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Truly, SaintHazard is a tactical genius.

No it wouldn't. Just pop the land raider and leave the Assault Terminators out in the open ready to be annihilated.

It's not something I haven't done a thousand times over.

Oh wait yes it is.

Melissia wrote:No it wouldn't. Just pop the land raider and leave the Assault Terminators out in the open ready to be annihilated.

It's not something I haven't done a thousand times over.

Oh wait yes it is.

You're more than welcome to. That's the idea behind target saturation. The list doesn't fall apart if the Land Raider gets popped, because the real threat to whatever I'm running at 2000 points would be the Vindicators and the Laserbacks, as easy as the latter are to blow up.

So what? I'll pop them, too. You think that somehow, in this edition of mechanized units, that lists I make would lack in anti-tank? I'll lose a few vehicles and squads in the attempt, sure, but far less so than I would if you didn't focus so much of your points into a single unit.

In my experience, deathstar armies are easy to counter. The fewer the units the enemy has in total, the worse the army list usually is.

Melissia wrote:So what? I'll pop them, too. You think that somehow, in this edition of mechanized units, that lists I make would lack in anti-tank? I'll lose a few vehicles and squads in the attempt, sure, but far less so than I would if you didn't focus so much of your points into a single unit.

You'll pop all of my mechanized units while I will leave yours utterly untouched. Got it.

Incidentally, it's not a single unit. Either way, the real focus of the assault capability in the list is the usual Shrike gimmick of infiltrating an insane CC unit and going for the first-turn charge. Would you rather have an Assault Squad or TH/SS Terminators bowling into their target of choice during the first turn of the game?

And that's my whole point. Anything an Assault Squad can do, Assault Terminators can do better, with the sole exception of jumping around the board. Which, in the scheme of things, isn't a huge asset. Unless you're playing with an insane amount of cover, two squads of them aren't going to have the saves a lot of the time, and they'll die to even mediocre shooting. Emperor help them if the other guy brought plasma. Do Assault Terminators need transport? Absolutely. Their box isn't exactly a Rhino, though, and can be difficult to bring down, all the while punching out a lot of damage on its own. And in a 2000 point list, really, bring two of them. I know, I know; you'll pop two Land Raiders and two Vindicators all before they have a chance to do anything, and I'll have finally seen the light and realize that two whole squads of mediocre CC specialists that will die in droves to any sort of dedicated shooting OR dedicated melee would have won me the game.

Seaward wrote:You'll pop all of my mechanized units while I will leave yours utterly untouched.

Strawman fallacy 1, Reading Comprehension 0.

I never said that.

SaintHazard wrote:You only need 15 if all they're doing is sitting on objectives.

The Assault Marines, Terminators, and Sternguard will be doing the legwork. That's the whole point of the list.

You didn't take any Sternguard. I assume you meant the Dreads.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:You only need 15 if all they're doing is sitting on objectives.

The Assault Marines, Terminators, and Sternguard will be doing the legwork. That's the whole point of the list.

You didn't take any Sternguard. I assume you meant the Dreads.

Derp.

I had Sternguard, I swapped them for the Dreads.

Yes. Take my meaning to be the Dreads.

SaintHazard wrote:
Derp.

I had Sternguard, I swapped them for the Dreads.

Yes. Take my meaning to be the Dreads.

Do you have the BA or SW codices, out of curiosity? I think you might be missing my overarching point if not, which is, namely, that as far as an assault-focused list goes, BA and SW will do it far, far better than vanilla could ever hope.

OP:

Vanilla Marines are the Thinking Man's army.

If you can kick ass with them, as I do, you are truly a Moon Master.

Seriously though, the versatility offered by the Codex Space Marines is wonderful. I couldn't recommend them more highly.

Monster Rain wrote:OP:

Vanilla Marines are the Thinking Man's army.

If you can kick ass with them, as I do, you are truly a Moon Master.

Seriously though, the versatility offered by the Codex Space Marines is wonderful. I couldn't recommend them more highly.

Seconded.

Monster Rain wrote:OP:

Vanilla Marines are the Thinking Man's army.

If you can kick ass with them, as I do, you are truly a Moon Master.

Seriously though, the versatility offered by the Codex Space Marines is wonderful. I couldn't recommend them more highly.

It's not even really that I have a problem with the vanilla codex, it's that I like to specialize; you can specialize shooty, but you can't specialize assaulty. Specializing assaulty is what I'd like to do. So I should just go with the BA codex, right? I really should, but I just can't get on board with space vampires.

Seaward wrote:Do you have the BA or SW codices, out of curiosity? I think you might be missing my overarching point if not, which is, namely, that as far as an assault-focused list goes, BA and SW will do it far, far better than vanilla could ever hope.

I have at least one copy of each codex, in some format or another.

And I never said that BA and SW were worse than Vanilla in regards to assault or even that Vanilla was as good as them - in fact, I said something almost the exact opposite earlier in this very thread.

But I will go to lengths to avoid playing Edward and Jacob marines. Even if it means making a slightly less competitive (although I hate that word) assault-based list from the Vanilla codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On top of that, I was simply advocating the idea of a Shrike list in response to your request for Assault-based Marine lists, and here we are somehow arguing about it, and I'm getting all manner of vitriolic comments aimed at me, and snide sarcastic insults from Nurglitch, and all I can think is, "And I was only trying to help the guy."

I guess that was a mistake.

To me, specialized is another word for predictable.

People know what to expect with the other SM codexes. Playing Vanilla means you can always be ready for anything. A good mix of shooty and assaulty is what SM offer, and that's what you need in an All-comers list.

SaintHazard:

I think it's the way you put forward advice while have the kind of grasp of the rules that would usually embarass someone. You've mis-counted attacks at least twice, forgot that Orks have Furious Charge, and mistaken Sternguard for Dreadnoughts. If the last was your only mistake, it could be passed off as a typo. Given that it was the latest in a string of rule mistakes, you're going to have to accept that it's going to reflect badly on the advice you're attempting to give.

SaintHazard wrote:

Seaward wrote:Do you have the BA or SW codices, out of curiosity? I think you might be missing my overarching point if not, which is, namely, that as far as an assault-focused list goes, BA and SW will do it far, far better than vanilla could ever hope.

I have at least one copy of each codex, in some format or another.

And I never said that BA and SW were worse than Vanilla in regards to assault or even that Vanilla was as good as them - in fact, I said something almost the exact opposite earlier in this very thread.

But I will go to lengths to avoid playing Edward and Jacob marines. Even if it means making a slightly less competitive (although I hate that word) assault-based list from the Vanilla codex.

I think the issue is that it's not slightly less competitive, it's quite a bit less competitive. Vanilla simply doesn't do assault well enough to compete with actual assault-focused codices. I mean, the answer to your list that springs immediately to mind is simply to virtually duplicate it under BA rules and watch it clean house against the vanilla version.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:SaintHazard:

I think it's the way you put forward advice while have the kind of grasp of the rules that would usually embarass someone. You've mis-counted attacks at least twice, forgot that Orks have Furious Charge, and mistaken Sternguard for Dreadnoughts. If the last was your only mistake, it could be passed off as a typo. Given that it was the latest in a string of rule mistakes, you're going to have to accept that it's going to reflect badly on the advice you're attempting to give.

That's a little harsh, don't you think?

Yes. Vanilla marines have 3 units that are good in assault; command squad, assault terminators, vanguard. vanguard are overpriced. command squad and assault terminators are good but they do not an assault army make. It's not that they're a little less competitive. It's that theyre dog meat in assault against any really assault oriented force.

Even your average joe blood angel is a rampaging psychopath with mad attacks and high str and init, who ignores anything lighter than a plasmagun. smurf assaulters have no chance at all. Even berserkers would break out into a cold sweat when they saw those guys, had not the fear centers of their brains been surgically removed.
AF

1) Stay civil

2) Avoid 'Protips' or observations like "Reading Comprehension 0", etc.

3) WTF is up with people thinking that illegally obtaining stuff is 'cool'?

Seriously guys - be careful here.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Yes. Vanilla marines have 3 units that are good in assault; command squad, assault terminators, vanguard. vanguard are overpriced. command squad and assault terminators are good but they do not an assault army make. It's not that they're a little less competitive. It's that theyre dog meat in assault against any really assault oriented force.

Even your average joe blood angel is a rampaging psychopath with mad attacks and high str and init, who ignores anything lighter than a plasmagun. smurf assaulters have no chance at all. Even berserkers would break out into a cold sweat when they saw those guys, had not the fear centers of their brains been surgically removed.
AF

Assault Terminators are awesome in assault, and cost less in the Vanilla Codex.

Codex Terminators don't have the advantage of benefitting from Feel No Pain or Furious Charge. I prefer regular Terminators myself, but I like the part where you can do something if you can't charge.

The dark horse candidate Space Wolves just won out. Everybody comes to the party with Counter-attack, you can throw Eternal Warrior on HQ units, Berserk Charge on the Assault Marines...

Little too good to be true. I'd feel like a munchkin if I didn't know that by the time I actually get around to purchasing and painting the list, three new codices will have been introduced and power creep will favor them.

Actually the neat thing about Space Marine lists is that they don't have to be used as just one thing. A little cleverness in the planning stage will give you an army that you can use with several army lists.

Monster
they are indeed awesome in assault.... Blood Angels get them too (for a little bit more) and so do Space Wolves (for alot more true, but they have the mighty thunderwolves)

Its not that Im being down on codex assault terminators.... other armies just get the same stuff or better. Blood Angels in particular. Your average Blood Angel trooper is just a crazy good buy w/sanguinary priest.
AF

Yeah, it's a pity Codex: Space Marines is the book with the guy that can snipe specialists.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:disagree.
The Blood Angels probably won't lose an assault if they charge, but lets say they do....
And lets say they have red thirst, which has only a 1 in 6 chance...
then in that case they take 3+ saves, which gives them a 66% chance to live...
and if you have your priest around, which you really should, they'll save half of the 33% that get through, giving them about an 82% cance of living...

The odds of taking no retreat wounds from red thirst are just so small they're not even worth talking about. If you want to reform and counter attack them then I agree that will help but remember it only works if you *lost* the combat which is hardly a good starting point, and only if you lost it in their turn so that you can charge them in the next assault phase, and also since you lost the combat so you'll be hitting with a reduced squad. If you add in combat squads like you were saying you'll be hitting with I guess 3 marines? Hardly game changing.
AF

and you can use Feel no pain on the wounds if you lose the combat. make sure you have sang priests, go BA they are great for assault units, and the Stormraven is DROOL! (moving 24" and shooting a twin linked multi melta at your target is win)

Nurglitch wrote:SaintHazard:

I think it's the way you put forward advice while have the kind of grasp of the rules that would usually embarass someone. You've mis-counted attacks at least twice, forgot that Orks have Furious Charge, and mistaken Sternguard for Dreadnoughts. If the last was your only mistake, it could be passed off as a typo. Given that it was the latest in a string of rule mistakes, you're going to have to accept that it's going to reflect badly on the advice you're attempting to give.

Listen, when someone asks me to come up with an impromptu statistic table on the fly more than once, I'm going to eventually make a mistake. I miscounted attacks ONCE, and corrected it immediately once I realized the mistake.

When someone asks me to come up with a list in ten minutes or less, and I swap Sternguard for Dreadnoughts during the process of coming up with that list, I may make a slip of the tongue and say "Sternguard" instead of "Dreadnoughts." I didn't "mistake Sternguard for Dreadnoughts." I'm having trouble understand how you interpret it that way AFTER I explained the origin of the mistake.

And I never forgot that Orks have Furious Charge. Boyz are S4 on the charge, he was right, and that was a mistake on my part, but again, a minor fething detail that anyone could get wrong once in their life.

So don't be so quick to judge someone else when you're not even BOTHERING to contribute to this conversation.

I've been helpful.

You've been a complete jackass, and nothing more.

inb4 Alpharius edits this post.

Hmm... good times.

If we could refrain from calling each other names and making digs at their intelligence level, even when discussing the SUPER IMPORTANCENESS that, clearly, small models of soldiers, aliens and the like fighting in a grim, dark and surprisingly sexless dystopia, the likes of which even Fox News has not imagined, that'd, you know, be super and not involve the mean and nasty MODS slinging your asses out of here and then drinking even more heavily than usual.

Please, for the sake of the forum, think,m think carefully before posting. Our livers might not make it.