Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SaintHazard wrote:I have a handy tool to do that math for you, too.

It's called a goddamn calculator. Failing that, a piece of goddamn paper.

...seriously, does nobody use these things anymore?

What's with all these mathhammer apps I keep seeing?

Laziness or just plain bad math.
I prefer doing calculations in my head or on my phone... it takes longer than an instant calculator but i trust my head more than someone else's app...
Plus you can't take an app with you into a game, learning to do things 'on the fly' (mental maths ftw?) can improve your game as you more easily and quickly expect what could happen when a player performs an action.

SaintHazard wrote:I have a handy tool to do that math for you, too.

It's called a goddamn calculator. Failing that, a piece of goddamn paper.

...seriously, does nobody use these things anymore?

What's with all these mathhammer apps I keep seeing?

Its easier to plug in some changes in changes instead of punching out the numbers every time. Sort of like its easier to use turbo-tax than doing your own taxes.

If you like using a calculator, do whatever works for you

SaintHazard wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:On paper, they're bad:

1/2 hit (for SM), 1/6 get a 6, 1/3 get a pen, so you need 36 shots to get one penetrating hit, and considering that only destroys on a 1/3, you really need 108 shots to destroy a tank.

However, YMMV and I wholly endorse shooting tanks with snipers.

I built a handy tool to do that math for you. Go to http://www.simhammer.com and plug in snipers from the vehicle simhammer

Snipers shooting as the side of a chimera have a ~1.86% per sniper of destroying the vehicle.
These are not betting odds that you want to take to the bank, but hey if your in a pinch why not eh?

I have a handy tool to do that math for you, too.

It's called a goddamn calculator. Failing that, a piece of goddamn paper.

...seriously, does nobody use these things anymore?

What's with all these mathhammer apps I keep seeing?

If 60 guys buy it, thats some free cash!

Such a fail simulator too.

It shows a 0% chance to destroy a tank by glancing hits, which is absolutely wrong.

Once the vehicle is immobilized and has the guns all blown off by sniper rifles, the next one of either destroys it.

The simulator ignores that completely so it's a pretty useless tool for an army with more than a single gun in it.

Edit:
As for the original topic. S3 rending can glance armor 12 on 1/18th of the shots that hit, so for 4+ to hit that's 36 shots to get 1 glance. At 13 points for a scout, that's pretty fail.
A single tactical marine with even a humble missile launcher is like 10-30 times more effective against AV12 vehicles than a scout with a sniper rifle, and infinitely better against AV13-14, plus he doesn't cost much.

The simulator does not fail simply by ignoring results it fails because it simulates rather then calculates.

If I roll 6000 Dice i know each option has a one in 6 chance of happening so I'm likely to roll 1000 of each result. That is probability and always the probable out come.

How ever if i actually roll 6000 dice any thing can happen. I could roll all 6, or never roll a 3. If i was to do this long enough they should near 1 in 6 odds for any out come but that is not guaranteed. That is simulation and the more complex the simulation the more time you need to run it to get an accurate reading; there is and never will be a 100% guaranty that it is.

Along the lines of scouts, why is it that all their stats are about the same as a space marine and yet their fething BS 3?????

Riddick40k wrote:Along the lines of scouts, why is it that all their stats are about the same as a space marine and yet their fething BS 3?????

Welcome to 5th edition! They were except for weapons and armor pretty much identical in 4th

Less Training pretty much

20 years of battle vs 80

IG are just really lucky sobs

Scouts = Veteran! wtf GW can suck it

Originally, way back in 2nd ed, scouts were the noobs of a chapter. For a while, the fluff flopped around so they were veterans. Now they're back to noob status.

If you really want to play scouts with "veteran" flavor, play Dark Angels or Space Wolves. SW scouts serve a very different role than SM scouts, however.

What things boil down to is that yes, scouts can kill light vehicles. However, they are not a reliable unit for the job, so only shoot sniper rifles at a vehicle if you have no monstrous creature (priority target!) or infantry targets on the table.

Riddick40k wrote:Scouts = Veteran! wtf GW can suck it

You could play space wolves then

Or ride upon the bodies of neophytes!

Ratling mathammer.

AV12 2/3 hit 1/6 pen rolls come up 6 1/3 glance=27 shots to glance=total suckage

AV11 2/3 hit 1/6 pen rolls come up a 6 1/3 glance+1/3 pen=27 shots to get a glance and a pen=act of total desperation

AV10 2/3 hit 1/6 pen rolls come up a 6 1/3 glance+2/3 Pen=9 shots to get a glance/pen 2/3 of which will be a pen=OK against the rear armor of a juicy target.

Ratlings can do OK against rear armor if deployed on a flank and they are given a rear shot, but psyhic battle squads are much more popular of an elites choice.

I can understand why a servitor is Bs 3 but why does a frigging scout have to be Bs 3?? its slowed

Because according to the modern fluff, scouts are space marines who have received most of their implants and genetic modifications (hence str/t/i 4) but do not yet have their black carapace or the extensive training and experience of the rest of the chapter. Being a scout is how a space marine gets experienced enough to have WS/BS 4.

Scouts are meant to be infiltrators, they are the equivolent of a special forces team or a Green Berets,
if you've read ant books about scouts you'll see that they have the same or even better accuracy then a space marine, why would you give someone a sniper rifle if they cant hit the broad side of a barn with em?

Riddick40k wrote:Scouts are meant to be infiltrators, they are the equivolent of a special forces team or a Green Berets,
if you've read ant books about scouts you'll see that they have the same or even better accuracy then a space marine, why would you give someone a sniper rifle if they cant hit the broad side of a barn with em?

Except that's not what Space Marine scouts are in the 41st millennium. Wolf Scouts are. Dark Angels scouts are. Space Marine scouts are not. It's pretty simple, really.

Riddick40k wrote:Scouts are meant to be infiltrators, they are the equivolent of a special forces team or a Green Berets,
if you've read ant books about scouts you'll see that they have the same or even better accuracy then a space marine, why would you give someone a sniper rifle if they cant hit the broad side of a barn with em?

Because Sniper Rifles and Shotguns are easy as heck to make

Boltguns are much harder so you dont want to give the entire 10th company all bolters

TheBloodGod wrote:Such a fail simulator too. The simulator ignores that completely so it's a pretty useless tool for an army with more than a single gun in it.

If you want to send me $500 Ill update the tool to include entire squads, until then why throw poo at something people are doing for the community for free?

maybe with extreme luck you could but the other 99.999999% of the time no it is not suitable. snipers are for power armour infantry and units with wounds that would be hard to take down such as nid carnifex or lord logan grimnar

schadenfreude wrote:Ratling mathammer.
Ratlings can do OK against rear armor if deployed on a flank and they are given a rear shot, but psyhic battle squads are much more popular of an elites choice.

Per ratling shot vs AV 10. Not the best tool out there for the job, but hey if you have nothing better to shoot at.
Total Effects on Target 10.92%
Destroyed or Exploded 2.53%

Shaken Hits 3%
Stunned Hits 1.93%
Weapon Destroyed 1.72%
Immobilized 1.74%
Destroyed 1.26%
Exploded 1.27%

Why in the world are wolf scouts better at range? i thought wolves were melee oriented, and as for dark angels, well they have an older codex.. im also gonna guess the neophytes for the black templars are BS 4?

Riddick40k wrote:Why in the world are wolf scouts better at range? i thought wolves were melee oriented, and as for dark angels, well they have an older codex.. im also gonna guess the neophytes for the black templars are BS 4?

Neophytes are WS/BS 3.

Okay but still, why wolves?

Riddick40k wrote:Okay but still, why wolves?

SW scouts aren't initiates. In the fluff, they are experienced warriors who never really bonded with their packs and are now used for dangerous missions behind enemy lines where there tendencies as loners are best used to serve the Chapter.

Oh i see, well that makes sense

Well seeing that i had my falcon popped by a squad of scouts taking pot shots at its ass , i would say sure give it a go; but don't hold your breath.

Here is the thing to keep in mind. 5 scouts with a missile is 85 points. 2 such units are 170. 10 Tac marines are 170, and get 1 missile launcher.

Now, 2 scout missile launchers are much better than 1 tac missile at bs4. 6 bs3 snipers and 2 bs4 snipers are MUCH better at killing vehicles than bolters, even bs4 bolters. The snipers also are better at tough infantry and even cause pinning.

So while snipers are not fantastic heavy weapons for killing tanks, they ARE fantastic standard infantry weapons as they still can threaten vehicles. For what its worth, if I could take sniper rifles instead of bolter tac marines, I would do it every frakken time! Who cares if at bs3 they only have a 1.85% chance to kill av10, when a bs4 lascannon only has an 18.5% chance to kill av10.

In summary, 10 bs3 sniper rifles is just as good as 1 bs4 lascannon at killing that landspeeder 30 inches away--which is AWESOME considering that snipers are a FREE upgrade on a cheap scoring unit that also gets a missile launcher!

It's 140 points for 10 BS3 scout snipers which scratch only the lightest of vehicles occasionally and aren't good at killing troops.

It's also 140 points for long fangs w/ 5 missile launchers at BS4. They do 4 times as many penetrations against AV10.

Tactical squads are mediocre if you ignore all 9 bolters and just consider it one expensive missile launcher. They clearly are not an anti-tank squad by default. 10 bolters can rapid fire down 9 guardsmen. 10 snipers can take out 2.5 guardsmen.

The statistics already shown show that snipers CAN rarely scratch a light vehicle, but it's an ineffective method of AT. Armies need to bring squads which kill tough stuff and squads which kill weak things. Snipers don't excel at killing vehicles or troops.

(Also, for 75 points a lascannon razorback does 0.75 pens against AV10 per turn compared to 0.55 for 140 points of snipers.)

TheBloodGod, I think you missed my point entirely. It is in fact is not 140 points for 10 bs3 scout snipers. It is 85 for 3 bs3 snipers, 1 bs4 sniper, and a missile launcher. How many points do your spacewolves pay for such a troop unit... What that? Your spacewolves dont get such a troop unit? Then why mention longfangs?

The statistics you mention are entirely misleading. A bs3 sniper rifle is only 1/10th as good as a bs4 las cannon true, BUT it is INFINITELY better than a bolter!

And why are you rapidfiring into guardsman with a tac squad? Showing that guardsman suck does not change that sniper rifles are superior to bolters! 10 bolters have 20 shots, and at BS4 deal 8.8 wounds, true. However, if you fire your pistols, you deal 4.4 (3.3 with scouts)wounds, and then in assault you deal another 5.9 (4.4 with scouts). Besides, its not like you are worried about 10 guard to begin with.

Keep in mind I am not advocating replacing your meltagun on your IG squad for a sniper rifle. I am pointing out the obvious fact that sniper rifles are infinitely better than standard infantry weapons at killing light AV, and come with a few other nice bonuses like pinning, rending, 36 inch range, always wound on a 4+.

It isn't their primary roll. If you need an anti-tank unit, use something else.

I have popped a rhino with my snipers before, but it was a despiration move.

Scouts with sniper rifles need a 4 to hit, then have to roll a 6 on the armor check and a 2 on the d3 to even glance.

If you had snipers shooting at a rhino's front or side armor:

Glance: 50% chance to hit, 1/6 chance to roll a 6, 1 in 3 to glance = 2.78% of a glancing hit per sniper shooting.

Penetration: 50% chance to hit, 1/6 chance to roll a 6, 1 in 3 to glance = 2.78% of a penetrating hit per sniper shooting.

So, if you had a full unit of 10, that would be a 27.8% chance of a glancing hit and a 27.8% chance of a penetrating hit from those 10 shots.

Now, you need to roll a 5 or 6 to pop the transport from the penetrating hit:
1/3*above for the penetrating hit = 9.3% chance of getting a destroyed result on a rhino with a 10-man sniper unit.

kenshin620 wrote:
Because Sniper Rifles and Shotguns are easy as heck to make

Boltguns are much harder so you dont want to give the entire 10th company all bolters

QFT.
And fluff would think Boltguns actually have a better chance at piercing the vehicle armor cause they fire mini-RPGs other than bullets...