50% of the time, when modern hand guns have a higher incapacitation rate than 50% (if you hit) and it's not per bullet, either (how else do you think a Shuriken Catapult would be only 2 shots per shooting phase?). Use your imagination, not wikipedia or Guns and Bullets mag.
5. Oh no. Don't try with me. The physical specifications for water is 4.1855 kJ/(kg·K) (15 °C, 101.325 kPa), also mega Joule is written as MJ. mJ is milli Joule, one thousand part of a Joule.
6. Precisely. Generation ships aren't worth it. In the Starcraft world they were. And they also had significantly higher degree of bio-mechanical implant technology, which happened to be the part of the population they sent off to purify Earth.

Terran Gauss-gun: there's nothing saying it isn't a coilgun, strictly theoretically. A chemical discharge to get the bullet going, with a coilgun to accelerate it further, is a bloody smart way of creating a hybrid gun that reduces the energy requirements down while also reducing the requirements on the shells. Pick the best balance between two worlds.

P.S. Super-sonic bullets don't mean stronger bullets, it might even mean the bullet is less effective at transferring it's energy in a way that will do damage properly.

I have a reference on the hypersonic speed that the gauss rifle fires it's projectiles at.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/C-14_rifle

It also says that it can penetrate two inches of steel plating, which equates to 50 millimeters of penetration of Rolled homogenous steel armor at a perpendicular angle. Not bad for a standard infantry rifle. Especially since it has a rate of fire in full automatic of 30 rounds per second, which equates to 1800 rounds per minute, as fast as some versions of the MG-42. I'll admit that it probably doesn't have the same strength as a bolter, but it should probably be assault 2 and AP 5.

As far as armor goes, I'm really not sure whether it should be a 3+ or a 4+. As it is, the Starcraft wiki mentions that the suit is impervious to most small arms fire, with the exception of a weapon called a needle gun that from the sounds of it some type of weapon optimized for armor penetration. It doesn't sound like it's to bad, but it does mention that the suit is prone to immobilization from things like a hydralisk shoving a claw into the it's chest, and since wounds are rendered by making a model combat ineffective, this may make it qualify as a 4+ moreso than a 3+. Though small arms in Starcraft are probably less powerful than ones in 40k, it's still not bad for a suit of powered armor.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/CMC_armor

EDIT: Also, the ballistic shields that they use seem to be okay. They're supposed to increase their survival rate by 25%, but that's against weapons in their universe. I'd say make them 5 points and make it available only if they get the 4+ armor saves, and allow these to allow for rerolls. It makes them more resilient against regular weapons, but stuff like kraken bolts and assault cannons will still ignore it and not make it overpowered. Just an idea.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/M98_ballistic_alloy_combat_shield

EDIT: To answer questions about how the hydralisk can hurt the Marines in CMC armor, the wiki says that their spines can penetrate two centimeters of neosteel. Can't really convert that into RHA since the wiki doesn't give a definitive strength or toughness in numbers to neosteel, but judging by its name the RHA penetration should probably be better than 20 millimeters at a perpendicular angle. It also says that they have "resistant" carapaces, but gives no examples as to how strong it is. It does, however, say that current Terran tactics stress the use of siege tanks when fighting them, so that might indicate that their rifles ineffective against them, which would make their armor tougher than 50 millimeters of RHA. Just specualtion on that part, though.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Hydralisk

The part of the Hydralisk that makes it so powerful is that it has 4,000 muscles in it's body. With the way the Zerg do things, they are all probably pretty powerful as well, making those spines incredibly deadly as well as their hits in melee.

@MarkingLight: Good job on that post, I've wanted to do that the whole time, but erased it because I really don't think the guy responding so negatively would actually take it into account much.

@Mahtamori: I've been thinking the Gauss Rifle fires in two stages as well, kind of like the Bolter firing with a charge first, then the rocket kicking in once it clears the barrel (in that they are both multi-stage).

Also, general-use information, the Terrans have weaponized Plasma, Firebats use it in Perdition Flamethrowers.

Mahtamori wrote:

Norade wrote:<stuff>

1. You don't seriously think a picture will prove anything? Compare that (Kasrkin?) to a Terran Marine and see who looks more protected. Yes. It's all about looks. How else do you think a damned Wraithguard is only 3+? It's made from near-solid Wraithbone, which incidentally is stronger than anything the Empire can make.
2. No, Terran armour doesn't need to be made to withstand something so primitive as lasing beams. Need I remind you that Protoss is any human armies in WH40K? Granted that the void blades sort of rip a marine in one hit, but a marine can take more than one hit from a plasma blade.
3. It's called suspense of disbelief. If something looks huge and awesome, like a Terran Marine, it should be huge and awesome. Otherwise you're killing the game. The chess comment is irrelevant to the discussion of stats, but highly relevant to my comment regarding good game design - it doesn't have to be (in some cases, shouldn't be) realistic, only believable and playable. There's a reason why so many are playing Warhammer and similar games and not the realistic games in general.
4. No, I don't need to prove that a Gauss weapon kill or incapacitates people roughly 50% of the time, when modern hand guns have a higher incapacitation rate than 50% (if you hit) and it's not per bullet, either (how else do you think a Shuriken Catapult would be only 2 shots per shooting phase?). Use your imagination, not wikipedia or Guns and Bullets mag.
5. Oh no. Don't try with me. The physical specifications for water is 4.1855 kJ/(kg·K) (15 °C, 101.325 kPa), also mega Joule is written as MJ. mJ is milli Joule, one thousand part of a Joule.
6. Precisely. Generation ships aren't worth it. In the Starcraft world they were. And they also had significantly higher degree of bio-mechanical implant technology, which happened to be the part of the population they sent off to purify Earth.

Terran Gauss-gun: there's nothing saying it isn't a coilgun, strictly theoretically. A chemical discharge to get the bullet going, with a coilgun to accelerate it further, is a bloody smart way of creating a hybrid gun that reduces the energy requirements down while also reducing the requirements on the shells. Pick the best balance between two worlds.

P.S. Super-sonic bullets don't mean stronger bullets, it might even mean the bullet is less effective at transferring it's energy in a way that will do damage properly.

1. Who cares how protected they look, honestly that doesn't change anything. They can look like a tank, and talk like a tank, but unless they can shoot and take shots like a tank they aren't a tank.
2. Protoss is any human army in 40k? That doesn't even makes sense. Also plasma blades aren't that impressive, plasma is basically steam. Would you be afraid if I had a plastic tube with a bunch of steam in it and when I hit you with it a bit of steam touched you? I thought not.
3. Ignoring the fact that a Terran having a 3+ armor save isn't believable once you look at the evidence.
4. Except that modern weapons don't have that. 5.56mm rounds have gakky stopping power that's why you need to double tap or even two to the chest one to the head. Even 7.62mm have issues and with better medical tech and better pain resistance training against relatively low velocity .50 cal rounds you might not get 50% in actual combat.
5. Why not do the math then, prove it takes 33MJ of energy to boil 100mL of water.
6. Generation ships aren't worth it because we haven't hit critical population yet, not because the tech isn't there. Generation ship =/= high tech, that just makes it easier.

On the chemically assisted coilgun, that idea is honestly terrible. You gain nothing and end up fouling your coils and weakening you magnetic field with each shot. You also need to carry a clip and a high powered energy source in your weapon adding two points of failure to your design. You gain nothing for the extra work required.

You need speed, explosives, or corrosives to beat armor and Terran 'Gauss' weapons are lacking in the last two so they must use speed. After you have enough speed to beat the armor you simply design a round that mushrooms perfectly as it moves through armor so it punches through and leaves a large hole in the person or you fire alternating AP hollow point in a two round cycle so one round makes a hole and they other passes through it using a recoil cycle so fast that the barrel doesn't jump between the two rounds firing.

I'll get to the other posts later when it isn't 4:30am.

Jesus...
@ Norade
1. This is science fiction and a game. Get over it. If it looks awesome it is awesome. Unless something more awesome is bashing it's head in.
2. Who said anything about Protoss in a human army?
Plasma is basically gas in the same way fire is basically rust (both are oxidations).
3. That's not a fact or you wouldn't see more than one person disagree with you regarding your stat estimates. We can discuss where the exact numbers would land in several different ways, but going at it scientifically like you're attempting is just silly (see number 1) - and that's not taking into account that Terran technology is based off of what humans'll have in 200 years and that Astarte technology is based off of what humans will have after it's gained and lost that technology several times over the course of 38,000 years.
4. A double-tap isn't two shots on a weapons profile. A double-tap is potentially just part of a long series of shots which eventually amounts to the humble profile "Assault 1". You're taking the GW numbers entirely too literally.
Also, medical tech doesn't factor in to it, that's what Astarte use apothecaries for and Terrans use medics.
5. Aha! I got an american and european notifications (it was a decimal separator and not a thousands separator) mixed up when I didn't bother doing the math myself, which is why I missed by exactly 1000 units. It takes 33.6kJ to get water to boiling temperature. Thanks for not helping.
6. The Terrans didn't send generation ships. Read http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_storyline
In order to save space: generation ships aren't remotely available technology at present. As to why, that's NOT what this thread is about.

As far as chemically assisted coilguns are concerned, I can't really believe you're applying modern manufacture technology to science fiction weapons.
Your list of ways to beat armour is a bit short, considering this is science fiction. All I can say is Distort Gun.

If you're going to pull "do the math" replies in the future, care to show your own equations and reasoning in full as well?

Also, the Protoss don't use plasma blades. They either use Psionic blades or Warp Blades, depending on whether it's regular Protoss or dark Protoss that we are talking about.

Also, plasma can be used for cutting applications. The problem is that it usually disperses too quickly to be effectively beyond a range that you might as well be using a melee weapon. And once it starts to disperse, it'll be much hotter than steam meaning that any plasma weapon IRL would have the functionality of both a melta and flamethrower. Of course, the power requirements are tremendous, so you won't be seeing that anytime soon.

About the ammunition, if you look at the link I gave for the C-14 rifle, it says that they have a variety of ammunition for their gauss rifles to use, including hollow points, depleted uranium, incendiary, armor piercing, and a few others. It only gives one statistic for armor penetration for all rounds, but that stat is probably for the depleted uranium round that is optimized for range instead of armor penetration. They might be able to penetrate even more armor than that statistic suggests with their actual armor piercing ammunition, although that is speculation. Still, it does mean they aren't sacrificing stopping power since they are able to use hollow point rounds and this also implies that they have better armor penetrating material than depleted uranium, which is used in alot of modern day weapons like the GAU-8 and the 120mm on the Abrams.

The coilgun idea isn't a bad one. Making a gas operated mechanism for the cycling decreases the power requirements of the weapon, and the starter charge further decreases the energy requirements. It seems like they can't just generate power out of nothing, so they need to make sure that they can limit the power requirements of the weapons they have. A pure gauss weapon would be nicer still, but it wouldn't help if the weapon was then too expensive or logistically unsound to be usuable.

Another way to look at a way to compare is to look at necromunda guns. They have stub guns which are "it is
recognisable as a revolver or small automatic of the
kind used since the Twentieth century." They are s3. So the same strength as lasguns and autoguns.
Yeah 40k doesnt make sense, normal bullets do as well as super advanced lasguns!

So Marines can probably be s3 or s4 and both are moderately defensible.