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SO you are saying that rules that apply to every vehicle in every codex are special?

No, sorry, doesnt work that way.

Page number?

See: the English language, definition of special.

Otherwise I will ask you for a page number that defines the word "the". Once you've found that please provide one for "a"

I play Tyranids.

Seems special to me that you (can) get immobilized moving onto the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:SO you are saying that rules that apply to every vehicle in every codex are special?

Do all units follow that rule?

Do all vehicles follow that rule?

Hint: The answer to both is "No".

nosferatu1001 wrote:See: the English language, definition of special.

Having a specific function. Pertaining to particular purpose. Having limited scope. To be distinct or exceptional among a kind (that 'kind' being 'unit' in this case).

So it is exceptional that vehicles follow a general rule for vehicles in the rulebook?

Is AV a special rule now? How about movement for infantry? That's special after all!

Hint: the above is sarcasm. If you are seriously of the belief that a rule that applies to all non-skimmer, non-walker vehicles is truly special, then well done.

Becoming immobilised from attempting to move through difficult terrain as a vehicle i'd consider a rule.
It applies to all vehicles, barring a special rule (or maybe specialer rule) such as Skimmer, or Walker.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So it is exceptional that vehicles follow a general rule for vehicles in the rulebook?

Is AV a special rule now? How about movement for infantry?

Would it matter if they were? What would be influenced if so?

I realize that the response is meant as hyperbole, but what would change if the answer is actually "Yes"?

With USRs being the only defined univeral rules, it could be assumed that the others are special.

Not something I would claim in a game if it helped me, but still seems hard to disprove other than saying "Do you need 'is' defined as well?" Which, if you notice, does not disprove anything other than the desire (ability?) to answer the actual question.

Ok, so arguing about what is and isn't a special rule is pointless as the Rulebook clearly defines special rules. If something is a special rule it is listed as such (Universal Special Rules for example) a special rule is anything that ignores the normal rule set and instead replaces it with this one.

Arctik based on your argument vehicles would not treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain but would instead treat it as difficult terrain. As in the rulebook it only says under the vehicles section that they "Treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain". That is the "special" rule you're referring to ignoring. Vehicles do not ignore all terrain so without the above special rule they would treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain. So your vehicles would not have to take a dangerous terrain test they would instead have to roll 2d6 for movement like infantry, unfortunately this is not the case.

You're argument that the rules underneath the vehicle section are special rules is refuted by the rulebook itself because it goes out of its way to define what special rules are, from your logic all rules are special and therefore unit types and movement types do not exist, so for example a tactical squad could turbo boost in the turn they enter from reserve because there are no rules saying they can't because they are all "special" rules regarding infantry and since that section is now blank in the rulebook for the turn they enter from reserve there's nothing saying I can't but also that turbo boost is a "special" rule for bikes but that doesn't matter because bikes is blank as well and turbo boost doesn't exist, if we go on really there is nothing defining how far my tactical squad can and can't move in this turn whether it be 1" or 48".

No, they are the only universal SPECIAL rules. Your implication is that every rule in the rulebook is special, which doesnt exactly work.

A rule that every vehicle has is unlikely to fit anyones definition of "special". By your logic difficult terrain tests, which could stop a unit fully getting on the board, are a special rule of the unit and so would be ignored. Meaning they could have omitted the word "special" entirely. Assumign they meant special as in "exceptional", then vehicles being immoblised is not an exception for a Leman Russ, it is the norm.

(the subject is the Leman Russ; does the Russ have a special rule that stops it getting on the board? No - vehicles have a rule, which is a general rule)

BTW the define "the" was serious: you are asking where the rule for an English word is, when it has no 40k-specific definition. The only answer is "the English language".

Thanks, TheBlackVanguard.

I still think the vehicle should be immobilized on the table like that ruler. WMS to keep it on.

No rule is broken, and only one is questionable.

Maybe.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they are the only UNIVERSAL special rules.

Works better emphasized this way.

What USR means is that, despite these being in the BRB (and thus part of the general rules of the game) they are still considered to be special rules.

A rule that applies to all vehicles from the general rules is not, by any stretch of the word, a special rule.

Just for reference, nosferatu1001, I think you are basically correct. I just wanted to nitpick so if it is brought up in person I already have the relevant portions in mind.

My first post was trying (poorly) to agree with that sentiment, the rest poking for details.

Wow just reread page 57 and Terrain Effects might not work as we've been playing it ...

"Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of difficult terrain during its move."

In other words we don't test till after its finished moving; at which point it comes crashing to a stop if it fails the test.

Tri wrote:Wow just reread page 57 and Terrain Effects might not work as we've been playing it ...

"Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of difficult terrain during its move."

In other words we don't test till after its finished moving; at which point it comes crashing to a stop if it fails the test.

But you've conveniently ignored the sentence after the next one:

"A result of 1 means that
the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an
Immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to
enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

Emphasis mine.

It stops just outside if it rolls a 1.

Just outside is off the board.

Vehicle is destroyed.

However, if "just outside" is ON the board, vehicle is not destroyed.

This was all stated on page 1 of this thread.

SaintHazard wrote:

Tri wrote:Wow just reread page 57 and Terrain Effects might not work as we've been playing it ...

"Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of difficult terrain during its move."

In other words we don't test till after its finished moving; at which point it comes crashing to a stop if it fails the test.

But you've conveniently ignored the sentence after the next one:

"A result of 1 means that
the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an
Immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to
enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

Emphasis mine.

It stops just outside if it rolls a 1.

Just outside is off the board.

Vehicle is destroyed.

However, if "just outside" is ON the board, vehicle is not destroyed.

This was all stated on page 1 of this thread.

... I didn't ignore it just doesn't make senses since you can't roll a D6 till after its finished its move; at which point it may have passed right through the terrain. There is also nothing to say that the edge of the board is the start of the difficult terrain, you could as easily say it counted as starting in difficult terrain.

i'm with saint and nos on this it clearly states that it has to be a special rule of thet unit, not that units type but the individual unit

therefore it is not ignored and the vehicle is immkoobilised at the edge of the terrain piece if that terrain piece is flush or overhanging the table edge then it is immobilised outside of the filed of battle

by your reasoning if i had an intirely outflanking army and my opponent did the "kroot wall" trick (such has happened in a well documented case) then i could just ignore the fact thet i am not usually allowed to go with in 1" of my opponents models and just jump straight over him

you guys are just wrong face it

vehicle is immobilised at the edge of the terrain piece - fact

Tri wrote:... I didn't ignore it just doesn't make senses since you can't roll a D6 till after its finished its move; at which point it may have passed right through the terrain. There is also nothing to say that the edge of the board is the start of the difficult terrain, you could as easily say it counted as starting in difficult terrain.

Uh. No. You roll a D6 when you attempt to enter difficult terrain, or, for a skimmer, land there. Not after you've moved.

It's in the sentence right after the one you quote, and right before the one I quoted. So now you're ignoring two sentences.

"A result of 2-6 on the dice means that the
vehicle can carry on moving."

"Carry on moving," as in, you move. You enter difficult terrain. You roll. You pass. You continue moving. Or, you fail, and you place the vehicle, as I said, just outside of the terrain.

If you're starting your move "in reserve," as in, "off the table," and the terrain begins at the table edge, when you fail that test, you place the vehicle outside of the terrain, off the table. Thus is the vehicle destroyed.

SaintHazard wrote:
If you're starting your move "in reserve," as in, "off the table," and the terrain begins at the table edge, when you fail that test, you place the vehicle outside of the terrain, off the table. Thus is the vehicle destroyed.

SaintHazard wrote:Just outside is off the board.

Vehicle is destroyed.

This is the part I have not read in the rules.

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Just outside is off the board.

Vehicle is destroyed.

This is the part I have not read in the rules.

If the terrain ends at the table edge, just outside of the terrain is, by definition, off the table.

If you are placing the model on the table, you are placing it in terrain. Illegally.

SaintHazard wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Just outside is off the board.

Vehicle is destroyed.

This is the part I have not read in the rules.

If the terrain ends at the table edge, just outside of the terrain is, by definition, off the table.

If you are placing the model on the table, you are placing it in terrain. Illegally.

Sure, but so is not placing them on the table illegal. So is counting them as destroyed.

The idea that confounds things is that there is NOT a stipulation for what occurs that I have seen.

SaintHazard wrote:
Uh. No. You roll a D6 when you attempt to enter difficult terrain, or, for a skimmer, land there. Not after you've moved.

"Roll a D6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of difficult terrain during its move." I see no attempting here. Only roll for vehicles that have.

It's in the sentence right after the one you quote, and right before the one I quoted. So now you're ignoring two sentences.

"A result of 2-6 on the dice means that the
vehicle can carry on moving."

"Carry on moving," as in, you move. You enter difficult terrain. You roll. You pass. You continue moving. Or, you fail, and you place the vehicle, as I said, just outside of the terrain.

can carry on moving can also include next phase, turn or other opportunity to move.

If you're starting your move "in reserve," as in, "off the table," and the terrain begins at the table edge, when you fail that test, you place the vehicle outside of the terrain, off the table. Thus is the vehicle destroyed.

Nothing destroys a model unable to enter. Area terrain is defined by you and I; personally I would state that anything that is right on the edge continues on past it so tanks don't get stuck. If you don't like that WMS kicks in and the tank moves back to where it was immobilized for every measurement. Nether way breaks any rules.

But there are rules for deploying a vehicle off the board when coming in from reserve.

Specifically, Deep Striking and scattering off the board.

Not sure how it'd interact with normal reserves coming in from a board edge, though.

DS =/= reserves

Tri wrote:DS =/= reserves

That's my point exactly. Two different rulesets that do interact with one another. I'm not sure how Deep Strike Mishap rules would apply to coming in from reserves, if at all.

Kirsanth may be right in that there are no clear rules to govern this scenario.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Arctik - incorrect. You can ignroe the *units* special rules, not the rules of terrain on the table.

Epic - from the fact the reserve rules tell you to move onto the table, without qualifying "onto" both "entirely" and "partially" satisfy this requirement.

So I can move half of a 10 men squad onto the board from reserves instead of the entire squad?

Yes, however you would be unable to do anything withthe 5 that didnt come on.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, however you would be unable to do anything withthe 5 that didnt come on.

So ending your move, either partially or wholly, off the board doesn't mean that unit or units are destroyed even though "the edge of the board is the edge of the world"?

I mean, if a model (vehicle or infantry) is even partially in DT it is still counted as being wholly in DT, so why is it not the same for the edge of the world? Sure, the vehicle/squad could begin the move off the board and move partially on the board, but if it's not all the way on when it ends its' move then it's still not really on the board.

Like with the example I said, the 5 guys off the board are not coming in from reserves anymore on the turn after they arrived from reserves, as they are off the board at the beginning of the next turn and are not in reserves anymore, would they not be counted as destroyed at that point since they are not in play and not in reserve?

The restriction, as has been said, is against moving off of the board.

Not moving onto the board.

It could be argued that the 5 on, 5 off is disallowed as "each model's move" is stipulated to be measured from the board edge during the forced move of the unit onto the table.

It is not solid, but there is no way to move them onto the table if the unit is not in reserve--nor is there a rule saying they are destroyed--nor can you deploy half of a unit.

Kevin - because moving OFF the board is NOT the same as moving ON to the board.

A restriction or rule affecting one does not mean you can apply that same rule to the other.