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Kanluwen wrote:
"1500" suspect deaths out of the 7500 Palestinian deaths since 1987 from the number that Dogma gave is actually kinda significant.

I omitted most of the 1500 because their deaths were either explicitly attributed to attacks by Palestinians on Israeli forces. However, I also omitted some because their deaths took place in Israel, or in the course of border crossings; meaning that the cause of death cannot be reliably discerned. They could have been hit by Palestinian rockets, they could have been shot by Israelis in self-defense, they could have been shot by Israelis in cold blood, there are simply too many possibilities to reach a reliable conclusion.

Frazzled wrote:Its interesting that the "Israel is evil crowd" have yet to note what a proper peace would look like.

I don't think you can read the english language.

Frazzled wrote:
Do what you want, join with Jordan (Jordan wouldn’t take them hint) if you want.

Exclusive water rights to the Jordan River are an awfully tempting prize for a state that constantly engages in minor feuds with Israel over water rights, which is also at least one Reason that Israel is unlikely to accept such a deal. Note that nearly all two-state solution offered by Israel include a provisional strip of Israeli territory all along the Jordan River.

Frazzled wrote:
Would that work for you?
In case you’re wondering yes this is a trap.

It wouldn't work for Israel. I've already touched on water rights, but there's also the settlements, political pressure, and the military 'buffer' to consider. We also have to consider what becomes of the refugee population that inevitably follows from any mass military action in either Palestinian territory; which essentially just places us back in the same situation we have now.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its interesting that the "Israel is evil crowd" have yet to note what a proper peace would look like.

I don't think you can read the english language.

hugs and kisses to you too Shuma.

LordofHats wrote:Isn't news supposed to be news. Peace talks and someone wants to blow something up? Isn't that par for the course by now

I will point out to you Arctik that the past few cease-fires have all been broken by the same party: Hint. It's not Israel. Violence in the region is perpetuated by radical Palestinians who attack Israel, prompting increasingly heavy handed responses from Israel. I'm not going to accept them as victims when they're responsible for their own situation. Britain offered them their own country in 1949. They refused. Guess that hasn't worked out so well for them, huh?

Who assassinated the last Israeli prime minister who was involved in a peace process?

Hint: It was an Israeli Jew.

Kanluwen wrote:Except Israel was "property" of the Jewish people(who were then enslaved by the Egyptians and a large amount of the established Arabic nations) long before the Arabic tribes started settling permanently in the area that would be later marked as Palestine.

So, they're living on property they've stolen from people who've stolen it from them in their absence due to being enslaved and scattered to the four winds. Neat.

I'd like to know what source you're getting this info from. Or if you are mixing up Arab/Jewish states with Caanaites and other ancient civilisations.

Relapse wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:News Corp is dominated by Jewish interests. There is no lack of bias here - The Australian is as right-wing as it gets.

Gobbels used to go on about Jewish controlled media, also.

"Jewish-Controlled" is a big claim. But there is no denying the heavy bias in many of the Newspapers/Channels, even over here.

Kanluwen wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Frazzled, I am not defending Hamas. You are making gak up, and it's just pathetic. Basically you're defending Israeli policy that says certain people are not deserving of basic human rights, simply because their mother was not a Jew. It's stupid. It's no less ridiculous than fundamental Islamic law, except that in Israel it is actual law rather than religious suggestion.
Hamas are a murderous religious sect in many respects, but to tie them in with the Palestinian people as a whole is wholly ignorant, without exception.

Hamas got voted into government. They are, effectively, what the Palestinian voted to have as their representatives. So....yeah.

Kanlu, again, you're just ignoring or ignorant of facts. Call me a munchkin again, 'bud'. They are not all Islamic - the 'Bank is full of Christians in the exact same situation. You have no understanding of what I'm trying to say and you are not attempting to understand because you are clearly of a pig-headed mindset. Prove me wrong if you can. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?

Find me a Palestinian Christian suicide-bomber and I'll agree with you that the Christians are in the exact same situation, munchkin.

I've been to Israel. The rascism there against Palestinians is palable. I'm not trying to brand the majority of Isreali Jews as racist, but actions speak a lot louder than words.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its interesting that the "Israel is evil crowd" have yet to note what a proper peace would look like.

I don't think you can read the english language.

hugs and kisses to you too Shuma.

Is that Texan for "You. Me. Shotgun duel at Dawn."?

There weren't any Arab nations in the modern sense until the 1950s, so I can't see how they would have contested Israeli possession of Palestine in 1,000 BC.

Of course at that time, and for much of its history, Israel was one of two Jewish nations competing for dominance in the area with Canaanites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans and others.

The modern idea of Israel as a unitary nation state comprising the homeland of the Jews returned from diaspora, wasn't conceived until the late 19th century.

Kilkrazy wrote:There weren't any Arab nations in the modern sense until the 1950s, so I can't see how they would have contested Israeli possession of Palestine in 1,000 BC.

Of course at that time, and for much of its history, Israel was one of two Jewish nations competing for dominance in the area with Canaanites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans and others.

The modern idea of Israel as a unitary nation state comprising the homeland of the Jews returned from diaspora, wasn't conceived until the late 19th century.

I know. Plus, it was the Romans (If I'm not mistaken) that scattered the Jews with the razing of Jerusalem, not enslavement by Egyptians.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I know. Plus, it was the Romans (If I'm not mistaken) that scattered the Jews with the razing of Jerusalem, not enslavement by Egyptians.

It happened several times. Though in the case of the Egyptians, as the Bible tells it, the Jews went to Egypt willingly because of a famine in the Palestiniann region, if we assume that is where they were. I can't remember if the Bible says that's where they were. The Persians and the Babylonians also scattered the Jews before the Romans. They always somehow find their way back there, but we also should remember that in none of the Diasporas did all the Jews leave. There's been a minority Jewish population constantly present in the region since Rome. They started going back in large number in the 1880's I think?

Also, let's not forget the first Palestinian terrorists - that would be Zionist terrorists killing their British occupiers. That's ok though - they were fighting for their freedom, unlike...

Oh. Nevermind.

Kanluwen wrote:
Find me a Palestinian Christian suicide-bomber and I'll agree with you that the Christians are in the exact same situation, munchkin.

George Habash wasn't a suicide bomber, but he was a terrorist and a Greek Orthodox Christian who founded the second largest member group of the PLO. Its difficult to find examples of Christian suicide bombers because there are so few Christian Palestinians, and because its difficult to find good information on individual suicide bombers. Many times reports on them will be limited to their names, which are almost universally Arab (and therefor Muslim in the eyes of many), and affiliations, which will almost always be largely Muslim (because there are so few Christians).

dogma wrote:You don't know much about the Ottoman Millets, do you?

I'm not sure how sitting comfortably and eating grains is going to help.

That's what the pole tax paid for.

Ottoman's for all, and enough Millet to last the year.

Albatross wrote:Also, let's not forget the first Palestinian terrorists - that would be Zionist terrorists killing their British occupiers. That's ok though - they were fighting for their freedom, unlike...

Oh. Nevermind.

I thought Ottoman Milletts was a Turkish camping equipment shop.

I was going to skip this thread, but Albatross is being a hippy again and shuma and emp are chipping in for good measure.

I'll make it real simple for you lot.

Both sides are bad, but only one side blows British and American citizens up in this day an age.

The enemy of your enemy is your friend boys, join me in praise of the fine chaps of the Israeli army!

I just want them to totally flatten Palestine and turn it into a theme park, we can go ice skating enroute to Afghanistan!

And so Frazzled's campaign to poo-poo the peace talks and sock it to dem dirty towelheads begins

At the end of the day, people are dying out there... both sides can be blamed (though at the moment I'd say Israel possesses the high score): What rational human being out of us could possibly not want peace to happen? Regardless of the details of what each of us think the two parties should get from any deal, we can try to trust them to try and arrive at an amiable conclusion, or at least I can, solely on the promise of prospective peace.

At the end of the day conflict is inevitable but I can't criticise anyone who tries to end the violence: It's what happened in Northern Ireland. The only viable long-term solution is to remove the Arabs or the Israelis and neither is going to happen. Whether we want one state or two... it doesn't matter, for now the Israelis need to honour international law.

I'd also say the "race" card can be far more justly played by the Palestinians right now because of this insane American perception of the Islamic world as the "enemy": The Israelis will call anti-Zionists anti-Semites: But at the end of the day they're the grandchildren of men forced to live in a ghetto doing exactly the same thing to an unrelated ethnic group.

...Goddamnit israel. Just kill these ragheads already. Fighting over something the size of new jersey? Just let the jews have it!

Okay, there's my opinion on anything related to israel


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:

LordofHats wrote:Isn't news supposed to be news. Peace talks and someone wants to blow something up? Isn't that par for the course by now

I will point out to you Arctik that the past few cease-fires have all been broken by the same party: Hint. It's not Israel. Violence in the region is perpetuated by radical Palestinians who attack Israel, prompting increasingly heavy handed responses from Israel. I'm not going to accept them as victims when they're responsible for their own situation. Britain offered them their own country in 1949. They refused. Guess that hasn't worked out so well for them, huh?

Who assassinated the last Israeli prime minister who was involved in a peace process?

Hint: It was an Israeli Jew.

Wasn't it one of those right-winger jews though? They're bottomefeeders, really. They serve no purpose except to cause trouble amongst themselves.

mattyrm wrote:I was going to skip this thread, but Albatross is being a hippy again and shuma and emp are chipping in for good measure.

I'll make it real simple for you lot.

Both sides are bad, but only one side blows British and American citizens up in this day an age.

The enemy of your enemy is your friend boys, join me in praise of the fine chaps of the Israeli army!

Why do you want to keep friends that keep getting us more enemies while borrowing and breaking our things? They're bad friends. Do you like being abused in a relationship?

Wasn't it one of those right-winger jews though? They're bottomefeeders, really. They serve no purpose except to cause trouble amongst themselves

They also have quite a bit of political sway in the Israeli political establishment and guide many policy decisions. You should probably stop assuming that israels ultraconservative minority is something to brush off.

mattyrm wrote:I was going to skip this thread, but Albatross is being a hippy again and shuma and emp are chipping in for good measure.

I'll make it real simple for you lot.

Both sides are bad, but only one side blows British and American citizens up in this day an age.

The enemy of your enemy is your friend boys, join me in praise of the fine chaps of the Israeli army!

I just want them to totally flatten Palestine and turn it into a theme park, we can go ice skating enroute to Afghanistan!

You don't count the Israeli Army shooting British and US citizens as bad, then?

mattyrm wrote:I was going to skip this thread, but Albatross is being a hippy again and shuma and emp are chipping in for good measure.

I'll make it real simple for you lot.

Both sides are bad, but only one side blows British and American citizens up in this day an age.

The enemy of your enemy is your friend boys, join me in praise of the fine chaps of the Israeli army!

I just want them to totally flatten Palestine and turn it into a theme park, we can go ice skating enroute to Afghanistan!

Well, I don't know about blowing them up, but they have run them over with bulldozers.

Edit that, now I actually do know! Israel is the only government in the Middle East to DIRECTLY *emphasis on directly* conduct acts of terrorism against America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U1PJY7wxNI

They also have quite a bit of political sway in the Israeli political establishment and guide many policy decisions. You should probably stop assuming that israels ultraconservative minority is something to brush off.

Oh, I agree. I guess I'm liberal, and some of us tend to think the right-wingers are only a very small part of society

SamplesoWoopass wrote:

Edit that, now I actually do know! Israel is the only government in the Middle East to DIRECTLY *emphasis on directly* conduct acts of terrorism against America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U1PJY7wxNI

Hey now you know!