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Seaward wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Really? You can honestly only think of a FEW others?

You're aware that there are far more killy CC units out there than Assault Marines, right?

Name a few 10-man MEq squads that can pump out as many wounds in a single round of shooting and CC against T4 models, short of assault terminators (which will cost you about twice what 10 Assault Marines will).

And don't say Blood Claws, Blood Claws ARE a variant of Assault Marines.

Only ones I can think of are Khorne Berserkers and Daemonettes.

The answer is, there are none in the Vanilla codex that can do it. Or the variant codices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel the need to say this as well:

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely get where you're coming from. Assault Terminators do the job better than Assault Marines, yes, but they're also twice as expensive, and an Elites choice (where I'd personally rather have Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, and shooty Terminators).

Assault Marines aren't the best CC troops in the world, but they're still very good at it. Enough so that I will willingly take them in just about any Marines list.

I think you're discounting them a bit too much, and you don't quite see their killing potential. Having run them many times, I know first hand what they're capable of.

That's all.

SaintHazard wrote:

Seaward wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Really? You can honestly only think of a FEW others?

You're aware that there are far more killy CC units out there than Assault Marines, right?

Name a few 10-man MEq squads that can pump out as many wounds in a single round of shooting and CC against T4 models, short of assault terminators (which will cost you about twice what 10 Assault Marines will).

And don't say Blood Claws, Blood Claws ARE a variant of Assault Marines.

Only ones I can think of are Khorne Berserkers and Daemonettes.

The answer is, there are none in the Vanilla codex that can do it. Or the variant codices.

They have to be 10-man squads? 'Cause I can think of a couple that would do far more damage with fewer models. Honor Guard comes to mind, as the first example. Mathhammer out 5 Honor Guard with a RB on the Champion and a Chapter Banner against your orks...without the shooting, if you like.

Seaward wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Really? You can honestly only think of a FEW others?

You're aware that there are far more killy CC units out there than Assault Marines, right?

Most of which cost a helluvalot more or aren't as mobile (See terminators). Assault Marines may not be the most killy thing out there, but they're pretty damn killy when you have three full squads of them, fully upgraded, and they're all fleet-- so they have a 18+d6 inch assault threat to boot. And all of this being less than half of your army.

SaintHazard wrote:
I feel the need to say this as well:

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely get where you're coming from. Assault Terminators do the job better than Assault Marines, yes, but they're also twice as expensive, and an Elites choice (where I'd personally rather have Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, and shooty Terminators).

Assault Marines aren't the best CC troops in the world, but they're still very good at it. Enough so that I will willingly take them in just about any Marines list.

I think you're discounting them a bit too much, and you don't quite see their killing potential. Having run them many times, I know first hand what they're capable of.

That's all.

They're actually not twice as expensive, as you need a squad of five AssTerms to do what the 10 AssMarines can do. And, more to the point, the AssTerms can do MORE. Such as survive encounters with power weapons, CC specialists, etc, tackle hard-as-nails enemy units, and go on to do it all over again.

I'm not discounting them as a unit; they have their uses. I'm discounting the possibility of making an assault-focused list with the vanilla Codex and vanilla Assault Marines.

Seaward wrote:They're actually not twice as expensive, as you need a squad of five AssTerms to do what the 10 AssMarines can do.

Assault Terminators cannot do what Assault Marines can do.

(hint: jump pack movement is a bigger deal than you make it to be, as deep striking assault terminators are laughably open for fire during the turn they arrive so it's safer for them to have to come across the board in a land raider, which FURTHER adds to their expense)

You can only take 1 Honor Guard per Chapter Master. Absolute maximum would be 2 Honor Guard. 2 5-man squads, or 3 10-man squads for around the same price? I'll take the ones that are less likely to run away after two wounds.

But if you want me to mathhammer out Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, I can do that. Gimme a minute to run the numbers.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Really? You can honestly only think of a FEW others?

You're aware that there are far more killy CC units out there than Assault Marines, right?

Most of which cost a helluvalot more or aren't as mobile (See terminators). Assault Marines may not be the most killy thing out there, but they're pretty damn killy when you have three full squads of them, fully upgraded, and they're all fleet-- so they have a 18+d6 inch assault threat to boot. And all of this being less than half of your army.

They're all Fleet only when you're running Shrike. Interestingly, I'd consider CC scouts to be a better buy if you wanted a crapload of non-PW attacks on the charge while running Shrike. A lot less expensive, and just about as lethal. You're also not giving up the highly mobile anti-tank FA slots to gain a horde of anti-light-infantry troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:You can only take 1 Honor Guard per Chapter Master. Absolute maximum would be 2 Honor Guard. 2 5-man squads, or 3 10-man squads for around the same price? I'll take the ones that are less likely to run away after two wounds.

But if you want me to mathhammer out Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, I can do that. Gimme a minute to run the numbers.

Actually, you could take three if you ran Papa Smurf.

I have no idea why you'd ever want more than one five-man squad, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:They're actually not twice as expensive, as you need a squad of five AssTerms to do what the 10 AssMarines can do.

Assault Terminators cannot do what Assault Marines can do.

(hint: jump pack movement is a bigger deal than you make it to be, as deep striking assault terminators are laughably open for fire during the turn they arrive so it's safer for them to have to come across the board in a land raider, which FURTHER adds to their expense)

A Land Raider adds to their expense, yeah. But it also adds quite considerably to the list in ways beyond transportation.

Jump infantry's great, but it's also no less vulnerable to weight of fire or templates than footslogging Tacticals.

Assault Terminators will kill anything Assault Marines will kill. Can the same be said about Assault Marines killing anything Assault Terminators can kill? I think we all know that's not the case.

Alright, here's 5 Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, with shooting:

4 Honor Guards (one with Chapter Banner), 1 Chapter Champion (with Relic Blade), shooting and assaulting:

5 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
6 S6 relic blade attacks
16 S4 power weapon attacks

5 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.665)
6 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 3 wounds (rounded down from 3.329)
20 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 5 wounds
End result = 10 wounds

Nope, sorry. Not as good as an assault squad - even without flamers.

Edit: Fixed for proper number of attacks, which yields one extra wound, which still doesn't trump Assault Marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can sit here and do this all day, dude. Want me to do assault terminators with lightning claws?

SaintHazard wrote:Alright, here's 5 Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, with shooting:

4 Honor Guards (one with Chapter Banner), 1 Chapter Champion (with Relic Blade), shooting and assaulting:

5 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
6 S6 relic blade attacks
16 S4 power weapon attacks

5 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.665)
6 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 3 wounds (rounded down from 3.329)
16 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 4 wounds
End result = 9 wounds

Nope, sorry. Not as good as an assault squad - even without flamers.

The number of attacks you've assigned to...well, everybody...is wrong.

The Power Fist on the Assault Squad Sergeant only has 3 attacks, 2 basic + 1 for charging.

3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded down from 1.25)

Additionally, Saint Hazard's analysis is useless without assessing the cost of charging the Orks. The Orks take four casualties from the Assault Squad's shooting, and then seven casualties from the Assault squad's...assault. That means there are 18 Orks left, and an Ork Nob who will be armed with a Power Klaw. If the unit is a Slugga unit, then the Boyz will have 54 attacks, and if the unit is a Shoota unit, then the Boyz will have 36 attacks. The Nob will have 3 attacks either way.

Following the format above:

54 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.94)
v
36 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.96)
&
3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded down from 1.25)

So the Assault Marines win 7:3v4, meaning 3 more casualties from No Retreat!

So the Tactical Squad armed entirely with Bolters and a Plasma Pistol can be expected to score 7 casualties on the Orks, while incurring none of their own.

The Assault Squad armed with Bolt Pistols and a Plasma Pistol can be expected to score 14 casualties while incurring 3 casualties of their own and being locked in close combat with a unit of Ork Boyz.

Now let's suppose that the Tactical Squad Sergeant wasn't wasting his time with a Power Fist and instead had a Combi-Melta. He's not going to use the Melta part, but the Bolter, to replace the Bolter that's upgraded to a Plasma Gun, and of course the Heavy Bolter comes for free. Let's charitably accept that the squad will not have moved, since we are likewise accepting that the unit will not Combat Squad to maximize its firepower.

16 * 4/6 * 3/6 = 5 casualties (rounding down from 5.33)
2 * 4/6 * 5/6 = 1 casualty (rounding down from 1.11)
3 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 1 casualty (rounding down from 1.31)

Same result, and then 23 angry Orks will charge them next turn. Unless they were over 16" away, which is reasonable if the Assault Squad moved 12" to get into assault range and the Tactical Squad stood still. In which case:

8 * 4/6 * 3/6 = 3 casualties (rounding down from 2.64)
1 * 4/6 * 5/6 = 1 casualty (rounding up from 0.55)
3 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 1 casualty (rounding down from 1.31)

So consider a two turn scenario whereby the Assault Squad assaults, and the Tactical Squad shoots, at a Ork mob the leading edge of which is 17" away. After the first turn, the Space Marine player turn, the score can reasonably be assumed to be 14:3 for the Assault Marines and 5:0 for the Tactical Marines.

In the following Ork turn the Orks receive no reinforcements, for the sake of argument, and either remain locked with the Assault Marines, or move 6" and either shoot if Shootas and run if Sluggas.

In the assault we have 15 Ork Boyz attacking after 6 Assault Marines, and before the Assault Sergeant and the Nob.

Marines: 12 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 casualties (rounded down from 2.49)
Sluggas: 45 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2 casualties (rounded down from 2.45)
Sergeant: 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 (rounded up from 0.83)
Nob: 3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 (rounded down from 1.25)

It's a draw. Points-wise the Orks have killed more Space Marines, and at this rate can reasonably expected to grind the Assault Marines to nothing.

Against the Tactical Marines the Shoota Boyz shoot. Having lost 5 Shoota Boyz in the previous turn, we can reasonably expect 48 shots. That's:

48 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 3 casualties (rounding up from 2.61)

The Slugga Boyz run 4", putting their leading edge at 7" from the Tactical Squad.

In the second Space Marine turn we have the Assault Squad continue to fight:

Marines: 6 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 casualty (rounded down from 1.25)
Sluggas: 36 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2 casualties (rounded up from 1.96)
Sergeant: 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 (rounded up from 0.83)
Nob: 3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1 (rounded down from 1.25)

The Sergeant, all that can be expected to be left, loses the combat by 1. Ouch...If he has Combat Tactics, then he can automatically duck out of combat (well, 72% chance of not being caught in the Sweeping Advance) and head 3D6 away from the Orks, and probably Rally automatically if the Orks consolidate 4" towards him and he moves 11".

The 7 Tactical Marines continue their torrent of fire against the Orks whose leading edge is within 11" of their own.

8 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 3 casualties (2.64 rounded down)
3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1 casualty (1.30 rounded down)
2 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 casualty (1.10 rounded down)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 casualty (0.55 rounded up)

So, disregarding sensible tactics, armies, terrain, and all that other stuff that doesn't happen on the Internet, all we can 'clearly' see if that Assault Squads net a higher but costlier return on investment early on, and eventually end up disappearing. The Tactical Squads are less riskier, but give lower returns. They're the GICs of the Space Marines.

Did I? Let's see...

Chapter Champion gets 3 attacks, 4 for the bolt pistol, 5 for the charge, 6 for the banner.

Vets get 2 attacks, 3 for the bolt pistol, 4 for the charge, 5 for the banner.

You're right! The vets need 20 attacks, not 16. My bad!

Lemme fix that real quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch: we're arguing purely based on killing power here against T4 models. You're bringing factors into the equation that don't need to be there. Killing power only dude!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, fixed for number of attacks, which added 1 wound to the end result. Still not up to Assault Marine quality!

SaintHazard wrote:Did I? Let's see...

Chapter Champion gets 3 attacks, 4 for the bolt pistol, 5 for the charge, 6 for the banner.

Vets get 2 attacks, 3 for the bolt pistol, 4 for the charge, 5 for the banner.

You're right! The vets need 20 attacks, not 16. My bad!

Lemme fix that real quick.

The HG without the Relic Blade need 20 attacks, correct. However, the Champion with the RB doesn't get his extra attack for the bolt pistol, as the RB's two-handed.

And, as pointed out by the gent above me in far more mathematical detail than I'd care to go into, "theoretical wounds on the charge" doesn't exactly tell the whole story.

I'll be generous and give him 6 attacks anyway, just to make the point that the squad's not as killy as assault marines.

Also, like I said, we're talking killing power against T4 models here. If you really want to bring more factors into the equation, let's pit them against Gaunts. Or Berserkers. Or models with defensive grenades. Or through cover. And this is going to become a very long and drawn-out topic with way more mathhammer than it actually needs.

The point is, assault marines are one of the killiest CC units in the Vanilla codex, and one of the most mobile on top of that (especially with Shrike, which a good assault-based vanilla list should have), especially for their cost.

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Aren't they Str4 on the charge? And I can think of plenty of units that can destroy mobs of boyz. Sternguard, 2 TFCs, A full squad of Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest, Sky Claws with a Wolf Priest, Assault Terminators, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers, CSMs with 2 flamers and MoK, 15 Burnas in a Battlewagon, a Squadron of Leman Russ' with the gattling cannons. I play Orks and I believe they are super powerful, but 30 Boyz are not the be all and end all of CC. They are good, if they get the charge, but they are a glass axe for sure.

They're excellent for mopping up stray enemy units, but you're going to lose the war if you keep charging them into 30-strong mobs of Orks. Khorne Berzerkers are just about the only 10-strong unit that can do that with any reasonable rate of success, and that's because they're freakin' Berzerkers.

SaintHazard wrote:You can only take 1 Honor Guard per Chapter Master. Absolute maximum would be 2 Honor Guard. 2 5-man squads, or 3 10-man squads for around the same price? I'll take the ones that are less likely to run away after two wounds.

But if you want me to mathhammer out Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, I can do that. Gimme a minute to run the numbers.

I think they meant BA honor guard, no Chapter Master required.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:You can only take 1 Honor Guard per Chapter Master. Absolute maximum would be 2 Honor Guard. 2 5-man squads, or 3 10-man squads for around the same price? I'll take the ones that are less likely to run away after two wounds.

But if you want me to mathhammer out Honor Guard versus 30 Boyz, I can do that. Gimme a minute to run the numbers.

I think they meant BA honor guard, no Chapter Master required.

Nope, see above. We're talking Vanilla.

SaintHazard wrote:I'll be generous and give him 6 attacks anyway, just to make the point that the squad's not as killy as assault marines.

Also, like I said, we're talking killing power against T4 models here. If you really want to bring more factors into the equation, let's pit them against Gaunts. Or Berserkers. Or models with defensive grenades. Or through cover. And this is going to become a very long and drawn-out topic with way more mathhammer than it actually needs.

The point is, assault marines are one of the killiest CC units in the Vanilla codex, and one of the most mobile on top of that (especially with Shrike, which a good assault-based vanilla list should have), especially for their cost.

"Killing power against T4 models" doesn't boil down to how many theoretical wounds you can inflict on the charge, unfortunately, unless you can reliably wipe the squad out. A squad of 5 Honor Guard is a grand total of two wounds behind a squad of 10 Assault Marines on the charge, according to your mathhammer; if we did as you initially wanted and actually compared 10-man squads, it wouldn't even be a contest.

Assault Marines aren't one of the "killiest CC units in the vanilla Codex," because everything else, in equal numbers, with the exception of CCW Scouts, will out-kill them without trouble - and also out-survive them. The two SM codices that are actually viable CC list options have definably better Assault Marines, but we didn't get to compare those 'cause, you know, "they're all basically Assault Marines." They are all Assault Marines, but BA and SW Assault Marines are much, much better.

As far as a "good assault-based vanilla list" goes, I've asked a couple times now to see one. I posit that they don't exist, because it can't be done with the vanilla codex.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Aren't they Str4 on the charge?

Boyz are S3, unless they have a special rule I missed somewhere that gives them +1S on the charge.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Sternguard, 2 TFCs, A full squad of Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest, Sky Claws with a Wolf Priest, Assault Terminators, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers, CSMs with 2 flamers and MoK, 15 Burnas in a Battlewagon, a Squadron of Leman Russ' with the gattling cannons. I play Orks and I believe they are super powerful, but 30 Boyz are not the be all and end all of CC. They are good, if they get the charge, but they are a glass axe for sure.

None of these you just mentioned can force a mob of 30 Boyz to actually run away in a single turn, with the exception of 10 (not 5, but 10) Assault Terminators. Most of your examples are null and void anyway, since we're talking Vanilla Marines, not CSM, SW, or Orks.

Nurglitch wrote:They're excellent for mopping up stray enemy units, but you're going to lose the war if you keep charging them into 30-strong mobs of Orks. Khorne Berzerkers are just about the only 10-strong unit that can do that with any reasonable rate of success, and that's because they're freakin' Berzerkers.

If your enemy is fielding 90 Boyz, and you're fielding 30 Assault Marines, you CAN win that one. It can be done. You can at least force the Orks to run by the second turn of combat, if not the first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're going to insist on seeing a list, give me until tonight to put it together. I don't want to try it with this .pdf, I want my actual codex in front of me.

SaintHazard wrote:
If you're going to insist on seeing a list, give me until tonight to put it together. I don't want to try it with this .pdf, I want my actual codex in front of me.

Yeah, go nuts. I'd love to see a 30 Assault Marine list that isn't going to die a horrible death to BA, SW, IG, etc.

Seaward wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:
If you're going to insist on seeing a list, give me until tonight to put it together. I don't want to try it with this .pdf, I want my actual codex in front of me.

Yeah, go nuts. I'd love to see a 30 Assault Marine list that isn't going to die a horrible death to BA, SW, IG, etc.

Bear in mind, Assault Marines are only a Fast Attack choice, and one of the better FA choices in the SM codex.

Back them up with the right stuff, and you're golden.

Probably Shrike (for Fleet, and his beautiful claws) and a Jump Chaplain (for Liturgies).

I'll have to see what I want to put in other slots. Like I said, gimme until tonight.

Granted, an Assault Marine-centric list will only work at higher point values, 2000 and up, since the way I put them together, Assault Squads will be 750 points of your army.

But like I said, gimme until tonight and I'll whip up a list for you.

SaintHazard wrote:
Bear in mind, Assault Marines are only a Fast Attack choice, and one of the better FA choices in the SM codex.

Back them up with the right stuff, and you're golden.

Probably Shrike (for Fleet, and his beautiful claws) and a Jump Chaplain (for Liturgies).

I'll have to see what I want to put in other slots. Like I said, gimme until tonight.

Granted, an Assault Marine-centric list will only work at higher point values, 2000 and up, since the way I put them together, Assault Squads will be 750 points of your army.

But like I said, gimme until tonight and I'll whip up a list for you.

Really? I personally believe HF/MM speeders are the only realistic FA choice in the 'nilla dex if you're not running a bike army.

Three fully-kitted Assault Squads run at 705 points. They're not scoring, and they can be killed just as easily as footslogging Tacticals.

But I'll give you an opportunity to post your list.

Actually, I run AC/MM speeders. They're more expensive, but AC fanboyism finds its way into my lists any way it can.

But that's even more off topic than our previous discussion.

SaintHazard wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:Aren't they Str4 on the charge?

Boyz are S3, unless they have a special rule I missed somewhere that gives them +1S on the charge.

Furious Charge.

Okay, just a quick list I whipped up in about ten minutes:

1990

Shrike 195

Chaplain 130
Jump Pack, Power Fist

5 Tactical Marines 165
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

5 Tactical Marines 165
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

5 Tactical Marines 165
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

Dreadnought 135
TL Lascannon, Heavy Flamer

5 Terminators 235
Assault Cannon, Chainfist

10 Assault Marines 235
2 Flamers, Power Fist

10 Assault Marines 235
2 Flamers, Power Fist

Land Speeder 70
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm trying to think of a way to move points around to switch that Land Speeder to 10 more Assault Marines, but I don't think I can unless I go up to 2500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's my 2500 list.

AFK for a bit, having dinner.

2500

Shrike 195

Chaplain 130
Jump Pack, Power Fist

5 Tactical Marines 175
Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

5 Tactical Marines 175
Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

5 Tactical Marines 175
Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

5 Tactical Marines 175
Combi-Melta
Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasma

Dreadnought 145
TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher

Dreadnought 125
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

5 Terminators 250
Assault Cannon, 4 Chainfists

10 Assault Marines 235
2 Flamers, Power Fist

10 Assault Marines 235
2 Flamers, Power Fist

10 Assault Marines 235
2 Flamers, Power Fist

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

2000 points and only 15 models capable of scoring.

I think I'm beginning to understand why we're not going to see eye to eye on a lot of things.

You only need 15 if all they're doing is sitting on objectives.

The Assault Marines, Terminators, and Sternguard will be doing the legwork. That's the whole point of the list.

Besides, if they get destroyed the list still has more than enough killing power to decimate the enemy and ensure it's a draw or you table them.

Melissia wrote:Besides, if they get destroyed the list still has more than enough killing power to decimate the enemy and ensure it's a draw or you table them.

Or at the very least contest every objective he's sitting on.

SaintHazard wrote:You only need 15 if all they're doing is sitting on objectives.

The Assault Marines, Terminators, and Sternguard will be doing the legwork. That's the whole point of the list.

Uh, what Sternguard?

Also, not for nothing, but the list would be a lot deadlier if you ditched the Assault Squads in favor of a TH/SS Terminator squad in a Land Raider, and replaced the Tactical Terminators with TH/SS Terminators...to go with Shrike, of course. Less of a chance of Death by Plasma Template, better target saturation, better assault, etc.