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Frazzled, I am not defending Hamas. You are making gak up, and it's just pathetic. Basically you're defending Israeli policy that says certain people are not deserving of basic human rights, simply because their mother was not a Jew. It's stupid. It's no less ridiculous than fundamental Islamic law, except that in Israel it is actual law rather than religious suggestion.
Hamas are a murderous religious sect in many respects, but to tie them in with the Palestinian people as a whole is wholly ignorant, without exception.

Kanlu, again, you're just ignoring or ignorant of facts. Call me a munchkin again, 'bud'. They are not all Islamic - the 'Bank is full of Christians in the exact same situation. You have no understanding of what I'm trying to say and you are not attempting to understand because you are clearly of a pig-headed mindset. Prove me wrong if you can. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:You are completely wrong. Israel never stopped breaking the most foundational terms of the Palestinian side's peace 'agreement' which was to cease the expansion of settlements.

Read up some history. It's interesting that the Palestinians apparently can't afford food and proper waste management, but always seem to have some rockets ready to randomly shoot into nearby areas

I don't care about settlements as it pertains to 'peace'. It may not be legal but it's not like Israel's dropping bombs when they expand their settlements and causing massive amounts of collateral damage in the process. There's only been one immediate instigator of violence in my life time, and it's been the same group every time. It's hard to get Israel to do what you want when you keep blowing their stuff up. Israel over the past few decades has a built a mentality of not caring, because they're constantly expecting the other side to instigate some form of armed violence. It's hard to expect Israel to lighten up and chillax when they're constantly wary someone's about to start shooting rockets at them.

If you want peace in the region it's not Israel that needs to take the first step. We need to get Palestinians some actual leadership that cares about peace rather than one that only agrees to cease-fires to get time till they can build and shoot another rocket. Stop the violence and getting Israel to be more reasonable is a lot easier, but as it is one group has perpetuated armed conflict in the region since the 30's.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I didn't say that one side is right or wrong, and if you got that impression you're either blind yourself or skimming.

Really? Let's review some samples from your earlier comments:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:News Corp is dominated by Jewish interests. There is no lack of bias here - The Australian is as right-wing as it gets.

Gobbels used to go on about Jewish controlled media, also.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The Palestinians only want justice, and some will go to any lengths to get it.
The Israeli nationalists only want to keep their stolen goods, and some will go to any lengths to retain them. Considering that the majority of new settlers over the past few decades have been US Jews, they have a lot of political leverage.

So the Palistinians only want justice and the Israeli Nationalists only want stolen land? How is this statement not branding one side totaly right and the other totaly wrong?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Frazzled, I am not defending Hamas. You are making gak up, and it's just pathetic. Basically you're defending Israeli policy that says certain people are not deserving of basic human rights, simply because their mother was not a Jew. It's stupid. It's no less ridiculous than fundamental Islamic law, except that in Israel it is actual law rather than religious suggestion.
Hamas are a murderous religious sect in many respects, but to tie them in with the Palestinian people as a whole is wholly ignorant, without exception.

Hamas got voted into government. They are, effectively, what the Palestinian voted to have as their representatives. So....yeah.

Kanlu, again, you're just ignoring or ignorant of facts. Call me a munchkin again, 'bud'. They are not all Islamic - the 'Bank is full of Christians in the exact same situation. You have no understanding of what I'm trying to say and you are not attempting to understand because you are clearly of a pig-headed mindset. Prove me wrong if you can. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

Find me a Palestinian Christian suicide-bomber and I'll agree with you that the Christians are in the exact same situation, munchkin.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Frazzled, I am not defending Hamas. You are making gak up, and it's just pathetic. Basically you're defending Israeli policy that says certain people are not deserving of basic human rights, simply because their mother was not a Jew. It's stupid. It's no less ridiculous than fundamental Islamic law, except that in Israel it is actual law rather than religious suggestion.
Hamas are a murderous religious sect in many respects, but to tie them in with the Palestinian people as a whole is wholly ignorant, without exception.

Kanlu, again, you're just ignoring or ignorant of facts. Call me a munchkin again, 'bud'. They are not all Islamic - the 'Bank is full of Christians in the exact same situation. You have no understanding of what I'm trying to say and you are not attempting to understand because you are clearly of a pig-headed mindset. Prove me wrong if you can. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

So tell me, what exactly would peace look like in a world AF envisions?
Please be specific though. Who is in charge, where? If you mention land, define what land you're talking about.

Israelis kill 50 times as many Palestinians as Palestinians kill israelis. I don't really care, Israel should never have existed and Palestine should have been liberated along with Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel is a lang grabbing hyperconservative pile of murderous jingoists and palestine is a sparsely populated desert country full of jobless and starving idiots that really hate israel. Both sides are about as fethed up as you can get without being a korea. I don't understand the presidential obsession with solving the crisis there while not actually doing anything. It would be easy to fix, just stop giving israel aid and weapons and enforce no settlement zones militarily. What is Israel gonna do? Shoot back at us? Most of africa deserves our attention more then the spoiled and stupid that can't stop fighting in the mideast.

ShumaGorath wrote:Israelis kill 50 times as many Palestinians are Palestinians kill israelis. I don't really care, Israel should never have existed and Palestine should have been liberated along with Iraq and Afghanistan.

1. No proof for your statement.
2. Assuming your statement is correct that just means the Israelis are better at it. US kill rates to casualties are pretty good too.
3. And the same question to you. Palestine liberated from whom? Who's in charge?

I agree with you LordOfHats, for the most part. You should care about people being forced from their homes, because those acts are as aggressive as outright attacks. There is no fething around on that point.

Israel has launched its own attacks. This year, the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was a targetted attack by Israeli intelligence, in which they utilised stolen Australian and other passports to commit an act of war in another country. At least a rocket is honest and to the point - it's a disgusting metaphor but that's just the difference between the two ideologies. The attacks from both sides need to stop, and that includes cultural persecution.

Hamas needs to feth off and die, but Hamas itself is the result of provocation. Now we have third party intervention (again). Pray for the peace talks. Let's just hope, eh?

Frazzled - ideally, there would be peace, and people wouldn't drive other people out of their homes. It's as simple as that. I don't want to see any more of my or their people die. Palestinians deserve basic human rights, and good government that exists for the reason governments are supposed to exist - to preserve basic rights in regional contexts.
People killing other people in other countries may not matter to you in your country, but that's just your country, where plenty of your own people kill your own people anyway. I'm not judging you.
I'm lucky I live in the lucky country.

I'm leaving this thread.

Palestinians should be free in their own country. It's nothing to do with me when it comes down to it, but for the people I love who are involved on both sides.

1. No proof for your statement.

Israeli politicians ultimately decided against striking deeper within Gaza amidst concerns of higher casualties on both sides and increasing international criticism. The war ended on January 18, when Israel first declared a unilateral ceasefire, followed by Hamas' announcing a one-week ceasefire twelve hours later.[4][5] Israel completed its withdrawal on January 21.[51] The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths.[52]

27 Israelis have been killed in rocket attacks in the last 10 years. You really have to try harder Fraz, your zionist obsession is pretty striking sometimes. Do you live there? Or do you just hate the brownies so much that you can't even count. 27 vs 1.1-1.4 thousand. Hell, israel has killed more Palestinian CHILDREN than israelis have ever been killed. It's sickening.

2. Assuming your statement is correct that just means the Israelis are better at it. US kill rates to casualties are pretty good too.

So.... They are better at unlawful civilian killings? Good to know you support the concept.

3. And the same question to you. Palestine liberated from whom? Who's in charge?

Hamas. Hamas exists purely because Israel occupies Palestinian land and kills a hell of a lot of Palestinians. They are a resistance group that very legitimately is resisting a violent occupying power. They do it largely through dumbfire rockets and mortars, but hey, they aren't the ones being given fething stealth jets by the premiere military power on the planet. With a removal of israeli settlements Palestinian governance would split along the militarists and the legitimate branch of HAMAS (which does exist) and the legitimate branch would drive the militant one underground where after probably a decade it would splinter and fall apart. Agression against Israel is predicated on the fact that they are jingoistic and greedy occupiers, which is true. They are grabbing land as fast as they can, they indiscriminately bomb targets on even a whisper of hamas activity, and they are actively occupying and settling in another sovereign country against the wishes of every other country on the planet.

They are both bad guys, Israel is just the bad guy with all the guns that is winning and killing the other guys family. None of these is even mentioning the gaza blockades which are an entirely different and disgusting animal.

I noticed you didn’t answer the question, AT ALL.

So lets get even clearer.
1. Gaza-who’s in charge?
2. Palestine-who’s in charge?
3. Israel-who’s in charge?

If Netanyahu came out this afternoon and said: ok. We’re going to freeze at current borders.

West Bank-you’re your own country. Do what you want, join with Jordan (Jordan wouldn’t take them hint) if you want. You’re a complete separate country. But if we get one attack we’ll firebomb you Tokyo style.

Gaza--you’re your own country. Do what you want, join with Egypt (Egypt wouldn’t take them hint) if you want. You’re a complete separate country. But if we get one attack we’ll firebomb you Tokyo style.

Would that work for you?
In case you’re wondering yes this is a trap.

Edit: I see Shuma also didn't answer the question of what would peace look like in Shumagardens.

Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

Relapse wrote:Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

Syria wiped out a city once. Razed it to the ground Imperium style.

Edit: I see Shuma also didn't answer the question of what would peace look like in Shumagardens.

Yes I did, you just can't read. I stated that Hamas should run Palestine. That includes Gaza since thats Palestinian land. Israel can run israel, it's got a functioning though murkey democracy going.

Relapse wrote:Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

No one is talking about it because it's irrelevant. They aren't doing it now and we don't have time machines. Americans killed hundreds of thousands (to possibly millions) of japanese through the use of firebombing, nukes, and good old fashioned bullets. We're all chummy now. Hell, russia killed over a million afghans and you don't see anyone bringing them up when we talk about afghanny election fraud.

It's a big number, but it happened forty years ago. Obama isn't a timelord.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Edit: I see Shuma also didn't answer the question of what would peace look like in Shumagardens.

Yes I did, you just can't read. I stated that Hamas should run Palestine. That includes Gaza since thats Palestinian land. Israel can run israel, it's got a functioning though murkey democracy going.

Relapse wrote:Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

No one is talking about it because it's irrelevant. They aren't doing it now and we don't have time machines. Americans killed hundreds of thousands (to possibly millions) of japanese through the use of firebombing, nukes, and good old fashioned bullets. We're all chummy now. Hell, russia killed over a million afghans and you don't see anyone bringing them up when we talk about afghanny election fraud.

It's a big number, but it happened forty years ago. Obama isn't a timelord.

What does that have to do with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli schools? How is that peace again?

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Edit: I see Shuma also didn't answer the question of what would peace look like in Shumagardens.

Yes I did, you just can't read. I stated that Hamas should run Palestine. That includes Gaza since thats Palestinian land. Israel can run israel, it's got a functioning though murkey democracy going.

Relapse wrote:Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

No one is talking about it because it's irrelevant. They aren't doing it now and we don't have time machines. Americans killed hundreds of thousands (to possibly millions) of japanese through the use of firebombing, nukes, and good old fashioned bullets. We're all chummy now. Hell, russia killed over a million afghans and you don't see anyone bringing them up when we talk about afghanny election fraud.

It's a big number, but it happened forty years ago. Obama isn't a timelord.

What does that have to do with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli schools? How is that peace again?

About as much as it has to do with the killing of Hamas and Palestinian civilians by israeli soldiers while they forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes under gunpoint and bulldoze their houses. What exactly are you arguing here? Neither side wants peace. Thats my entire point. Israel wants Palestine, it doesn't want PEACE with Palestine. Hamas wants Israel gone. You are choosing to support the direct murder and relocation of a native peoples vs the violent terrorist resistance to that act. I'm stating that I don't really care anymore I just want to stop giving military hardware and aid to one of the sides. I would prefer to bomb both sides every time they have a military interaction with eachother, but then thats more of a fantasy.

LordofHats wrote:There's only been one immediate instigator of violence in my life time, and it's been the same group every time.

If you were alive in '95, then that's a false statement.

LordofHats wrote:
If you want peace in the region it's not Israel that needs to take the first step. We need to get Palestinians some actual leadership that cares about peace rather than one that only agrees to cease-fires to get time till they can build and shoot another rocket.

We had that once, and then a Jewish extremist shot Yitzhak Rabian; causing the peace process to fall apart.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Edit: I see Shuma also didn't answer the question of what would peace look like in Shumagardens.

Yes I did, you just can't read. I stated that Hamas should run Palestine. That includes Gaza since thats Palestinian land. Israel can run israel, it's got a functioning though murkey democracy going.

Relapse wrote:Lots of talk about Israelis killing Palistinans.

It's interesting to note at this point the Jordanian killings of Palestinians that never seems to be talked of.

Read about Black September sometime. The Jordanians killed thousands of Palistinians in 1970.

No one is talking about it because it's irrelevant. They aren't doing it now and we don't have time machines. Americans killed hundreds of thousands (to possibly millions) of japanese through the use of firebombing, nukes, and good old fashioned bullets. We're all chummy now. Hell, russia killed over a million afghans and you don't see anyone bringing them up when we talk about afghanny election fraud.

It's a big number, but it happened forty years ago. Obama isn't a timelord.

What does that have to do with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli schools? How is that peace again?

About as much as it has to do with the killing of Hamas and Palestinian civilians by israeli soldiers while they forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes under gunpoint and bulldoze their houses. What exactly are you arguing here? Neither side wants peace. Thats my entire point. Israel wants Palestine, it doesn't want PEACE with Palestine. Hamas wants Israel gone. You are choosing to support the direct murder and relocation of a native peoples vs the violent terrorist resistance to that act. I'm stating that I don't really care anymore I just want to stop giving military hardware and aid to one of the sides. I would prefer to bomb both sides every time they have a military interaction with eachother, but then thats more of a fantasy.

Then why are you posting here?

The killings happened years ago, true, but Jordan is now stripping Arabs who happen to come from west of the Jordan River, of citizenship.
Doesn't seem like everything is all true love amongst the Arabs over Palistinians, does it? Israel would be jumped all over for this, but no one says squat when the Arabs do it. That's my whole point. Back in 1970 there were no major cries of outrage over the killings, but everyone jumped all over Israel for taking lands to buffer itself from attacks on it's citizens.

Then why are you posting here?

Says the man trolling his own thread.

Relapse wrote:The killings happened years ago, true, but Jordan is now stripping Arabs who happen to come from west of the Jordan River, of citizenship.
Doesn't seem like everything is all true love amongst the Arabs over Palistinians, does it? Israel would be jumped all over for this, but no one says squat when the Arabs do it.

Thats probably because we aren't giving as much money and weapons to Jordan and they aren't occupying a foreign country. They're much less overt and violent about it all, though you'll rarely find a true fan of the jordanians in american politics.

Thats, er, just nonsensical. What? Wait, I don't want to know.

Frazzled wrote:
1. No proof for your statement.

Its not a multiple of fifty, but there have been about 6000 Palestinian deaths since 1987, and about 1500 Israeli deaths. These figures are from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and B'Tselem.

I don't know if you were simply disputing Shuma's multiplication, or if you were disputing the idea that the Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis, but I can tell you right now that you're the first and only person I have ever heard try to claim the latter. Seriously, not even conservative Israeli politicians make that claim.

Frazzled wrote:
2. Assuming your statement is correct that just means the Israelis are better at it. US kill rates to casualties are pretty good too.

It depends on how the people were killed, and why. Killing people in the course of forcibly relocating them is very different from killing them in order to stop rocket attacks.

Frazzled wrote:
3. And the same question to you. Palestine liberated from whom? Who's in charge?

Israel controls almost all ingress and egress with respect to the Palestinian territories, so Israel is in charge. The Palestinians don't even have rights to their own airspace.

How many of those Palestinian deaths have been collateral damage from Hamas attacks?

Frazzled wrote:
Then why are you posting here?

Says the man whose sole entry into many threads has been "Who cares?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:How many of those Palestinian deaths have been collateral damage from Hamas attacks?

I actually factored that in by omitting 1500 suspect deaths.

dogma wrote:
Israel controls almost all ingress and egress with respect to the Palestinian territories, so Israel is in charge. The Palestinians don't even have rights to their own airspace.

Considering what terrorists do with planes, I wouldn't want to let them have airspace, either, in an area where you can get to key areas fairly quickly by plane.

Kanluwen wrote:How many of those Palestinian deaths have been collateral damage from Hamas attacks?

None of the thousands from my quote. Probably a few here and there, but nothing statistically meaningful or significant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

dogma wrote:
Israel controls almost all ingress and egress with respect to the Palestinian territories, so Israel is in charge. The Palestinians don't even have rights to their own airspace.

Considering what terrorists do with planes, I wouldn't want to let them have airspace, either, in an area where you can get to key areas fairly quickly by plane.

You know, the israelis drop bombs from their own planes onto palestinians. Should we enforce a no fly zone for both sides?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:How many of those Palestinian deaths have been collateral damage from Hamas attacks?

None of the thousands from my quote. Probably a few here and there, but nothing statistically meaningful or significant.

"1500" suspect deaths out of the 7500 Palestinian deaths since 1987 from the number that Dogma gave is actually kinda significant.

Frazzled wrote:
No they lived in Dhimmitude-servitude to Islam. The peace of the shackled slave.

You don't know much about the Ottoman Millets, do you?

Its interesting that the "Israel is evil crowd" have yet to note what a proper peace would look like.

Relapse wrote:
Considering what terrorists do with planes, I wouldn't want to let them have airspace, either, in an area where you can get to key areas fairly quickly by plane.

I'm simply questioning the idea that the Palestinians control their own territory. I could also cite the settlements in the West Bank as a parallel example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Its interesting that the "Israel is evil crowd" have yet to note what a proper peace would look like.

I find it fascinating that you're unwilling to give aid to Pakistan in order to prevent a nuclear state from destabilizing, but you are more than willing to take an active stance on Israel by equating 'Israel does abd things' with 'Israel is evil'.

Its almost as if you search for reasons to be offended, but that can't be, after all, every time someone takes umbrage at something that you find insignificant that's your default criticism.

dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Considering what terrorists do with planes, I wouldn't want to let them have airspace, either, in an area where you can get to key areas fairly quickly by plane.

I'm simply questioning the idea that the Palestinians control their own territory. I could also cite the settlements in the West Bank as a parallel example.

I can see questioning the West Bank settlements in a better light than the airspace.