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The process involving the Hit from the ram which can cause a 'destroyed – explodes!’ which in turn allows the vehicle to continue on it's way (or halt if there wasn't) has been. And we are told to 'resolve the collision as follows' and that 'any result is immediately applied'.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I mean, the Deff Rolla hits are resolved during the Ram,not after it.

"Any tank shock made by a deffrolla equipped wagon causes " has to be made, ie past imperfect tense.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

bucketwalrus wrote:

1. Pivot/declare ram
2. Move to contact (up to max distance)
3. Resolve ram hit.

CCP wrote:If I might just get all up in here. You've resolved thwe ram hit okay, and the vehicle didn't suffer a 'explodes', so you've followed the instructions 'the rammer halts', right?

4. If the vehicle did not survive this. apply the deffrolla hits
a. if the rammed vehicle explodes, continue moving, even ramming another vehicle if its in the way as well.

CCP wrote:So how are you going to cotinue moving at this point? (remember: you've halted)

b. if even the deffrolla did not explode the rammed vehicle, stop moving.

No, the ram is NOT over until the deffrolla hits are applied. since the deffrolla is PART of the ramming process. not AFTER it.

Since a ram is the rammer smashing into the rammee, we must apply the basic ram first. This is where the deffrolla comes in, as it applies its hits DURING the ram process. If the rammee, does not explode from either result. The rammer halts.

Now that the deffrolla has finished its hits, the ram concludes, unless the rammee DID explode. the rammer then continues forward.. possibly smashing into anything else that might be in the way.

ChrisCP wrote:The process involving the Hit from the ram which can cause a 'destroyed – explodes!’ which in turn allows the vehicle to continue on it's way (or halt if there wasn't) has been. And we are told to 'resolve the collision as follows' and that 'any result is immediately applied'.

And, again, those are the NORMAL rules for ramming, and we agree with you there. Deffrollas are NOT business as usual- we have to find a way to reconcile them with the normal order.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I mean, the Deff Rolla hits are resolved during the Ram,not after it.

"Any tank shock made by a deffrolla equipped wagon causes " has to be made, ie past imperfect tense.

Since you brought the grammar into it...

"In English, the term refers a form of the verb that combines past tense with similar aspects, such as incomplete, continuous, habitual, or coincident with another action."

So, yes, it is the past imperfective, and it does not mean "past tense." It means something that is ongoing or continuous. Or, even more on the nose, COINCIDENT.

Either way, the FAQ tells us the deffrolla works "when ramming" vehicles-- not "after having rammed" a vehicle.

Kart took the words out of my... er.. hands.. yes.

Pretty much sums it up.

re-cap:

Deffrolla hits are applied during a ram/tankshock, not after it, thus the ram is only halted if BOTH attacks fail to explode the vehicle.

Thus, if either hit is successful (the initial ram or simultaneous deffrolla hits) at exploding the vehicle. The BW continues its designated ram/tankshock move

end of story. There is nothing else you can argue out of this ChrisCP. We, the dakka-dakka-ites of today have torn this poor rule appart so many times it can't be counted. And each time it is done, the same result applies..

"DEFFROLLA'S STILL GONNA CRUMP YER STUFF"

And you guys still haven't addressed that if you've followed the instructions the only way to continue moving is if a Ram hit (not a deffrolla hit as is clarified by the faq as a diffent thing) causes an 'Explodes' Result. If it does not one is told to halt. And then you want to start moving again... so as we're back at the point we were last time - me asking you for the bit where damage caused by a Str 10 deffrolla hit gives you permission to continue ones move if the ram hit fails?

". The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock."

From the FAQ-- nothing in there about it being "different" from the ram... in fact, quite the opposite, it tells us that the hits are part of the Ram.

1. Declaration
2. Movement
3. Hits/Damage
4. Continue/Stop.

If you had to choose one of those 4 categories to place the d6 S10 HITS and their subsequent DAMAGE into, which of those four categories would it make the most sense to place them?

A) deffrolla hits ARE ram hits- GW's FAQ tells us that these hits are resolved as part of a ram
B) the rules don't say that "the only way to continue moving is if a Ram hit (not a deffrolla hit...", they just ask: did the vehicle explode? If yes, continue on.
C) under your interpretation, the ram hits could destroy the BW before it does its deffrolla hits- is this supported in the RAW anywhere?

Again I stress the fact that you are ignoring what the FAQ has clarified about the deffrolla upgrade.

The deffrolla is an upgrade to the battle wagon that enhances it's rams and tankshocks with d6 strength 10 hits. These hits will occur at the SAME time as the ram/tankshock.

Quote:
Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

EDIT: kart cut me off.. anyway..

This alone tells us that the deffrolla is INDEED PART OF THE RAM/TANKSHOCK MOVE. not before, not after. PART. Which means any hits delivered by the deffrolla will happen SIMULTANEOUSLY with the ram.

I don't know where your getting the deffrolla is different from the ram. ITS THE SAME.

I would place the deffrolla hits where the ram hits are, since they occur simultaneously.

You know what I'm enjoying? I'm enjoying the mess that creating Ramming as a type of Tank Shock has made. It's unusual that I agree with the majority that GW publishes horrifying semantic train-wrecks of written rules, usually because they're pretty straightforward if you're not an idiot, but in this case they've not only manage to make the rules incoherent, but actually less coherent than before. I think I detect wolf-like typing in the Ork FAQ...

Nurglitch wrote:You know what I'm enjoying? I'm enjoying the mess that creating Ramming as a type of Tank Shock has made. It's unusual that I agree with the majority that GW publishes horrifying semantic train-wrecks of written rules, usually because they're pretty straightforward if you're not an idiot, but in this case they've not only manage to make the rules incoherent, but actually less coherent than before. I think I detect wolf-like typing in the Ork FAQ...

Couldn't agree more.

But from what we can salvage from this single "beating a dead horse thats been dead for years now" action. Is quite clear and reasonable.

@Chris: I don't see how you can't comprehend what is so clear. If you truly think a deffrolla shouldn't be able to keep going because the single ram hit failed even though the deffrolla hits happen AT THE SAME TIME. Then stop trying to convert us to your sight of mind. because what your trying to portray is just not feasible when the answer is clear as day.

But it's so clear to me.
We have an FAQ clearly stating "The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits"
and the Ram rules saying that
"Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts."

Yet you people are trying to say that the Hit from the collision is the same as the hits from a Deffrolla...

Not the same- they're just simultaneous. The Deffrolla hits are an intrinsic part of the ram. Think of it like firing a rokkit from within a unit of shootas. You may roll separately, but its all happening at once.

The requirement is "if the vehicle that is rammed is not removed"
It does not require that the vehicle is removed because of the single ram hit, although this would be the base case, just that the vehicle is removed. Deff rolla hits, which happen at the same time as you calculate the strength hit from the ram and work out if the ram hit has caused any damage, could be the trigger.

So a ram, or the hits from a deff rolla, can both cause the vehicle to be removed and thus satisfy the requirement for the rammer to keep moving.

Okay nos, how are you unlinking the two sentences in your mind.

"any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts."

Keeping in mind that partial first sentence's topic is indeed that single hit generated by the Ram.
And the FAQ quite clearly states that the X Str 10 hits come from the DR.

Because the actions happen at the same time?

You are treating the whole RAM procedure as atomic, when it isnt. The topic of the second sentence is normally the ram hit, however the DR hits can also be "immediately applied" and can cause the vehicle to be removed, which fulfils the critera of the second sentence.

In essence the context of the second sentence is altered due to the DR action.

ChrisCP wrote:

And the FAQ quite clearly states that the X Str 10 hits come from the DR... as part of the ram.

The issue is the rules don't tell us how to integrate the DR hits; why would the BRB need to address specific issues from other codices? So, we're left to figure out how best to integrate the DR hits.


P1: Deffrolla hits are part of a Ram
P2: A ram includes Declaration, Movement, Contact/Damage, Conclusion
--
C: Deffrolla hits are done with the rest of the Hits/Damage of the ram.

The DR hits obviously can't be done during declaration or movement, as a ram hasn't occurred yet. If it happens during the "conclusion," we still need to decide if it happens before or after the procedure checks if the Rammed vehicle has been destroyed. If we say after, then the Ram is already completed, and we're breaking the rules. Further, if we've already resolved Ram damage, there's a chance that the BW would be destroyed before DR hits are done- this would also violate the rules.

bucketwalrus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:You know what I'm enjoying? I'm enjoying the mess that creating Ramming as a type of Tank Shock has made. It's unusual that I agree with the majority that GW publishes horrifying semantic train-wrecks of written rules, usually because they're pretty straightforward if you're not an idiot, but in this case they've not only manage to make the rules incoherent, but actually less coherent than before. I think I detect wolf-like typing in the Ork FAQ...

Couldn't agree more.

Yes. Instead of wasting time and effort with Ork opponents trying to work out exactly how you use the Deffrolla, I destroy them. Arguments, logic and all the "nice" approaches will just give you a headache. A primeval "hit it until it stops writhing" response is the only sane one. I do not care if the opponent has Ghazkull Thraka, Nob Deathstar and an Idol of Gork. The Rolla equipped BW gets nuked until it glows. Everything else can wait.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the actions happen at the same time?

You are treating the whole RAM procedure as atomic, when it isnt. The topic of the second sentence is normally the ram hit, however the DR hits can also be "immediately applied" and can cause the vehicle to be removed, which fulfils the critera of the second sentence.

In essence the context of the second sentence is altered due to the DR action.

True, but the DR hits aren't a "ram" even though they are part of the "ram action". I think what ChrisCP is saying is that the only express permission you're given is to keep moving if a ram removes the vehicle. It doesn't matter what is "a part" of the ram or not. It's not the ram itself.

The DR hits are a byproduct of the ramming action. It's something that happens in addition to the ram, but at the same time as the ram. However, the only thing covered by the rules are the ram itself, no matter what else the ram happens to do. At least, that's what I'm gathering from the conversation.

On the one single point of timing...we do have a way to determine the order.

"Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit..."

This does mean that the one hit from the ram itself is resolved immediately, ie right then before we even think of doing anything else. So the first hit from the ram occurs, well...first. There is no such requirement for the hits from the rolla, so they have to occur after the first inital ram hit is resolved.

Now this doesnt address at all any of the rest of the question, but it does clearly give us a bit of a timeline.




Sliggoth

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the actions happen at the same time?

Doesn't matter that they happen at the same time, doesn't matter that a Ram is a Tank Shock and vice versa. All that the FAQ does is allow the Deffrolla to be used when ramming. That's it. It does not make the Deffrolla part of the Ram and/or ram resolution. The ramming rules do indeed state that it has to be the Ram hit that blows up the vehicle. The DR hits are ancillary attacks allowed by the Tank Shock/Ram and are not part of the Ram resolution.

Don - "If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts" makes no requirement on the Ram Hit being the culprit behind removing the vehicle.

Oh lord, this again?

We go through this crap once a week, and we never come to a concensus.

Bottom line, if you're an Ork player, or playing an Ork player, discuss Deff Rollas with your opponent pre-game, or with your TO in a tournament setting.

I'm personally in the "if the vehicle being rammed is removed by Deff Rolla hits, the ramming vehicle continues" camp, but, knowing the gak storm this particular set of rules stirs up, will always clarify this one with my opponent before we begin playing.

SaintHazard wrote:Oh lord, this again?

We go through this crap once a week, and we never come to a concensus.

That was my point. No actual line of text actually addresses how or when the Deffrolla interacts with the RAM because it simply doesn't say.

I do like how the logic to deny Deffrollas ramming through things is the same logic which used bold-face type to distinguish ramming from tankshocking as different subsections of tank rules to deny deffrollas on rams as well. And we all see where that got us... apparently Ramming *IS* a special type of tank shock after all.

Basically it doesn't clearly say. All interpretations on timeline are IMPLIED. Nothing requires the RAM HIT to remove the vehicle which means if the timeline is in question there is no definitive answer. It will need to be FAQed and discuss beforehand with friends.

There seems to be two camps over the DR issues.

1. The DR is part of the ram attack.

2. The DR is not part of the ram attack.

The reason I say this, is because I just read the four pages on DR vs Skimmers.

Some bodies are trying to claim that the DR is both part of and not part of a ram attack.

If it is part of the ram attack then if a vehicle is destroyed by it the BW can continue moving. Also a skimmer that successfully dodges takes no damage.

If it is not part of the ram attack then the ram alone has to destroy the vehicle and the BW must stop even if the DR destroys the offending item. Also a skimmer takes damage even if it successfully dodges.

So which is it?

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:So which is it?

The world may never know. . . .

Honestly, guys... if you're trying to claim it doesn't happen at the same time as the other damage rolls, there's no reason why it wouldn't happen BEFORE the other damage rolls. As in, defrolla hits first, then regular ramming hits. (In fact, I'd say this makes more sense than claiming it happens afterwards. After all, the defrolla is in front of the BW, and comes into contact with the opposing vehicle before the hull of the BW does.)

Trying to claim that the extra damage happens after the ram would be like trying to claim that a weapon that gives its owner "an extra attack in close combat" gives that extra attack after combat resolution is over. There's no actual justification for it in the rules, and it makes no sense. Perhaps the rule is slightly too vague, but it's not THAT hard to come up with a reasonable answer.

DaveL wrote:Honestly, guys... if you're trying to claim it doesn't happen at the same time as the other damage rolls, there's no reason why it wouldn't happen BEFORE the other damage rolls.

Point is, it doesn't matter when it happens. All that matters is the Ramming rules themselves. The ramming rules, read in their entirety (In other words, quit ignoring the sentence before the one about removing the vehicle), state that if the RAM causes a vehicle exploded, then the ramming vehicle continues and that if the RAM does not cause an exploded result, the ramming vehicle stops. It's really that simple. The Deffrolla can happen before, during, after, doesn't matter. It's not part of the Ram itself, it's a separate set of attacks ALLOWED because you are ramming.

1.The ram hit happens immediately and simultaneously with the Deffrolla ("when ramming"- not before or after).

2. Is there a vehicle left in front of you?

Yes- Stop.

No- Continue ramming.

3. But the ram didn't kill it! The Deffrolla did. Go to question 2, and answer it again.

Gitzbitah wrote:1.The ram hit happens immediately and simultaneously with the Deffrolla ("when ramming"- not before or after).

2. Is there a vehicle left in front of you?

Yes- Stop.

No- Continue ramming.

3. But the ram didn't kill it! The Deffrolla did. Go to question 2, and answer it again.

+1 for summing up everything

+1 for taking a defenders point of view and running it over with a deffrolla

Gitzbitah wrote:1.The ram hit happens immediately and simultaneously with the Deffrolla ("when ramming"- not before or after).

2. Is there a vehicle left in front of you?

Yes- Stop.

No- Continue ramming.

3. But the ram didn't kill it! The Deffrolla did. Go to question 2, and answer it again.

Distilled into its very core substance, this is the rule. If you were to dissect this rule and lay it out so that something as literal as a silicon processor could understand it, it would look like this. And this is ultimately correct.

Are you, by any chance, a VB programmer?

I'm with SaintHazard on this one. This again!?

ChisCP has already given the link to the old debate. Why re-hash? It's not like that debate came to a conclusion, except for Gwar! correctly stating you need to make stuff up when things like this do happen.

And remember, guys, the most tenacious poster on a topic isn't the one that's right, only the one that refused to give up. No point kicking the dog to go fetch. It's dead.

Edit: Ugh... Visual Basic :(