Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alpharius, are you actually disagreeing with me in any way whatsoever, or are you just being contrary for the sake of it?

Regardless... there are no known "Imperial" creation myths. There might be individual ones for various planets. But none known that the Ecclesiarchy (And therefor the Imperium as a whole) espouses.

I didn't think it was all that unclear - I AM disagreeing with you.

I'm saying that, to date, in the latest background material on the subject, the Emperor has NOT shown the slightest inclination towards wanting to be worshiped as a God.

In fact, we've seen the exact opposite.

We've seen him denounce and destroy religion whenever and wherever he can.

We've seen him limit access to the Warp.

We've seen him try to eliminate the need for warp based travel as a whole.

Alpharius wrote:We've seen him denounce and destroy religion whenever and wherever he can.

... and then (whether intentionally or not) thereafter destroy any of these attempts through his actions, making himself appear godlike in almost every appearance he makes.

Alpharius wrote:We've seen him limit access to the Warp.
We've seen him try to eliminate the need for warp based travel as a whole.

Has nothing to do with religion (religions, too, can despise the warp... and desire to eliminate the need for warp-based travel).

It seems as if you're being deliberately obtuse here...

You have no actual sources to quote, just a 'feeling', despite all signs to the contrary.

Huzzah!

Yes. People bow to imperial creed but aslong as they accept the imperium of mans laws, taxs they keep many of thier own customs such as gods.

Going with Alpharius here. I believe the Emperor was a staunch Athiest who actually outlawed religon becasue he believed it would be the ruin of mankind. And then, it was. The fact that he is now worshipped as a God is in line with the idea that everything that could have possibly gone wrong for humanity has. Basically, The Imperium is now the complete opposite of the Utopia The Emperor planned and the final kick in the nutz for him is he is now the False God of a horrible dystopia.

Dark and Grim!!!!

I feel that the whole Him being a god thing Is due really to thousand of years of him acting like a god. If he didn't want that to happen then he should stop acting like a god but he doesn't. There for I feel as though he really wanted to treated like a god. and Melissia has a great point about every thing he does perpetuates him seeming like a god to normal men.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Going with Alpharius here. I believe the Emperor was a staunch Athiest who actually outlawed religon becasue he believed it would be the ruin of mankind. And then, it was. The fact that he is now worshipped as a God is in line with the idea that everything that could have possibly gone wrong for humanity has. Basically, The Imperium is now the complete opposite of the Utopia The Emperor planned and the final kick in the nutz for him is he is now the False God of a horrible dystopia.

Dark and Grim!!!!

Well, technically, he is NOT a False God, but on the verge of becoming a REAL God!

templeorks wrote:I feel that the whole Him being a god thing Is due really to thousand of years of him acting like a god. If he didn't want that to happen then he should stop acting like a god but he doesn't. There for I feel as though he really wanted to treated like a god. and Melissia has a great point about every thing he does perpetuates him seeming like a god to normal men.

A great point, except for the part about it being wrong!

and what else can he do? He ain't talking much these days...cuz he's dead.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe the Emperor was a staunch Athiest

I don't recall any newer fluff about this (because newer fluff avoids his life before the Great Crusade), however... older fluff stated that he had been a religious figure multiple times in Mankind's history (along with political and military, or an advisor to the same), as he attempted to manipulate Human history to suit his needs.

Given this, I would say that apparently he is not so staunchly atheist as to opposed being worshiped if it suits his needs.

You really need to catch up on the last year or two of books that BL has put out about the events before and those leading up to the Horus Heresy.

Alpharius and Melissa... sitting in a tree!


Jokes aside the Emperor being atheist is the only real reason why I could see him telling Lorgar to stop the "Emperor worship" or he was just REALLY creeped out by it!

Perhaps the Emperor was concerned about what would happen when he wasn't present? Returning to Terra and such? Since we know he created a Council on Terra and wanted humanity to rule itself it would strike me that logically the Emperor must've wanted humanity to aspire to and emulate his actions... to believe that his creations and deeds were products of his humanity (he had mortal origins after all).

If humanity believed he was a God, how could they aspire to continue his dream or guide themselves once he was gone? They had to believe they were of the same ilk (as the Space Marines do).

I still feel he wanted to be a god and made the primarchs and space marines to be his angels.

That would totally make sense, and the older fluff points towards that.

See this is why I think arguments about the fluff are pointless, it always comes to "Old fluff vs new fluff" which is GW just being inconsistent!

And for feths sake, bring back the Squats!

I like the thought of the Emperor when he was crusading trying to get mankind back to the understanding and technology of the past. Striving for reason, science and the like to be more common than superstition and warp powers taking advantage of the galaxy. Now thanks to Horus and other turns of events he is on the road to becoming that which he fought to curb ( a warp deity ). And has to make the most of his drastically altered plans and the Imperium that didn't quite turn out the way he wanted.

Grimdark with a twist of irony. Good times!

As much as I prefer a lot of the older background, ignoring the newer stuff puts you at risk of sounding like you have no idea what you're talking about in certain discussions.

Of course they're not, there IS no newer lore about the Emperor before the Great Crusade (that I know of anyway). There's the Horus Heresy novels (which are basically just repetition and rewording of hte exact same fluff anyway, the only major change I recall is the unfortunate removal of Pius) and... uhm... well, nothing really before the Horus Heresy released. "Modern" fluff basically starts at the moment the Emperor began creating the primarchs and everything before that is a grey area filled in by older fluff.

But if the Emperor is such a user, so willing to go to extremes to manipulate primarchs, marines, and humans, why is it so unbelievable that he had a plan to become a god, even if it was, say, maybe a long-term plan, or a backup plan? It could be argued that it wasn't his first choice when it comes to outcomes (certainly, being strapped to a life support machine probably wasn't), but it is hard to argue that the Emperor didn't go around appearing as if he was a god to the highly impressionable mortal human race.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe the Emperor was a staunch Athiest

I don't recall any newer fluff about this (because newer fluff avoids his life before the Great Crusade), however... older fluff stated that he had been a religious figure multiple times in Mankind's history (along with political and military, or an advisor to the same), as he attempted to manipulate Human history to suit his needs.

Given this, I would say that apparently he is not so staunchly atheist as to opposed being worshiped if it suits his needs.

There's no real proof of that. That's just the imperial church trying to insert The Emperor into all previous religons and myths to increase his seeming "godliness." Don't know why anyone takes that stuff at face value. It's obviously propaganda. "The Emperor is Jesus!" uh huh
The only thing we know about the Emperor is that he was born in the Anatolia area.

The only thing we know about the Emperor is that he was born in the Anatolia area.

Incorrect. We also know he hated haggis.

Oh please, there's people attempting to argue that Sisters of Battle are all really just a group of psykers secretly blessed by Tzeentch because he thought it would be funny, because that's seriously how they want to interpret the fluff regarding the Ecclesiarchy. Compared to that, my arguments at least make SOME sense

It's plausible but the fact is there isn't any proof. While a possible idea it just doesn't really stand up. We have lots of proof that he wanted to free humanity from superstition and religion and no solid proof he wanted to be worshiped. There isn't even any proof that being worshiped could turn anyone into a god. Chaos absorbs emotion not belief, thats why the khorne doesn't care if people support him as long as they are angry.

On the OP question, advanced planets probably go with a scientific idea, and others will use their planets culture. So that it's easier to accept the ecclesiarchy fit the emperor into the planets current culture. As long as they worship the emperor in some form they are happy.

No direct evidence, no. Indirect? Oh hell yes, I cited an example earlier, but there's others if I really wanted to look into the Horus Heresy and pre-Horus Heresy era stories again (I don't). The biggest examples I gave were how the recruited his various primarchs, which if I changed the names around I could have believed was a series of mythological stories of Zeus/Jupiter testing some Greco-Roman heroes.

I never said he intended to literally use worship to become a god, so much as being worshipped as a god is something he is capable of using, and could have planned for (and from his actions it appears he either did plan for it, or he was stupid/ignorant of human psychology).

Yes, he might SAY a great deal, but I think his actions when dealing with humans or around humans makes it rather unclear.

There is no one 'Imperial creation myth', which has been covered by everyone else's answers. Creation myths are likely local, while the Ecclisiarchy maintains that the Emperor is a God, with history prior to Him as inconsequential.

On the other topic... I find it hard to believe that the Emperor couldn't see where his actions were leading. He must have known that he was placing himself in a position to be eventually worshiped as a god. So I'd say that I agree with Melissa as far as that it is very possible that the Emperor intended to deify himself at some point. Of course, I can't read minds (especially one such as His!) so I can never know his true intentions.

Melissia wrote:Of course they're not, there IS no newer lore about the Emperor before the Great Crusade (that I know of anyway). There's the Horus Heresy novels (which are basically just repetition and rewording of hte exact same fluff anyway, the only major change I recall is the unfortunate removal of Pius) and... uhm... well, nothing really before the Horus Heresy released. "Modern" fluff basically starts at the moment the Emperor began creating the primarchs and everything before that is a grey area filled in by older fluff.

But if the Emperor is such a user, so willing to go to extremes to manipulate primarchs, marines, and humans, why is it so unbelievable that he had a plan to become a god, even if it was, say, maybe a long-term plan, or a backup plan? It could be argued that it wasn't his first choice when it comes to outcomes (certainly, being strapped to a life support machine probably wasn't), but it is hard to argue that the Emperor didn't go around appearing as if he was a god to the highly impressionable mortal human race.

Wrong.

Again.

The newer books are not 'just repetition and rewording' of older stories, though at times I wish they were.

(An obvious case in point is Alpharius/Omegon.)

And seriously, time and time again the Emperor, in the latest background, has vehemently and violently opposed religion where he's found it AND especially if he's the subject of it.

Have you even read the latest HH series of books?

You know what this thread lacks?

Any discussion of what it might mean to be worshipped as a god.

Now, there is no indication that the Emperor wished to be worshipped as Jews, Christians, and Muslims venerate what they consider the one true God.

But if we think of Roman or even Egyptian examples, the issue becomes more hazy.

Melissa is correct to use the examples of how the Emepror portrayed himself in this regard. If he didn't expect the common people of the galaxy to think of his as a deity (espeically considering that the Primarchs basically did) then he was sorely stupid.

You too now?

The current background tells us EXACTLY what he wanted to happen.

And it was only VERY late in the Great Crusade when people started to do otherwise.

So, apparently, he was VERY successful in getting his way until MUCH later on.

Melissia appears to have not read many of the latest books on the subject, and as such is a little out of her depth here.

I still have to say he wanted to be worshiped atleast by the mechanicum as I stated before. Also by calling himself emperor he is looking for people to worship him in some way or another hence the Imperial title. Another thing is NO ONE stoped him being revered as a god after his death not even his primarch sons so it seems to me like he was shooting for this the whole time.


EDIT: spelling

@Alpharius: I assume your main source here is McNeill's story "The Last Church" out of Tales of Heresy. After all, that's the only "recent" fiction where the Emperor himself speaks about his goals and beliefs at any length. The trouble with the story is that McNeill is way out of his depth. Assumptions about what it means to be a god are not dealt with at all. Just like in this thread.

Functionally, what is the difference between the Emperor during the Great Crusade and a pagan deity?

May I suggest the excerpt of "first heretic" at the BL site?



Generally, the cultures and level of development of imperial worlds leads to such great differences in human societies in the IoM,
its impossible to claim the Emperors behaviour as knowingly aiming for a god-like status.
The background supports some of the Primarchs surviving the Heresy left to NOT become worshipped as demi-gods/gods.
Its also common that backwater worlds with stoneage/medieval level see the space marines as 'god-like' creatures.
So, if it isn't fully controllable if others see you as a 'god', maybe the Emperor had no choice after acting behind the scenes for millenia and had to show up and take over taking the risk of unwanted worship?

Plus. Repeating the lies of the Heretics and accusing the Emperorof Mankind of any intend of "ascension" to godhood is

Heresy

and shall be treated accordingly.