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Arctik_Firangi wrote:It is not a special rule of the terrain, it is a special rule pertaining to vehicles under the 'Terrain Effects' heading in the vehicles section. It does not apply to anything but Vehicle units.

Yes its the vehicles rule ... yes it could stop it coming on ... yes ignored.

It doesn't have to be able to stop it coming on - it simply has to be able to stop it from moving. Apparently I can chuck a Grav-Tank 24" from Reserve onto the table and land in the middle of area terrain, and I don't have to take a test because it could stop me from moving that phase.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It doesn't have to be able to stop it coming on - it simply has to be able to stop it from moving. Apparently I can chuck a Grav-Tank 24" from Reserve onto the table and land in the middle of area terrain, and I don't have to take a test because it could stop me from moving that phase.

If you were playing against Tri, you most certainly could. Just like if I were to deep-strike a monolith and it scattered onto impassible terrain, I wouldn't have to roll a mishap, because it could stop me from moving by destroying my monolith!

I like these made-up rules, let's play by them from now on.

Except that isnt what the rules say. But go ahead and play a houserule all you want...

You're going to actually have to use your words if you want to make a point, nos.

*shrug* Point was made, RAW explained (it isnt a special rule of the unit, but a consequence of entering terrain) and you choose to ignore it in favour of a house rule.

Nothing much more to be said - if you want to play a houserule, thats your prerogative.

nosferatu1001 wrote:*shrug* Point was made, RAW explained (it isnt a special rule of the unit, but a consequence of entering terrain) and you choose to ignore it in favour of a house rule.

Nothing much more to be said - if you want to play a houserule, thats your prerogative.

Uh. No.

Tri made that point.

Arctik's been arguing FOR exactly what you just said. (consequence of entering terrain, NOT a special rule of the unit)

Tri's houseruling, not Arctik.

Huh? If you reread it was Arctik who initially said it could be ignored - Tri agreed.

Nos is now correct. Regardless, the special rule could stop me from moving in the phase I entered from Reserve. Hence, the rule is ignored.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh? If you reread it was Arctik who initially said it could be ignored - Tri agreed.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Nos is now correct. Regardless, the special rule could stop me from moving in the phase I entered from Reserve. Hence, the rule is ignored.

Eh, you're right, I wasn't paying attention.

In that case, no, Arctik, you are entirely incorrect.

It's not a special rule, it's a consequence of entering difficult or dangerous terrain.

By your logic, I could deep strike a Monolith on top of a building and not have to roll a mishap.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Nos is now correct. Regardless, the special rule could stop me from moving in the phase I entered from Reserve. Hence, the rule is ignored.

Which is why you are using a houserule, as the rules dont actually say that.

Is it a special rule of the unit, that exists entirely seperately of the board? No? Then it isnt ignored.

The rules about movement-restricting special rules during the phase you enter from reserves don't make any distinction regarding when movement-restricting rules come into effect - except that they cannot restrict movement during that phase.

Is a Wraithlord's 'Wraithsight' rule completely independent of the board? No, under normal circumstances it depends on something else. In this context it is ignored.

Mishaps do not restrict movement in any way - they are conditional and bring their own set of rules into play.

Apart from the mishap where you dont enter the board?

At least be consistent in applying a houserule, makes things less confusing.

Wraithsight is a special rule of the unit which could stop it coming on the board, so is ignored.

Dangerous terrain causing you to be immobilised is not a special rule of the unit that could stop you coming on the board. SO is not ignored.

Simples. Or play it your way and houserule it.

True its not a Special Rule as such but it so much simpler to play it as such ...

After all the only other option is wobbly model syndrome (page 13). Model is placed so it doesn't fall but every time some one needs to measure to it its replaced where it was immobilized.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apart from the mishap where you dont enter the board?

At least be consistent in applying a houserule, makes things less confusing.

Wraithsight is a special rule of the unit which could stop it coming on the board, so is ignored.

Dangerous terrain causing you to be immobilised is not a special rule of the unit that could stop you coming on the board. SO is not ignored.

Simples. Or play it your way and houserule it.

Where does the reserves rule say anything about coming onto the board, or effects that could stop you coming on to the board? It doesn't.

It refers only to rules that could stop you from from moving during that phase. What rules are you talking about?

In the case of Mishaps, you cannot deploy - movement is not a factor - you cannot even enter the board to attempt to move. It is completely different and irrelevant to this case.

The reserves rule is entirely 100% about moving onto the board, as that is, you know, what happens during arriving from reserves....

As I said: if you want to houserule it, that is fine. Just be aware you are doing so.

To get back to the original question: I would house rule it. Being partially on the table as a unit isn't RAW for alive, though neither is it dead under RAW... given that the only line that seems to address this come under the 'falling back' paragraphs. If he just couldn't arrive from reserve because he wasn't able to move onto the table... then that IS dead. Dead, dead, dead. Just like anything else that arrives from reserve and cannot deploy.

Once again, I'm going to ask that the 0.00001" argument go away. Back in the box. For entirely different reasons this time: things will move about during a game. Little bumps to the table do this, so whatever was placed adjacent to a table edge ought to be treated as such, if even random bumps and tiny shifts have opened up a small space.

Slackermages - except you have no rules to back up your assertion that "unable to deploy = dead" - it is purely a houserule; RAW the game halts.

A unit even partially on the table is alive and able to participate, as it fulfills the rules for moving on from reserves.

To assume that moving on == not(moving off) is logically fallacious. In other words moving off the table is entirely different to moving onto the table, and just because being partially off == dead when falling back does not mean the same when moving on.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The reserves rule is entirely 100% about moving onto the board, as that is, you know, what happens during arriving from reserves....

As I said: if you want to houserule it, that is fine. Just be aware you are doing so.

All that is said about 'moving onto the board' is When a Reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge. It then explains that the movement is measured from the edge of the board. All other rules as written pertain to 'special' (i.e. pertaining to a specific condition) rules that either force movement or 'could stop it (the unit) from moving'.

If you want to ignore rules, that is fine. Just don't be so obstinate when doing so.

So you dont think that ignoring rules that could stop you moving onto the board is only limited to the point at which you move onto the board? Somehow it applies to the whole phase?

Interesting. Nice lack of context there.

RAW: 'The rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve.'

It's completely in context.

And, as was pointed out, is the Terrain rule a special rule of the unit?

No.

No, the 'Terrain rule' is not a special rule of the unit. There is no such 'Terrain rule'.

It is a Vehicle, and Vehicles have special rules regarding entering terrain that could stop the unit from moving. All of the conditions are met and you are trying to indroduce conditions that don't exist to refute what is clearly written.

Is the terrain immobilising you a special rule of the unit? No.

It is a consequence of the special rule "difficult terrain" which is a special rule of the terrain.

What is clearlty written /= what you are actually stating. Your method IS a houserule

No, Vehicles treat terrain differently. It is described in the Vehicles section, not the Terrain section. No normal Terrain conditions apply.
By your logic, Wraithlords are subject to Wraithsight when entering the table from Reserve simply because the Wraithlord's special rule has a condition referring to 'Psykers', which are mentioned in a different part of the BrB, and are completely out of context to what is happening...

Arctik, look at the unit's entry in the codex. Is there a special rule listed in that entry that says anything about terrain and immobilization, etc? No, there is not. Ergo, the rule is NOT a special rule of the unit attempting to enter. It is a core rule within the game that applies to all non-walker, non-skimmer vehicles, and as such, is not ignored. If it is not a UNIT special rule, it does not apply in this situation.

hmm... consider the following.

Mobile terrain (ones you can move about) will never be flush to the board edge without going down to an atomic level. There will always be at least a millionth of a millimetre reamaining, where RAW you could wobbly model your way onto the board...

Now that rule about ignoring special rules... even if you have moved a millionth of a millimetre, you have still moved? So the terrain cannot stop you moving, you have already moved.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:No, Vehicles treat terrain differently. It is described in the Vehicles section, not the Terrain section. No normal Terrain conditions apply.
By your logic, Wraithlords are subject to Wraithsight when entering the table from Reserve simply because the Wraithlord's special rule has a condition referring to 'Psykers', which are mentioned in a different part of the BrB, and are completely out of context to what is happening...

Show me the special rule within the UNIT entry (where you are told to look, by the way) that states it is immobilised.
Cant find it?
Guess it isnt ignored then.

Wraithsight states they will not move, and is in the special rules for the entry (gasp! who;d have thought!) and so IS ignored.

Not that I necessarily agree, but the unit listing "Vehicle" is what makes it relevant to what he is saying--as I read it.

And either way, it has no bearing at all upon Deep Striking or most other types of specialized deployment.
Immobilized (etc.) on deepstrike does not stop you moving onto the board, it Immobilizes the unit after it does so.

All rules that can come into effect for a given unit are 'special' by very definition. The list given in the unit entry are only those rules that do not otherwise apply automatically to the unit type. If they apply specifically to the unit type, they are special rules.
As there is no specific definition of 'special rules' in the BrB, only the definitions of the words themselves can be used. Universal special rules are defined for consistency but do not make any ruling on what constitutes a special rule. 'Special rules' and 'core rules' are not seperated by any given definition and you cannot pretend there is a difference. The words 'special rules' are used in different contexts throughout all of the books.

I'm off to bed. Pleasure debating with ya's!