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Matthias wrote:Pre-submission is at best an illusion. It does not stop the determined and severely limits people's ability to playtest and tweak lists. It also puts a strain on painting in terms of finishing or not finishing certain units. How many people paint right up to the night before? How many people change list the night before?

everything is an illusion. having rules judges is an illusion as their knowledge is not perfect (so they may be swayed by an incorrect argument) and the opposing player may fall for the cheater's forked tongue and not call them in the first place. nothing stops the determined but having a months to paytest and tweak lists is enough, lol; no one is forced to take the brand-spankin' newest codex to the tourney. if anything, having a cutoff time before the tourney set in stone will help the indecisive list builders because they won't have the choice to flip flop their builds the night before and can actually focus on getting the finishing touches done. either way, any of the solutions above would help in some way despite being illusions.

one other thing i'd suggest is that if a player or judge catches a problem with an illegal upgrade in their opponent's list, the WHOLE UNIT is gone for the entire tourney. if their list is over the alloted points, the judge takes off the highest point non-core unit (so that you don't lose the two troops and an HQ mandatory selection) off the list for the whole tourney. DQ'ing people penalizes the stupid/inept too much and gives the opponent for that round an easy win that they don't necessarily deserve. if the person making the mistake just loses a unit, they still have a chance at winning (important if it was an honest mistake) but are still penalized severely (important for the willful cheaters). its the best of both worlds regarding punishments! p.s. as a side note, record who this happens to and put them on a grey list for future tourneys (a list of people whose armies MUST be double checked).


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edit: oh, and yeah, having the winner of the nova open field an illegal list is definitely embarassing. i'd say start validating anyone in the semifinals to avoid that kind of stuff. that way you catch it before they get to a prize.

@warboss - The imposed penalty you and MVB suggested is a solid one for sure. Defiantly under consideration.

I like that penalty.

I would propose that you have an army builder station set up on Sunday for the finalists.

That way they can sit down, go over their list one more time, and print it out. Have a judge watch the proceedings, so you make sure that at least those lists are the accurate ones. Those are the ones that really matter anyways, you remove the possibility of TO error in the transcribing anothers list, and you ensure everything is on the level.

3 Laptops set up and you can have that done in an hour.

Better yet - the top players should have their lists verified manually Friday night during round 4. This issue should be handled Friday night, either before qualifiers are announced or shortly after the event wraps up.

Matthias wrote:Better yet - the top players should have their lists verified manually Friday night during round 4. This issue should be handled Friday night, either before qualifiers are announced or shortly after the event wraps up.

I would hope this would go without saying.

Or better yet, just do it sunday morning at the start of all the games.

Or both.

For sure - without question - I was just saying Friday night better than Sunday morning...look at the schedule .

Knowing lists are legal before even announcing qualifiers on Friday is best case scenario.

In this day and age, I'd say it's possible to have final list printing done on site. I will say I haven't completely thought through the logistics required for this, and it may be completely useless, but I'll throw it out anyway. It combines many ideas already posted in this thread. At registration you're required to bring a flash drive/disk/CD, something with your lists(in AB format) for every event you're playing in on it. These are printed then and there on special colored paper(Someone on the staff has access to a laserjet or something similar right?), and then filed for you until you check in for the actual event (this requires several file boxes with folders for each player in an event). When you arrive to play in the event, the organizer hands you your copies of your list and these are the ONLY copies you should be using. Your opponent should get a copy and can confirm your army to your list every game. Judges can still spot check.

Army builder validates lists, if it's illegal, over points, etc. For people that don't have access to the program? They can find someone with it before arriving, or go stand in a queue for event provided Army Builder stations. People's time on these stations should be LIMITED to ensure a quick moving queue. They shouldn't be thinking about their list, only inputting it.

It comes with an added cost, but I would bet you can find a way to cover it.

derek wrote:In this day and age, I'd say it's possible to have final list printing done on site. I will say I haven't completely thought through the logistics required for this, and it may be completely useless, but I'll throw it out anyway. It combines many ideas already posted in this thread. At registration you're required to bring a flash drive/disk/CD, something with your lists(in AB format) for every event you're playing in on it. These are printed then and there on special colored paper(Someone on the staff has access to a laserjet or something similar right?), and then filed for you until you check in for the actual event (this requires several file boxes with folders for each player in an event). When you arrive to play in the event, the organizer hands you your copies of your list and these are the ONLY copies you should be using. Your opponent should get a copy and can confirm your army to your list every game. Judges can still spot check.

Scaling issues here - assuming the 40k Championships doesn't get any bigger than last year, you're looking at 220 people. Each of them will need 6 copies of their lists; most lists are 2-3 pages. So now we're talking about a print run that involves 4000 pages, collated. Assuming a decent printer (10 ppm), that's 400 minutes (and a replacement toner cartridge). So now we're looking for at least 10 printers to bring time down to reasonable; ouch.

(Never mind the time involved in opening 220 AB files & print them; that, of course, assumes that they open - if your AB files at home are a different release than those at the event, your list may not open properly, so the TOs will have to find you & have you recreate your list.)

I think it all boils down to solid controls at the event - like I outlined above. Marked lists to ensure no list swapping between rounds/types of opponents. Numerous spot checks both on turned in lists and on the floor. Definitive and harsh penalties for illegal lists and/or willful cheating. Re-checking lists prior to the finals and/or awards. Add to this the eyes of the opponent, and I think you have a very manageable system that does not require a large amount of generally wasted effort.

I really think that’s all you need to do. I would however let the people know what you’re going to do if they’re caught doing the old" switch arue."

Seems like a way to try and degrade team blower lists, and boost NIDS.

Kinda like the INAT you guys made which made your NIDS viable again.

Oh snap! I dont like limiting Force Orgs.

Task and Purpose wrote:Seems like a way to try and degrade team blower lists, and boost NIDS.

Kinda like the INAT you guys made which made your NIDS viable again.

Oh snap! I dont like limiting Force Orgs.

What? How does this fit into the conversation? What are you even talking about?

Janthkin wrote:

derek wrote:In this day and age, I'd say it's possible to have final list printing done on site. I will say I haven't completely thought through the logistics required for this, and it may be completely useless, but I'll throw it out anyway. It combines many ideas already posted in this thread. At registration you're required to bring a flash drive/disk/CD, something with your lists(in AB format) for every event you're playing in on it. These are printed then and there on special colored paper(Someone on the staff has access to a laserjet or something similar right?), and then filed for you until you check in for the actual event (this requires several file boxes with folders for each player in an event). When you arrive to play in the event, the organizer hands you your copies of your list and these are the ONLY copies you should be using. Your opponent should get a copy and can confirm your army to your list every game. Judges can still spot check.

Scaling issues here - assuming the 40k Championships doesn't get any bigger than last year, you're looking at 220 people. Each of them will need 6 copies of their lists; most lists are 2-3 pages. So now we're talking about a print run that involves 4000 pages, collated. Assuming a decent printer (10 ppm), that's 400 minutes (and a replacement toner cartridge). So now we're looking for at least 10 printers to bring time down to reasonable; ouch.

(Never mind the time involved in opening 220 AB files & print them; that, of course, assumes that they open - if your AB files at home are a different release than those at the event, your list may not open properly, so the TOs will have to find you & have you recreate your list.)

Like I said, I didn't think through the logistics. One thing I did assume was having a couple of printers capable of doing 25-30 ppm, and it being something done right as people check in so that they're there if there is a problem. May not be feasible, but it was only a suggestion.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Task and Purpose wrote:Seems like a way to try and degrade team blower lists, and boost NIDS.

Kinda like the INAT you guys made which made your NIDS viable again.

Oh snap! I dont like limiting Force Orgs.

What? How does this fit into the conversation? What are you even talking about?

I thought the rules development was here to develop the rules for the upcoming Adepticon? As far as verifying lists, it seems like this added work is the self inflicted wound resulting from changing the force orgs per teams.

The Adepticon "guys" play Nids and well there werent any changes like this in the Zilla days. Its just interesting to see Adeptioncon, via the old INAT, making Nids Relevant. IMO seems like the Tau need more help and well the force ORG changes dont really help them. There is also a lot of preference on theme and fluff for team but unless you play Chaos or Imperial then your team/alliance for fluff points is pretty restricted. That isnt addressed because the Adepticon Nid guys bring homogeneous lists.

The talk concerning list verification concerns the 40K Championships, but you keep talking about the Team Tournament force org...not sure what thread you are reading.

The only Tyranids I own are 6mm.

Sounds like opportunity for a company to provide a solution.

Online interface that folks can type in lists and also validate them.

Barcode functionality built into the army list printouts for onsite scanning purposes.

Task and Purpose wrote:The Adepticon "guys" play Nids and well there werent any changes like this in the Zilla days. Its just interesting to see Adeptioncon, via the old INAT, making Nids Relevant. IMO seems like the Tau need more help and well the force ORG changes dont really help them. There is also a lot of preference on theme and fluff for team but unless you play Chaos or Imperial then your team/alliance for fluff points is pretty restricted. That isnt addressed because the Adepticon Nid guys bring homogeneous lists.

Ummm...what? First, the INAT was harsh on the 'Nids during Adepticon 2010 (e.g., Tyrants had to be on the board to use their bonus to Reserves rolls); and second, who are these "Adeptioncon" guys who play 'Nids? None of the judges for the team tournament play in the team tournament, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them were using 'Nids for any of the other events that weekend. (And I don't recall any Tyranid teams anywhere near the top of the heap.)

Yes, getting theme points is harder with Xenos teams than with Imperial or Heretical teams. That's mostly because GW's setting doesn't provide for as much background along those lines.

The only additional "Alliance/Theme" or whatever that I would envision would be a Tau/Gue'la detachment, but that may be stretching a little bit.

Eldar/Dark Eldar may be a potential Theme/Alliance depending on how the fluff goes when the new codex comes out, but we won't know until it does.

If you're Xenos, you're stuck playing Xenos, which is bad how? The "Brothers in Arms" rule is very powerful for single codex Xenos teams just as much as it is for any others.

Matthias wrote:The talk concerning list verification concerns the 40K Championships, but you keep talking about the Team Tournament force org...not sure what thread you are reading.

The only Tyranids I own are 6mm.

Edit: the PRE GW INAT was completely pro NID...Besides that generally good lists want to start on the table to maximize its ability to aquire kill points. (Yes Im aware of pods)

The thread requested comments for all feedback, specifically clarity. The thread had devolved into; how do I read and do math quickly? I saw more things needing attention.

I figure verification issues for all the tournaments, especially for team since you effectively checking 4x the lists. Random checks is all you can do with a small staff.

Here is how I would fix the issue: Adeptioncon draws a quality crowd for sure and has the best organizing of any event out...I would suggest passing you lists to the team to the left and then have that team screen your codex vs lists prior to set up game one. There is always a good PA so verbally walking the crowd through each force org should be easy, moving through each force ORG chioce at a time and not moving on until the "show of hands" says everyone is done. IIRC there is always a pre game 1hr check in in the mornings, do it then. The Codexs support this, and the Adepticon judges can simply roam the floor addressing issues. You could effectively check everything in 15-20mins tops. Then have a Adepticon hole puch to punch the approved lists for the day.


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whitedragon wrote: The "Brothers in Arms" rule is very powerful for single codex Xenos teams just as much as it is for any others.

In your opinion.

I think it breaks some things. I think Brothers in Arms provides AMAZING synergy for Imperial and Chaos across multiple books. IMO mostly increasing mobiliity without transports to reduce the strength of MECH guard.

NIDS? Bonus synapse and Venomthrope Cover, bonus to reserves rolls?
Orks? Maybe Mechboys fixing other vehicles? and 4x Waaaghs and the number of force fields.

What do Eldar get? Extra fearless for having more Avatars? Meh?
Tau?
DE?

Like I said the "Brothers in Arms" is nothing more than a way to reduce team blower lists.

Task and Purpose wrote:
Edit: the PRE GW INAT was completely pro NID...Besides that generally good lists want to start on the table to maximize its ability to aquire kill points. (Yes Im aware of pods)

I would leave this thread to discussions on A-Con and the events themselves. What we who are on the INAT team do has nothing to do with what those who setup and run A-Con. Even more so those who make up the rules for the Champs, Team Tournament, and Gladiator etc are not the same as all of us on the INAT. Matter of fact in reguard to myself specifically, the recent posting of the draft rules for the Champs and TT on Adepticons site are the first I even knew of them.

If you want to discuss your feelings on the INAT (beyond its use at A-Con but rather the document and how it comes about), there are several threads on Dakka already about that topic. Or, you could start another one and for my part would be happy to give my feelings on the issues you speak of. Though I am but a single member and do not represent the feelings of the group as a whole.

Wow thast was about 1/10 of what I spoke about. Certainly not the focus of what Im saying.

Task and Purpose wrote:Wow thast was about 1/10 of what I spoke about. Certainly not the focus of what Im saying.

Since that 1/10 is the only part of what you talked about that I am a part of, its the only part that I can reply to.

As I said in my post, I am not invovled in the forming of rules in any of the other days many events.

Why not have them submit a .AB file from army builder. Load it, it tells you if there's a problem. Move on. Should make any validation check easier. It also catches people who have hacked the AB files on their computers to adjust points/allow a couple extra combos.

12th Ronin - Main issue is then your requiring people to own AB software to submit a list.

muwhe wrote:12th Ronin - Main issue is then your requiring people to own AB software to submit a list.

AND that everyone be using exactly the same version the AB files; I loaded the newest files today, and the list I made last night doesn't load anymore.

So I see this years adepticon is starting on the 1st of april.

rrrrr, why do you hate us accountants matthias?

Not everything is Matt's fault. : )

Dates are set fall between middle of March to middle of April.

Within reason we need avoid Easter, the time change weekend and Gamma Trade Show. The later you push into April the more likely you will run into conflicts with weddings and other catered events with most venues in Chicago.

Course I work for an accounting/consulting firm as well so I know full well tax season. : (

Hehe, I know.

Us corporate accountants usually have a lot of work on the last and first day of every month. Which make getting them off practically impossible.

For some reason I can't open the rules packets. :(

Links are opening fine for me.

Hank