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This doesn't really make sense to me. The Ork codex stats it does d6 hits on a tank shock. Why have I seen it used on vehicles? Am I missing something, or are people playing it wrong?

Check the FAQ (here), vehicles are valid.

Best not to get into it. GW FAQ'd that it did.

There are arguments for both sides but it really never goes anywhere.

kirsanth wrote:Check the FAQ, vehicles are valid.

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

Just so I can explain this to opponents. I just tank shock at the vehicle, I don't ram it? The Deff-Rolla hits because running into the vehicle stops the tank shock correct? Say the vehicle is destroyed, can I keep on moving through with a tank shock?

Oh my, I never thought we'd see this can of worms opened again. Ramming is a type of tank shock. Anything you ram, is tank shocked. See my sig for a quote from these historic flame wars.

You're looking at the wrong section of the FAQ. The section you quoted was clarifying the rule about units performing a DoG attack; specifically that they suffer D6 S10 hits + an additional D6 S10 hits due to DoG, even if the BW is stopped. It has NOTHING to do with ramming vehicles.

This is the relevant section:

Games Workshop wrote:Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

To use the Deff-Rolla against a vehicle, you must ram the vehicle. You follow the ram rules as normal (in the BRB), but when you inflict the ramming hit (a single variable strength hit) you also inflict D6 S10 hits.

In other words, absolutely do not try and do what you just said. It's wrong in that "totally going to piss off your opponents" kind of way. No offense intended. I hope what I said clarifies what happens.

Xca|iber wrote:You're looking at the wrong section of the FAQ. The section you quoted was clarifying the rule about units performing a DoG attack; specifically that they suffer D6 S10 hits + an additional D6 S10 hits due to DoG, even if the BW is stopped. It has NOTHING to do with ramming vehicles.

This is the relevant section:

Games Workshop wrote:Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

To use the Deff-Rolla against a vehicle, you must ram the vehicle. You follow the ram rules as normal (in the BRB), but when you inflict the ramming hit (a single variable strength hit) you also inflict D6 S10 hits.

In other words, absolutely do not try and do what you just said. It's wrong in that "totally going to piss off your opponents" kind of way. No offense intended. I hope what I said clarifies what happens.

Okay, I thought the FAQ was organized in some way, since I saw the first two Deff Rolla questions and then about 10-15 non Deff-Rolla Q's I assumed like issues were kept together.

Alright, now lets say I ram a vehicle, and there's an infantry squad in the way. Do they then get tank shocked and hit by the Deff-Rolla as I moved through?

I apologize for bringing this issue up yet again. But the Search function on Dakka is pretty awful and I was looking for some regular-joe explanations. Thanks a lot guys.

you can indeed use the deffrolla on vehicles this is proved by both the faq and the dakkadakka people. Now for your third question

If a deffrolla causes the rammed vehicle to explode, does the BW keep going?

YES! also. if the vehicle is wrecked, the BW just rolls over it taking a dangerous terrain test. AND proceeds to keep tank shocking its declared distance!

A friend of mine tried this on a mech-heavy BA list. He declared a tankshock and destroyed a total of 4 vehicles! he just barely made it to the 5th. IN A SINGLE RAM!

eNvY wrote:This doesn't really make sense to me.

The rules part has been explained to you. From the fluff perspective......a giant spiked and rolling cylinder of destruction that's as big as a rhino.....how would it NOT hurt a vehicle?

Thank you very much everybody. Not sure what I'd do without YMDC!

@Dash: I've tried using similar logic when at the end of the game my opponents try and claim they've beaten me by being closer to some "objectives". I direct them to the place in my codex that states Orks always win, and thank them for playing.

bucketwalrus wrote:you can indeed use the deffrolla on vehicles this is proved by both the faq and the dakkadakka people. Now for your third question

If a deffrolla causes the rammed vehicle to explode, does the BW keep going?

YES! also. if the vehicle is wrecked, the BW just rolls over it taking a dangerous terrain test. AND proceeds to keep tank shocking its declared distance!

A friend of mine tried this on a mech-heavy BA list. He declared a tankshock and destroyed a total of 4 vehicles! he just barely made it to the 5th. IN A SINGLE RAM!

This is not true; the Ram rules state that if the Ram(not any ancillary damage associated with the ram) doe not Destroyed: Explodes the vehicle; then you stop moving.

Also Tank shock and rams have different decrement parameters; If your friend aimed at a vehicle after declaring a Tank shock, no Ram has taken place(especially if he declares anything less than Full possible movement). For a Tank Shock you declare inches to be moved; for Ram you just move as far as is available(based on vehicle sub-type) and calculate damage based on distance moved.

Kommissar Kel wrote:This is not true; the Ram rules state that if the Ram(not any ancillary damage associated with the ram) doe not Destroyed: Explodes the vehicle; then you stop moving.

This is also not true; In no way does the rule state the RAM itself must cause the destroyed action, just at the end of the ramming action... Since there is no valid timeline of when the deffrolla hits occur, it can be argued they happen before the ram, during the ram or after the ram. There is no clear answer, just people who claim thier interpretation is RAW where there is a lot of ambiguity and implied timing.

Seriously? Again?

"Both players roll for armour penetration against their
enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If
the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer
halts."
Page 69

Please nkelsch read it carefully.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311732.page#top

Remember last time we explained it to you?

"If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer
halts."

Tank Shock = Ram.
Deffrolla tank shocking = d6 hits = Ram.

Is the vehicle removed? If yes, continue on.

There's no "order of operations" for when the deffrolla happens- a tank shocked (Rammed) unit suffers d6 S10 hits.

It's not as cut and dried as you keep insisting it is.

"Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armour facing where the other vehicle has impacted (so the rammer always uses its front armour)........whole body of rules detailing how to calculate the stranght of this hit....Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its"

Pretty cut and dried really, unless one could explain how to follow the instructions on page 69 whilst removing a vehicle from a damage result that orginated from a Deffrolla str 10 hit... not the 'immediately suffers' hit...

Are deffrolla attacks resolved as part of a ram action?

(Yes)

If a rammed vehicle is removed, does the rammer continue on?

(Yes)

How do you reconcile that with your version of the rules?

You haven't followed the rules for the ram action.
In fact you've ad-libbed the rules, please quote me where we are told that hit(s) from a DR are the hit mentioned in the ram actions, the one that causes a check to see if the vehicle was removed.
Secondly could you quote me this part "If a rammed vehicle is removed, does the rammer continue on?" because I'm fairly sure that is not what the rules say.

The FAQ tells us (which we already knew) that a Ram is a type of Tank Shock.

So, Ram = Tank Shock.

A deffrolla engaged in a Tank Shock (Ram) inflicts d6 s10 hits.

So, Tank Shock = Ram = d6 S10 hits.

There's no provision for "did this particular hit remove the vehicle." The rules simply state that, "...if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues...".

The deffrolla hits are performed as part of a Ram action. Period. For continuing its move, the rules only ask if the vehicle was removed- it doesn't ask what part of the ram caused the removal.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
------------
Q.Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock

You use the deffrolla "when ramming vehicles."

You want to arbitrarily apply the deffrolla after you've completed a ram action (the last step of a ram is determining whether it continues). The rules DO NOT support that approach, as the deffrolla hits are PART of the ram, not subsequent.

Way to show off selective reading.

"Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point being there is a clear direct way to resolve a ram - if it comes in contact with an enemy vehicle. If the fac tthat the table for calculating the strenght of the hit is stopping you seeing that I can't really help you. If we were able to talk to each other I'd ask you to point out particular parts of the rules and ask how your ignoring them. As I've already done this in text a couple of times here on dakka, but you seem preoccupied with Ram=Tankshock=D6 Str 10 hits=Vehicle continues

Pot, meet kettle.

The deffrolla hits are PART of the Ram action. Where do you suggest we include the hits? After we've completed the ram action (and determining if the vehicle continues its move is the last step in ramming) does not make sense, as the deffrolla hits are PART of the ram, not something that happens after the ram is completed.

Please answer my points and not post (for the third time) the same section of the rules. I've read them, you've read, them, everyone in this thread has read them, and they add nothing to the conversation.

Fluff-wise too, you have to assume that the deffrolla is powered by the magic that is the orkish belief in their technology. Belief is the orks most powerful, perhaps only, weapon.

"The point being there is a clear direct way to resolve a ram "

You keep saying this... and that's true, for standard rams.

Deffrolls are NOT standard rams. They add something to the equation. You are intent on preserving the NORMAL order of operations, but the deffrollas disrupt this.

GW tells us that the deffrolla's hits are PART of the ram action. It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily resolve them after you've already completed a ram.

By the way, Envy is totally right: the search option is terrible on Dakkadakka.

thunderingjove wrote:By the way, Envy is totally right: the search option is terrible on Dakkadakka.

Too true.

Okay, so a new angle using the faq

"The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits "

How does that mesh with?
"Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its..."

Pretty easily... you resolve the ram hits, resolve the deffrolla hits, apply damage, and complete the ram move (or stop the vehicle, as the case may be).

You "use the Deffrolla when Ramming vehicles"- not, as you want to assert, after you've completed the ram.

The fact of the matter is the rules don't delineate a sequential order for resolving the ram and deffrolla hits. I'd argue they're simultaneous, but a case could be made for determining the damage from the ram hits first, then determining damage for the deffrolla hits. Either way, though, the deffrolla hits are PART of the ram action- the method you outline would put the deffrolla hits AFTER the ram is completed; the deffrolla hits aren't a separate action- they are part of the ram.

"you resolve the ram hits."


This, right here, you resolve the ram hits.


"any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its..." "

If you've resolved the ram hits the vehicle has either halted or exploded the tank. One is never given permission to continue moving in any other way.

But the Ram isn't over until the Deff Rolla hits have been resolved, right?

I mean, the Deff Rolla hits are resolved during the Ram,not after it.

I am pretty much on the fence on this one.

ChrisCP wrote:If you've resolved the ram hits the vehicle has either halted or exploded the tank. One is never given permission to continue moving in any other way.

Nor are we given any time frame for resolving the deffrolla hits. We're only told that they happen as part of the ram action.

By the time you've determined that a rammer is stopped or not, the ram action is completed.

1. Pivot/declare ram
2. Move to contact (up to max distance)
3. Resolve ram hits:
a. Rammed vehicle explodes, continue moving
b. Rammed vehicle does not explode, stop moving.

That's the normal order of operations, and we're in agreement there (so, really... can you post it a few more times for us?).

Now, we need to put "resolve d6 S10 hits" somewhere in that order. You're advocating "Step 4: resolve deffrolla attacks," but there's no support in the text for that. It makes more sense (and is supported by the wording of the FAQ) to resolve the deffrolla at the same time as the ram hits, and then apply all damage results. Your method leads to the possibility that the battlewagon explodes by way of ram damage before the deffrolla happens- a situation CLEARLY not supported by the RAW.

IMHO I think people are agueing this because they don't want to lose so many vehicles to a single ram. If your so scared of the deffrolla. KILL THE BW.

It has been proven time and time again, the deffrollas hits are determined as PART OF THE RAM. thus the rammed vehicle suffers the actual ram of the BW, AND the deffrolla hits. IF the vehicle is removed, the BW continues to ram in the decided direction until something DOES stop it.

adding to karts list:

1. Pivot/declare ram
2. Move to contact (up to max distance)
3. Resolve ram hit.
4. If the vehicle did not survive this. apply the deffrolla hits
a. if the rammed vehicle explodes, continue moving, even ramming another vehicle if its in the way as well.
b. if even the deffrolla did not explode the rammed vehicle, stop moving.


NUFF SAID.

As for the event in which a BW is lucky enough to get so many vehicles lined up in such a way it is able to consecutively able to ram each one until one doesn't explode (which is hard since an armor 14 BW ram + movement + deffrolla hits is hard to survive)