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Thing is, a big block of 30 boyz will eat almost everything in assault, whether you've got 2 or 3 attacks per model. For the odd thing that shrugs off that quantity of basic attacks, then you're relying on your nob with a PK anyway, so the extra attacks from the sluggas just don't matter. But having 60 shots reaching out 18" is invaluable, especially when you want to plonk your boyz down on an objective.

The extra attacks from the sluggas are much more useful when you've only got a small number of boyz... say twelve boyz piling out of a truck. In those cases the difference, when charging, between 36 and 48 attacks (or what's left after the other guy goes first) can be decisive.


So, umm, yeah, I agree with everyone that's said shootas for big footslogging mobs, sluggas for trukkboyz mobs.

but out of 60 shots you'll be super lucky if 10 or 12 hit because of orks lousy bs. they aren't a shooty army they are all about the charge into close quarters where they excell. in said close combat your gonna get a buttload of attacks with either setup. so if you are running cross the field to engage the enemy (which is what every ork player needs to do) you wont be shooting. but send some trucks loaded with shootas ahead to soak up shots and maybe get off some menacing volleys.

Badandy wrote:but out of 60 shots you'll be super lucky if 10 or 12 hit because of orks lousy bs. they aren't a shooty army they are all about the charge into close quarters where they excell. in said close combat your gonna get a buttload of attacks with either setup. so if you are running cross the field to engage the enemy (which is what every ork player needs to do) you wont be shooting. but send some trucks loaded with shootas ahead to soak up shots and maybe get off some menacing volleys.

Actually, over time if you spend more time on foot, you'll realize that sometimes you need to shoot, and maybe you don't want to go to far ahead. Yeah run, run again, but you don't ALWAYS run, in objective battles, you'll learn sometimes you need to shoot down some guys.

I know that in objective games you need to shoot. not a newbie. I'm just trying to say that in my experience with orks, which is plentiful everytime the orks relies on shooting he loses. anyone who plays against orks is setting their army up for maximum number of shots and templates. and other armies especially space marines will rape the orks in a firefight. next thing you know the orks are running away.

Shootaz are more useful.

Sure, BS2 is low, but consider that with two shots, you'll hit with one of them 55% of the time. And you can choose to assault after if you're in range, and if you're not, you can open fire again next turn.

Where as if you go against your average WS4 enemy with sluggas, you'll only get one extra attack hitting 50% of the time. Not to mention that it's only S4 on the charge.

Additionally, the extra range is a huge bonus that makes you a lot more versatile for offensive and defensive play.

Sluggaz are only better if you plan on having your orkz fight a lot of prolonged combats that last long enough for the impact of the charge to be inneffective.

how do you figure that a bs of 2 will allow you to hit 55% of the time??? 4 out of 6 sides of the dice are against you.
wouldn't that be 33% at best for each shot fired to hit, and then you still have to roll to wound probably turning 50% of those hits into misses. a smart ork player comes down your throat. even in an objective game field nothing but an hq or 2 and as many mobs of boyz as possible. lots to die but lots will live to get in for cc. and by fielding only troop units you should have more than enough to hold points and kill enemies..just my own observation.

Badandy wrote: a smart ork player comes down your throat.

Yes. Haha

dirty mind you got there. lol

Badandy wrote:but out of 60 shots you'll be super lucky if 10 or 12 hit because of orks lousy bs.

20 will hit on average. I mean, it's really simple math, it's just 60 divided by 3. Against MEQs half of them will wound and of those 10 a third will get past the armor. So, they'll kill 3.33 MEQs on average.
For comparison, let's look at 60 shots from guardsmen carrying lasguns (they're a cheap, shooty unit). With a BS 3, 30 will hit. Against MEQs, a third will wound, so we're at 10 wounds, and a third of those will be unsaved, which leads to 3.33 dead MEQs. Um, yeah, that's the exact same as the shoota boyz. Guardsmen are supposed to shoot, but when shoota boyz can do it as well as them, I'm not going to ignore their firepower, that extra bit of strength means a lot.

Badandy wrote:how do you figure that a bs of 2 will allow you to hit 55% of the time???

Fafnir didn't say that, he (she?) said out of their two shots that you're going to get a hit 55% of the time. So, let's do this math. A single one of their shots will hit 1/3 of the time, but we're firing two shots, which means we double the number, which means that the chances of a shoota boy getting a single hit from his shoota is actually 2/3. He's still wrong, but Fafnir's number is closer than what your number is.

Badandy wrote:how do you figure that a bs of 2 will allow you to hit 55% of the time??? 4 out of 6 sides of the dice are against you.
wouldn't that be 33% at best for each shot fired to hit, and then you still have to roll to wound probably turning 50% of those hits into misses. a smart ork player comes down your throat. even in an objective game field nothing but an hq or 2 and as many mobs of boyz as possible. lots to die but lots will live to get in for cc. and by fielding only troop units you should have more than enough to hold points and kill enemies..just my own observation.

Reread my post. With 2 shots you have 33% chance to hit with each shot. Which basically means you have a 55% chance to hit with one.

Boyz may live for CC, but an extra round of shooting, plus the extra shot before going into assault, helps plenty.

Shoota boyz are fething awesome. Many people fail to realize that Orkz have some great shooting, despite their poor BS. Sure, they may not be able to aim to save their lives, but when you can supply a volume of firepower capable of blotting out the sun, you don't have to. And when you consider how good ork guns really are, it just gets better.

no you have two 33% chances. you cant add that up and say 55%. thats just mathematically incorrect. you roll 2 dice for the 2 shots fine it's still 8 sides of the 2 dice against you vs 4 that are hits. thats still 33% no matter how you slice it. a shooting boy is usually a dead one!! and like i said say you wound on a 4+. that means only 50% of your 33% will wound on average meaning your over all chance to wound is 16% roughly. thats the math

Badandy wrote:no you have two 33% chances. you cant add that up and say 55%. thats just mathematically incorrect.

If you stopped here, you would be right, because it would be a 66% chance of getting a hit. And, really, look at the math I provided above, shoota boyz do as well as the IG for taking out MEQs in a firefight. Better, actually, because they can get their two shots in, then charge to get 3 attacks each. They get even more dangerous when you add in big shootas.

Okay, let's do some math.

33% chance of hitting means a 66% chance of missing.

If you fire two shots, that means you have two instances where you have a 67% chance of missing.

Multiply those odds, and that means you have a 45% chance of missing both shots, which means a 55% chance of hitting at least once.

Additionally, you have an 11% chance of hitting twice with a shoota boy. It the exact same math for twin-linked weaponry, except you must take into account the additional chance that both shots will hit.

Probability. Learn it. You should know your grade 11 math by now.

Fafnir wrote:Okay, let's do some math.

33% chance of hitting means a 66% chance of missing.

If you fire two shots, that means you have two instances where you have a 67% chance of missing.

Multiply those odds, and that means you have a 45% chance of missing both shots, which means a 55% chance of hitting at least once.

Additionally, you have an 11% chance of hitting twice with a shoota boy. It the exact same math for twin-linked weaponry, except you must take into account the additional chance that both shots will hit.

Probability. Learn it. You should know your grade 11 math by now.

That's actually the chance of hitting only once, you're leaving out the probability for hitting twice, which is 1/3 times 1/3 which is 11%.

i was an honor math student way back in the day my math is solid. 33% on each shot. which is not 66% stop sleeping in math class bud. 2 dice 12 sides. only 5 and 6 are hits. Thats 2 sides of each dice so 4 sides hit. 4 out of 12 hit so follow closely now. out of 12 sides total 4 are hits Thats 33%. It doesnt matter that you roll 2 dice instead of one or one twice it's still 33% Now 4+ wounds so 50% of the dice sides are against you. follow. so an average of 50% of hits will wound correct. so you are left with the grande total of roughly 16.5% chance to wound. Unless someone can show me some solid math that proves otherwise than you just have to accept it. can't argue the math. and i'm only talkin bout shooting not charging. ipso facto ork shooting sucks.

Vene wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Okay, let's do some math.

33% chance of hitting means a 66% chance of missing.

If you fire two shots, that means you have two instances where you have a 67% chance of missing.

Multiply those odds, and that means you have a 45% chance of missing both shots, which means a 55% chance of hitting at least once.

Additionally, you have an 11% chance of hitting twice with a shoota boy. It the exact same math for twin-linked weaponry, except you must take into account the additional chance that both shots will hit.

Probability. Learn it. You should know your grade 11 math by now.

That's actually the chance of hitting only once, you're leaving out the probability for hitting twice, which is 1/3 times 1/3 which is 11%.

Did you read the 5th to last sentance? I covered that specifically. The 11% converges with your 55% chance of hitting once.


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Badandy wrote:i was an honor math student way back in the day my math is solid. 33% on each shot. which is not 66% stop sleeping in math class bud. 2 dice 12 sides. only 5 and 6 are hits. Thats 2 sides of each dice so 4 sides hit. 4 out of 12 hit so follow closely now. out of 12 sides total 4 are hits Thats 33%. It doesnt matter that you roll 2 dice instead of one or one twice it's still 33% Now 4+ wounds so 50% of the dice sides are against you. follow. so an average of 50% of hits will wound correct. so you are left with the grande total of roughly 16.5% chance to wound.

For being an honour student, you sure do suck at probability. I'll give you a hint, otherwise you might risk an aneurysm:

Stop accounting for one big event, and start accounting for two seperate, small events that coincide but do not affect each other. You're not rolling 2D6, but a single D6 two times.

Don't worry, I don't do too well with trigonometry. I do well in Calculus though. At least that's what all my friends in engineering and accounting say when I help them with their homework.

dude you have a 67% chance of missing each shot not 45%. 33% hit leaves 67% to miss.your math is flawed. just think about it and you'll see. I can't make it any clearer then I did in my last post. just because you get 2 shots each with 33% chance to hit. you cannot just add the two percentages together and say 66% overall. thats mathematically incorrect. I work as a supervisor in the oilpatch and do math all freakin day. mistakes can cost huge money so get off your high horse and show me your math because what i see is incorrect.

Yes, a 67% chance of missing each shot, that's right.

However, I'm not talking about your chance of missing each shot, I'm talking about your chance of missing both shots. It's right there in the percentages I listed above.

your chance to miss is still 67% doesnt matter that you get 2 shots or 100. you still roll that dice to decide your shots. yes more shots will mean more hits usually cause you get more rolls. But the % never changes every shot from an ork boy with a shoota has 16.5% chance to wound. and we haven't even gone into saves where your chance to wound can get dwindled again. My bro plays orks. ask him what he thinks of ork shooting prowess and he'll laugh his ass off.

See, you're still calculating for a single shot, and ignoring everything that I put in front of you. I think you've come to realize that I'm right, and now you're just trying to convolute your broken argument further and further in hopes of covering up the fact that you're wrong.

And as for Ork shooting... well, there's a reason why Lootaz are one of the most feared ork units in the game, and it's not their close combat potential...

Lootaz are a very special case. Want to try comparing other shooty units... maybe... I don't know... flash gitz?

Fafnir wrote:

Vene wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Okay, let's do some math.

33% chance of hitting means a 66% chance of missing.

If you fire two shots, that means you have two instances where you have a 67% chance of missing.

Multiply those odds, and that means you have a 45% chance of missing both shots, which means a 55% chance of hitting at least once.

Additionally, you have an 11% chance of hitting twice with a shoota boy. It the exact same math for twin-linked weaponry, except you must take into account the additional chance that both shots will hit.

Probability. Learn it. You should know your grade 11 math by now.

That's actually the chance of hitting only once, you're leaving out the probability for hitting twice, which is 1/3 times 1/3 which is 11%.

Did you read the 5th to last sentance? I covered that specifically. The 11% converges with your 55% chance of hitting once.

Oh, oops, that was bad. I also realize what I was doing to get the 67%, I was looking at the average number of hits, which would be .67 hits from the single shooting model. Yeah, you've got your math entirely correct.

Also, Badandy, honors math means what exactly? Have you had an actual statistics course? You need to use these rules. I also have to say, I'm not exactly impressed by you saying that if Orks are lucky to get 10 hits from 60 shots, which is actually half of their average. The last time I checked, lucky means you do better than average, not worse.

Flash gitz are horrible for more than just their shooting prowess.

Shootaz are great, mobile, mid-range shooting weapons, SAG Mekz can be devestating, and Killkannons can do some hefty damage.

Remember, man per man, ork shooting is horrid, but when you put it all on the table at once, it's devestating. Very few armies can supply a similar level of firepower.

listen man it doesn't matter if you roll each shot seperate or not I already pointed out rolling both at once up in a previous post. each shot is determined by a six sided die so your % Is NEVER going to change its the same for each shot and overall its simple. better go to bed before your mom catches you up still......hahahaha kids god I hate em

Okay, let me break this down very, very, very simply. Consider this a review in basic probability.

If we were comparing completely isolated events, you would be correct. Each individual shot has a 16.5% chance of wounding.

But we're not. We're comparing two events that, although seperate, are compared together.

So, we have one poor, lonely ork firing his shoota. That's two shots.

So, if I have 2 shots, with each shot hitting at 33% of the time, that means each shot misses 66% of the time. Still with me?

Now, we want to know the chance of each shot missing, because it's easier to calculate the odds of hitting a single time with multiple events when we compare it to the odds of missing. If we wanted to figure out the odds of hitting with both shots, we would compare the actual odds of hitting, and we could skip this step. So, we compare the possible outcome of shot 1 missing and the possible outcome of shot 2 missing by multiplying them together. If we had three shots, we would multiply the odds of all 3 shots missing.

So, this is the operation:

(chance of shot 1 missing)*(chance of shot 2 missing)=(chance of both shots missing)

(.67)*(.67)=(.45)

We then subtract that from 100% to find our chance of hitting once.

(1.00)-(.45)=(.55)

So, to summarize, here's what we have

(chance of hitting with at least a single shot)=(1.00)-((chance of missing shot 1)*(chance of missing shot 2))


If we want to find the chance of both shots hitting, we can skip the intermediate step, since we're just looking for one outcome.

So we multiply:

(chance of shot 1 hitting)*(chance of shot 2 hitting)=(chance of both shots hitting)

(.33)*(.33)=(.11)

Therefore, there is an 11% chance that both shots will hit. However, this 11% chance that both shots will hit is part of the 55% chance that at least one shot will hit.


If you can't comprehend this, I'm sorry, but I can't help you. It's pathetically basic math.

we are talking 2 different things your talkin overall and i'm not thats the miscommunication. your math which you showed is 100% correct. But I really can't see and never have experienced ork boys with shootas hitting 55% of the time. To look at it that way makes them seem better than they actually are.

Badandy wrote:but out of 60 shots you'll be super lucky if 10 or 12 hit because of orks lousy bs.

Who taught you maths? 1/3 chance of hitting, 60 shots... 20 hits on average.

Even if you don't know the maths how many games have you played against orks? Experience would have quickly shown you you'll see 20 or thereabouts most of the time, and very rarely as low as 10 or 12.

they aren't a shooty army they are all about the charge into close quarters where they excell. in said close combat your gonna get a buttload of attacks with either setup. so if you are running cross the field to engage the enemy (which is what every ork player needs to do) you wont be shooting. but send some trucks loaded with shootas ahead to soak up shots and maybe get off some menacing volleys.

This is just not true. Orks are very strong in close combat but a unit able to put out 20 St 4 hits per turn while moving is also excellent. To say nothing of big blocks of lootas. You can stare at the BS2 all day but you need to factor in the sheer number of shots orks can put down field... the only thing they lack at range is heavy AT.

You're also wrong in assuming ork boyz will be running each turn and therefore unable to make much use of their shootas. You run every turn with sluggas, with shootas you run on the first turn, and after that you advance to an objective, putting out 60 shots as you go, once you're on the objective you sit there daring someone to try and clear out 30 orks. It's a basic, common use of a core ork unit, and I cannot believe you're unfamiliar with it.

sebster wrote:

Badandy wrote:but out of 60 shots you'll be super lucky if 10 or 12 hit because of orks lousy bs.

Who taught you maths? 1/3 chance of hitting, 60 shots... 20 hits on average.

Even if you don't know the maths how many games have you played against orks? Experience would have quickly shown you you'll see 20 or thereabouts most of the time, and very rarely as low as 10 or 12.

they aren't a shooty army they are all about the charge into close quarters where they excell. in said close combat your gonna get a buttload of attacks with either setup. so if you are running cross the field to engage the enemy (which is what every ork player needs to do) you wont be shooting. but send some trucks loaded with shootas ahead to soak up shots and maybe get off some menacing volleys.

This is just not true. Orks are very strong in close combat but a unit able to put out 20 St 4 hits per turn while moving is also excellent. To say nothing of big blocks of lootas. You can stare at the BS2 all day but you need to factor in the sheer number of shots orks can put down field... the only thing they lack at range is heavy AT.

You're also wrong in assuming ork boyz will be running each turn and therefore unable to make much use of their shootas. You run every turn with sluggas, with shootas you run on the first turn, and after that you advance to an objective, putting out 60 shots as you go, once you're on the objective you sit there daring someone to try and clear out 30 orks. It's a basic, common use of a core ork unit, and I cannot believe you're unfamiliar with it.

Imeant to say wounds in that statement. Orks are my usual opponent and I'm sorry guys their shooting is pathetic. I already stated that obviously the more shots you get the more dice you roll thus more chances to hit. as for lootas never played anyone with a huge mob of them and if they roll 1-2 they only get one shot each with their crap bs of 2. Noone is arguing that more shots equals more chances all I said was on a shot for shot basis an ork boy with a shoota has a 16.5% of wounding with each shot. and that is true.

Uh huh, and at 6 points a model, you can get 60 shots fired at 12 (equal point cost at 15 pts a model) Space Marines and kill 3.33 of them. In a single volley they take out 29.6% of their squad. Now, for the other direction, the 12 SMs firing twice with rapid fire bolters get 24 shots, 16 hits, and 8 wounds, taking out 26.7% of the Ork squad.

The Orks just outshot the Space Marines.

Edit: Used the wrong point value for Space Marines

Badandy wrote:i was an honor math student way back in the day my math is solid. 33% on each shot. which is not 66% stop sleeping in math class bud. 2 dice 12 sides. only 5 and 6 are hits. Thats 2 sides of each dice so 4 sides hit. 4 out of 12 hit so follow closely now. out of 12 sides total 4 are hits Thats 33%. It doesnt matter that you roll 2 dice instead of one or one twice it's still 33% Now 4+ wounds so 50% of the dice sides are against you. follow. so an average of 50% of hits will wound correct. so you are left with the grande total of roughly 16.5% chance to wound. Unless someone can show me some solid math that proves otherwise than you just have to accept it. can't argue the math. and i'm only talkin bout shooting not charging. ipso facto ork shooting sucks.

Wow. Direct adding fractions together like that would have got me yelled at in year 7.

Look, each ork has two shots with a shoota. There are three distinct possibilities for each ork that fires his two shots;
He can hit twice. This has a 1/3 * 1/3 chance, or 1/9 or 11%.
He can hit once. This has a (1/3 * 2/3) + (1/3 * 2/3) chance, or 4/9 or 44%.
He can hit no times. This has a 2/3 * 2/3 chance, or 4/9 chance 44%.

As you can see, that all adds up to 9/9 or 99% (stupid rounding...). Quite neat.

From those basic odds you can extrapolate a few things, you can see that each ork that fires has a 44% chance of completely missing. But he also has a .44 + .11 chance of scoring at least one hit, thats the number Fafnir was giving. Meanwhile, the average number of hits for the ork boy is (1 * 4/9) + (2 * 1/9)... or .67 hits per ork.

But more importantly, Badandy, your understanding of probability is not good. In fact it's very poor. That's alright, not everyone has to be good at everything and there's plenty of fun to be had in this hobby without mathammering everything. But you really shouldn't be so aggressive when you don't know what you're talking about. Just chill, read a little more closely and maybe you'll learn a thing about how orks play and about probabilities.


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Vene wrote:20 will hit on average. I mean, it's really simple math, it's just 60 divided by 3. Against MEQs half of them will wound and of those 10 a third will get past the armor. So, they'll kill 3.33 MEQs on average.
For comparison, let's look at 60 shots from guardsmen carrying lasguns (they're a cheap, shooty unit). With a BS 3, 30 will hit. Against MEQs, a third will wound, so we're at 10 wounds, and a third of those will be unsaved, which leads to 3.33 dead MEQs. Um, yeah, that's the exact same as the shoota boyz. Guardsmen are supposed to shoot, but when shoota boyz can do it as well as them, I'm not going to ignore their firepower, that extra bit of strength means a lot.

Thing is, though, to get 60 guard shots you need 60 guardsman outside ranges of 12". They cost almost the same as orks, but you get half the shots at 12-18". Although I guess no-one takes guardsmen for the lasguns...