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I have Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Dark Angels. I want to field a close combat list, and neither of them will really work well for that. I like jump infantry, but not quite as much as I like assault in general. I'm told the new BA codex would work well for what I want, but I hate BA vampire fluff and I have an aversion to using Counts-As named characters, so all of their decent close combat ICs are pretty much out, as I want a non-librarian, non-chaplain "main" HQ unit, purely for fluff reasons, and their vanilla captains are terrible compared to Codex: Space Marines vanilla captains. Other than their (for me) extremely limited and downright bad HQ options, they look great. Space Wolves sound like they might work - who doesn't like space Vikings, even if they are werewolves - but they have no successful successor chapters, and I'm going for a DIY. Black Templars are a possibility, but from what I understand their CC assault options are pretty much limited to Land Raider spam.

So here's the part where I ask you to tell me about the Codex: Seaward's Ideal SM Chapter book floating around out there that I've somehow missed, or at least convince me that a Blood Angel codex vanilla captain with a Storm Shield and a Thunder Hammer - why the hell they can't take Artificer Armor and a Relic Blade is beyond me, 'cause I'd have absolutely no complaints if they could - wouldn't totally blow.

Run SM w/ Shrike?

All your units are now fleet, move up, rapid fire, assault.

Also who gives a frak if GW says the SW have no successful successor chapters, that's the whole point of DIY, make them have one

well....
if you just want to smash people BA is where its at. If you dont want to run them SW are strong, but you have to be willing to run thunderwolves to get the most out of that book. I disagree with the person who told you LR spam is the only thing black templars have going for them. Preferred Enemy and Scout-Chumps in the squads are what make them strong. The LR spam is because of ceramite plating, which makes a LR wwwaaayyyy better than it is in the other books. So it's more like you'd *want* to spam them than that you'd *have* to. C:SM and DA basic line troopers blow in close assault, though at least for Codex marines they have hard core terminators.

IMO you will eventually have to decide whether its more important to you to be fluffy or to be competitive, since beyond a certain point those two roads lead to different places.
AF

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Run SM w/ Shrike?

All your units are now fleet, move up, rapid fire, assault.

Also who gives a frak if GW says the SW have no successful successor chapters, that's the whole point of DIY, make them have one

Thought about the Shrike thing; trouble is, I'm not really sure it would help. Shrike's far and away my favorite IC of the C:SM book, but the only lists I've seen with him are kinda gimmicky - infiltrating, fleeting Assault Terminators, basically. I'm not sure that giving Tacticals fleet really would go as far towards an assault army as I'm looking, because there's only so much assault you can actually cram into a vanilla codex list, and the only option that's worthwhile is the aforementioned Assault Terminators. Those need a Land Raider to get anywhere, and that really makes them more of a counterpunch unit rather than a list focus. Even if they're with Shrike, they'll potentially get a first-turn assault and then spend a lot of time getting shot while the shooty rest of the list does what C:SM dictates it must.

Uh, where are you getting the notion from that Fleet units can use Rapid Fire weapons and assault in the same turn? Fleet units can assault after they run.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well....
if you just want to smash people BA is where its at. If you dont want to run them SW are strong, but you have to be willing to run thunderwolves to get the most out of that book. I disagree with the person who told you LR spam is the only thing black templars have going for them. Preferred Enemy and Scout-Chumps in the squads are what make them strong. The LR spam is because of ceramite plating, which makes a LR wwwaaayyyy better than it is in the other books. So it's more like you'd *want* to spam them than that you'd *have* to. C:SM and DA basic line troopers blow in close assault, though at least for Codex marines they have hard core terminators.

IMO you will eventually have to decide whether its more important to you to be fluffy or to be competitive, since beyond a certain point those two roads lead to different places.
AF

Fluffy's definitely more important, but I don't want to have a completely gimped - or illegal - list. Blood Angels are perfect, except for their HQ units. Dunno why, just don't like taking Chaplains or Librarians as Force Commanders, and on some level I just like having a CC monster HQ unit in charge of the show. Their vampire fluff is easy enough to get rid of - the Lamenters did it, after all - but the fact that their vanilla HQ units are pathetic is really the only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger on them.

Marines are marines. Put the books in front of you and close your eyes and pick one. If you want to be competetive pick the latest codex creep and go SW or BA.

well.... I agree that their HQ section isnt the best. Chaplains and Librarians are the standard answer, and I know what you mean it doesnt seem fluffy.... the captain seems kind of lame to me too. The SCs are a little too pricey but they can definitely fight. Or you could just take a captain. He's not very good I know but the rest of the force is really really strong, so in the balance you'll still be playing a strong army.... especially if you dont mind the vampire-angel-artificer-of-ridiculousness fluff..... Your average joe blood angel is just such a monster that Im not sure you really need an uber strong hq. I just ran 40 of those lunatics when I was playing them

I always liked space wolves fluff personally. They're fun. Space Marines answer to Orks
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well.... I agree that their HQ section isnt the best. Chaplains and Librarians are the standard answer, and I know what you mean it doesnt seem fluffy.... the captain seems kind of lame to me too. The SCs are a little too pricey but they can definitely fight. Or you could just take a captain. He's not very good I know but the rest of the force is really really strong, so in the balance you'll still be playing a strong army.... especially if you dont mind the vampire-angel-artificer-of-ridiculousness fluff..... Your average joe blood angel is just such a monster that Im not sure you really need an uber strong hq. I just ran 40 of those lunatics when I was playing them

I always liked space wolves fluff personally. They're fun. Space Marines answer to Orks
AF

I guess I'll just have to run a TH/SS jump captain and deal with it, though having the company commander being less of a threat than any individual member of the squad he joins is going to rub me the wrong way forever.

And yeah. Space Vikings > space vampires any day of the week. It's just a shame I don't like the mechanics of their codex as much.

word

You're arguing over the difference between oatmeal cookies and chocolate chip cookies when other armies out there are delicious Italian dinners, guilty pleasure Chinese buffets, home cooked goodness from the Bayou and every other taste imaginable under the sun. They're fuggin space marines, so alike that it's bordering on ludicrous hair splitting to say how you like one over the other.

Challenge yourself to expand your horizons. Try a different army. You say you want an emphasis on close combat. I can almost hear Orks and Tyranids jumping up and down waving their hands (claws) in the back of the classroom saying 'Pick me, pick me!'.

SumYungGui wrote:You're arguing over the difference between oatmeal cookies and chocolate chip cookies when other armies out there are delicious Italian dinners, guilty pleasure Chinese buffets, home cooked goodness from the Bayou and every other taste imaginable under the sun. They're fuggin space marines, so alike that it's bordering on ludicrous hair splitting to say how you like one over the other.

Challenge yourself to expand your horizons. Try a different army. You say you want an emphasis on close combat. I can almost hear Orks and Tyranids jumping up and down waving their hands (claws) in the back of the classroom saying 'Pick me, pick me!'.

Unfortunately, I'm just in the mood for cookies. Trouble is I want oatmeal chocolate chip ones.

Blood Angels really would be perfect without their dumb Red Thirst rule.

I was going to say BT...

But then I saw the Shrike suggestion earlier in this thread, and couldn't agree more.

Scout Snipers to hold objectives, Assault Squads to do your real damage, and Shrike to lead them to victory.

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, where are you getting the notion from that Fleet units can use Rapid Fire weapons and assault in the same turn? Fleet units can assault after they run.

Nurglitch is correct. Fleet units cannot Rapid Fire and then assault. Relentless units can.

I recommend Space Wolves simply because I like Space Wolves better. And taste is what it comes down to yes?

SaintHazard wrote:I was going to say BT...

But then I saw the Shrike suggestion earlier in this thread, and couldn't agree more.

Scout Snipers to hold objectives, Assault Squads to do your real damage, and Shrike to lead them to victory.

Vanilla Assault Squads are kind of useless for anything save killing stuff that's weaker than they are, though. The best they can do against actual MEQ assault units is tarpit.

Seaward wrote:Vanilla Assault Squads are kind of useless for anything save killing stuff that's weaker than they are, though.

What.

Now, maybe I've been using out of date codices too much, but 225 points for ten MEQs with two flamers and a sergeant with power weapon is NOT "useless".

What she said, except exchange "power weapon" for "power fist."

Also, my Assault Sergeant usually has a plasma pistol, but that's optional. An extra shot against rear tank armor at S7 is worth it to me though.

I'd have to pay 260-275 points for a Seraphim squad with the same setup. I'd say the Assault Marines definitely got the better deal, but people still try and claim Seraphim aren't overpriced.

Yeah, Blood Angels assault marines are slightly better... well, most of the time anyway*... as they pay less for special weapons but I think Fleet more than makes up for this.



*(as long as they don't get Red Thirst, which replaces ATSKNF with furious charge and fearless, so an intelligent opponent will just negate the former by charging the unit and take advantage of the latter by attempting to win combat resolution however they can, thus causing casualties due to fearless)

Seaward
agree. vanilla assault squads are dumb.
why dont you like red thirst?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Seaword
agree. vanilla assault squads are dumb.
why dont you like red thirst?

This:

Melissia wrote:[...]*(as long as they don't get Red Thirst, which replaces ATSKNF with furious charge and fearless, so an intelligent opponent will just negate the former by charging the unit and take advantage of the latter by attempting to win combat resolution however they can, thus causing casualties due to fearless)

Losing ATSKNF for fearless is a very powerful negative for an assault squad. ATSKNF combined with combat tactics is win. Fearless in assault is a losing situation.

disagree.
The Blood Angels probably won't lose an assault if they charge, but lets say they do....
And lets say they have red thirst, which has only a 1 in 6 chance...
then in that case they take 3+ saves, which gives them a 66% chance to live...
and if you have your priest around, which you really should, they'll save half of the 33% that get through, giving them about an 82% cance of living...

The odds of taking no retreat wounds from red thirst are just so small they're not even worth talking about. If you want to reform and counter attack them then I agree that will help but remember it only works if you *lost* the combat which is hardly a good starting point, and only if you lost it in their turn so that you can charge them in the next assault phase, and also since you lost the combat so you'll be hitting with a reduced squad. If you add in combat squads like you were saying you'll be hitting with I guess 3 marines? Hardly game changing.
AF

How is a squad of 10 MEqs with 3 S4 attacks on the charge, a power fist, an 18+d6" assault range (with Shrike), and the ability to break off combat at will if they lose (Combat Tactics) and regroup (ATSKNF) and charge a second time in two turns "dumb?"

And I4 for Sweeping Advances if they WIN?

Assault Squads are extremely versatile assault troops that can do some absolutely horrid damage in CC when used properly.

Blood Angels do have a slight advantage over Vanilla Assault Marines 5 times out of 6, but this doesn't mean Vanilla Assault Marines are "dumb" or "useless."

Due to the above reasons, they're also the only assault troops in the entire game that, due to Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, have the advantage even if they lose the combat.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Vanilla Assault Squads are kind of useless for anything save killing stuff that's weaker than they are, though.

What.

Now, maybe I've been using out of date codices too much, but 225 points for ten MEQs with two flamers and a sergeant with power weapon is NOT "useless".

It has uses, but its uses are things that even Tacticals could handle just as well. They're a dedicated CC unit, but a dedicated CC unit that's not hard enough or killy enough to do the job against anything of comparable strength. They're useful with a Jump Captain, but at that point they're essentially just a Jump Captain delivery system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Seaward
agree. vanilla assault squads are dumb.
why dont you like red thirst?

I don't like Red Thirst for fluff nerd reasons. My DIY chapter isn't a BA successor. Also, I hate space vampires.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Vanilla Assault Squads are kind of useless for anything save killing stuff that's weaker than they are, though.

What.

Now, maybe I've been using out of date codices too much, but 225 points for ten MEQs with two flamers and a sergeant with power weapon is NOT "useless".

It has uses, but its uses are things that even Tacticals could handle just as well. They're a dedicated CC unit, but a dedicated CC unit that's not hard enough or killy enough to do the job against anything of comparable strength. They're useful with a Jump Captain, but at that point they're essentially just a Jump Captain delivery system.

They're a 10 wound, 31 attack, 8 shot, and 2 flamer template Jump Captain delivery system.

In other words, they do more than the Jump Captain himself could hope to do.

Now that I think about it, they don't sound like a Jump Captain delivery system at all!

SaintHazard wrote:How is a squad of 10 MEqs with 3 S4 attacks on the charge, a power fist, an 18+d6" assault range (with Shrike), and the ability to break off combat at will if they lose (Combat Tactics) and regroup (ATSKNF) and charge a second time in two turns "dumb?"

And I4 for Sweeping Advances if they WIN?

Assault Squads are extremely versatile assault troops that can do some absolutely horrid damage in CC when used properly.

Blood Angels do have a slight advantage over Vanilla Assault Marines 5 times out of 6, but this doesn't mean Vanilla Assault Marines are "dumb" or "useless."

Due to the above reasons, they're also the only assault troops in the entire game that, due to Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, have the advantage even if they lose the combat.

Again, they're not a terrible unit, but they're absolutely blown away by Assault Terminators for anything short of killing huge paper-thin hordes - and they're far from the only unit that vanilla Marines have that can kill huge paper-thin hordes, and those other units are more versatile. The stuff you usually throw Assault Terminators at will wipe the floor with Assault Squads.

As a counter-assault unit, they're fine. Soften up their intended target, then throw them at it when they can't lose. Works. But that's hardly the assault focus I'm looking for in a list. Blood Angels can have that assault focus; unfortunately, they also have the Red Thirst rule, and now that I actually have the BA Codex, I've discovered Red Thirst is even worse than I thought it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:Vanilla Assault Squads are kind of useless for anything save killing stuff that's weaker than they are, though.

What.

Now, maybe I've been using out of date codices too much, but 225 points for ten MEQs with two flamers and a sergeant with power weapon is NOT "useless".

It has uses, but its uses are things that even Tacticals could handle just as well. They're a dedicated CC unit, but a dedicated CC unit that's not hard enough or killy enough to do the job against anything of comparable strength. They're useful with a Jump Captain, but at that point they're essentially just a Jump Captain delivery system.

They're a 10 wound, 31 attack, 8 shot, and 2 flamer template Jump Captain delivery system.

In other words, they do more than the Jump Captain himself could hope to do.

Now that I think about it, they don't sound like a Jump Captain delivery system at all!

They will do more than a Jump Captain could hope to do against hordes, sure. So will Tacticals. In CC against decent CC specialists, they're going to get pasted.

But hey, if you think you can make an assault-focused vanilla codex list that's not crippled, I'd love to see it. I don't think you can, as the codex simply isn't designed to work that way.

Paper-thin hordes are not easily defeated by Tac squads. 24 BS4 S4 shots at 12" sounds nice as first, but let's examine the mathhammer here... a Tac squad against a mob of 30 Boyz, and an assault squad against a mob of 30 Boyz. And to be nice to the Tac squad, I won't even give the Assault squad two flamers (note they're the only unit in the entire codex that can do that!)

Tac squad (bolters, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), shooting then assaulting:

9 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4
18 S4 attacks
4 S8 power fist attacks

9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.997)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
18 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 4 wounds (rounded up from 3.749)
4 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.666)
End result = 10 wounds

Tac squad (bolters, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), just shooting:

18 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4

18 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 6 wounds (rounded up from 5.999)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
End result = 7 wounds

Assault squad (chainsword, bolt pistol, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), shooting then assaulting:

9 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4
27 S4 attacks
4 S8 power fist attacks

9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.997)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
27 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 6 wounds (rounded up from 5.625)
4 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.666)
End result = 12 wounds


And there you have it. An assault squad, even without flamers on the charge (which put out a lot more than an average quarter of a wound per shot like bolt pistols) beat a Tac squad at killing Boyz, regardless of whether the Tac squad is shooting and assaulting or just shooting. Now, can you beef up that Tac squad with, say one more shot, from a Heavy Bolter, and a frag missile? Yes. Is it going to make a difference? Not enough to beat an assault squad.

Tac squads are for holding objectives. Assault squads are for killin'.

SaintHazard wrote:Paper-thin hordes are not easily defeated by Tac squads. 24 BS4 S4 shots at 12" sounds nice as first, but let's examine the mathhammer here... a Tac squad against a mob of 30 Boyz, and an assault squad against a mob of 30 Boyz. And to be nice to the Tac squad, I won't even give the Assault squad two flamers (note they're the only unit in the entire codex that can do that!)

Tac squad (bolters, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), shooting then assaulting:

9 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4
18 S4 attacks
4 S8 power fist attacks

9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.997)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
18 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 4 wounds (rounded up from 3.749)
4 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.666)
End result = 10 wounds

Tac squad (bolters, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), just shooting:

18 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4

18 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 6 wounds (rounded up from 5.999)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
End result = 7 wounds

Assault squad (chainsword, bolt pistol, sarge w/ power fist, plasma pistol), shooting then assaulting:

9 S4 AP5 shots at BS4
1 S7 AP2 shot at BS4
27 S4 attacks
4 S8 power fist attacks

9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.997)
1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1 wound (rounded up from .555)
27 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 6 wounds (rounded up from 5.625)
4 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 wounds (rounded up from 1.666)
End result = 12 wounds


And there you have it. An assault squad, even without flamers on the charge (which put out a lot more than an average quarter of a wound per shot like bolt pistols) beat a Tac squad at killing Boyz, regardless of whether the Tac squad is shooting and assaulting or just shooting. Now, can you beef up that Tac squad with, say one more shot, from a Heavy Bolter, and a frag missile? Yes. Is it going to make a difference? Not enough to beat an assault squad.

Tac squads are for holding objectives. Assault squads are for killin'.

Last I checked, Tac squads can run a flamer too. Two would be nice, but a ML isn't exactly shoddy at horde removal. Might want to consider it with the standard Flamer/ML loadout. You'll find it's just as good at killing a horde as Assault Marines.

But that's not even what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that Assault Marines are a mediocre assault unit that will undoubtedly beat up on stuff that's clearly weaker at CC than they are, and fall to competent CC squads. They're no more durable than Tacticals and they're far, far less versatile. Throwing them at big gribblies is just going to get them killed. They're not worth their points, and building a list around them is impossible. In short, the vanilla Codex simply doesn't allow you to play an assault-focused chapter without gimping yourself.

How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well....
if you just want to smash people BA is where its at. If you dont want to run them SW are strong, but you have to be willing to run thunderwolves to get the most out of that book. I disagree with the person who told you LR spam is the only thing black templars have going for them. Preferred Enemy and Scout-Chumps in the squads are what make them strong. The LR spam is because of ceramite plating, which makes a LR wwwaaayyyy better than it is in the other books. So it's more like you'd *want* to spam them than that you'd *have* to. C:SM and DA basic line troopers blow in close assault, though at least for Codex marines they have hard core terminators.

IMO you will eventually have to decide whether its more important to you to be fluffy or to be competitive, since beyond a certain point those two roads lead to different places.
AF

You don't need TWC to play Space Wolves. I have been playing Space Wolves since the new codex came out and I don't run TWC. I have yet to lose a game with the SW, I have tied about 10 of 40, Their CC capabilities are amazing. Take two squads of BC in a LRC with a Wolf Priest and smash whatever you hit. I do agree with your assessment of the Black Templars however. They are still good just a little over costed and with out all the benefits of being a new codex.

SaintHazard wrote:How are 30 Boyz not a competent CC squad? 30 Boyz is one of the best CC squads in the entire game. A T4 unit with 120 S3 attacks on the charge at WS4 (and that's with ZERO upgrades)? They are competent - no, they're more than competent at CC.

And an assault squad with two flamers is one of the few units in the game that has the (potential) killing power to make them run away, short of 30 Gaunts or another Boyz Mob!

Really? You can honestly only think of a FEW others?

You're aware that there are far more killy CC units out there than Assault Marines, right?