Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Really?

Because worshiping Chaos works out real well in the 40K Galaxy...

And again, it really does seem if certain people in this thread are basing their theories on out of date stuff, and haven't read the latest works.

Hence, this has become akin to banging one's head against a wall.

But my all means, Ad Astra, Ad infinitum, Ad Nauseam!

Alpharius wrote:Really?

Because worshiping Chaos works out real well in the 40K Galaxy...

It works out fine for the truly faithful. There is a comment about this in the Daemonettes fluff (from the DoC Armybook). It says the Daemonettes scour the battlefield for the souls of those who pledged themselves to Slaanesh. While the triumphant heroes ascend to daemon princes, those who fail Slaanesh are gathered up and sent to the Gardens of Pleasure (or whatever His/Her realm is called). For those who truly worshipped Slaanesh, this is a paradise. For those who dealt with She Who Thirsts only out of base ambition, this is hell.

Plus, what is the alternative? There is no reward for worship of the Emperor. Barring assumptions without BL quoatations to back them up, your soul just wanders through the warp until consumed by Chaos Daemons.

In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

Klawz wrote:In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

The Chaos gods showed Horus this in his warp-visions. There is no certain answer as to whether it is true or not.

Manchu wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Really?

Because worshiping Chaos works out real well in the 40K Galaxy...

It works out fine for the truly faithful. There is a comment about this in the Daemonettes fluff (from the DoC Armybook). It says the Daemonettes scour the battlefield for the souls of those who pledged themselves to Slaanesh. While the triumphant heroes ascend to daemon princes, those who fail Slaanesh are gathered up and sent to the Gardens of Pleasure (or whatever His/Her realm is called). For those who truly worshipped Slaanesh, this is a paradise. For those who dealt with She Who Thirsts only out of base ambition, this is hell.

Really?

That's the reed you're going to lean on?

Chaos is, quite literally, HELL for the vast majority of humanity.

RE: See how Voldorius attained Daemon Prince status.

Klawz wrote:In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

From what we've seen and read to date - Nope.

Klawz wrote:In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

No.....It's Erebus.

Its true that, imo, it is only a theory that the Emp intended to be deified. I think it's interesting and has some substance. There is plenty (and more) evidence indicating he did not want to be worshiped, but it doesn't mean it's not a possibility.

Also, I've only been reading 40k stuff for a couple of years and have only read the new fluff. Maybe some old stuff on Lexingcanum, but all my codices and novels are new stuff. And I have read the HH series (twice for the first three), except for Nemesis (which I just started).

Alpahrius wrote:That's the reed you're going to lean on?

That reed is an up-to-date GW publication.

Alpahrius wrote:Chaos is, quite literally, HELL for the vast majority of humanity

And day-to-day life in the Imperium isn't ?

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:I assume he was fallible, but the fluff that I know has him spending tens of thousands of years manipulating human history. Apparently, he didn't learn a damn thing about humans in that time if he didn't think his actions would lead to him being worshiped.

Couldn't agree more. This is ultimately why the CSM viewpoint is so convincing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@1hadhq: So you think the Emperor is just another failure of a tyrant?

No. the job of failure is given to the traitors...
Example: Horus failure to ursurp the throne

So which minions of the ruinous power POV do you find so convincing?
Your actual masters maybe, conny the evil batman?

Basically the theme of 40K (especially since False Gods) is that evertyhing was going pretty good then religon ruined everything. I think the idea that a non-religeous state based on science and not superstition being better is hard for some people to grasp.

Fiend wrote:Its true that, imo, it is only a theory that the Emp intended to be deified. I think it's interesting and has some substance. There is plenty (and more) evidence indicating he did not want to be worshiped, but it doesn't mean it's not a possibility.

The possibilities are:

(1) the Emperor was a tremendous failure, in which case there is no reason to be loyal to him or his Imperium,

-OR-

(2) the Emperor is as close to a "god" as anyone who is not a Chaos-entity can get, in which case worshipping him is proper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically the theme of 40K (especially since False Gods) is that evertyhing was going pretty good then religon ruined everything. I think the idea that a non-religeous state based on science and not superstition being better is hard for some people to grasp.

I think thematic development more complicated than the latest Fox News or MSNBC debate involving Christopher Hitchens is hard for some people to grasp.

"Devil's Advocate" only works for so long, and then it gets to be really, really, REALLY annoying.

Manchu wrote:

Fiend wrote:Its true that, imo, it is only a theory that the Emp intended to be deified. I think it's interesting and has some substance. There is plenty (and more) evidence indicating he did not want to be worshiped, but it doesn't mean it's not a possibility.

The possibilities are:

(1) the Emperor was a tremendous failure, in which case there is no reason to be loyal to him or his Imperium,

-OR-

(2) the Emperor is as close to a "god" as anyone who is not a Chaos-entity can get, in which case worshipping him is proper.

1) He certainly didn't see that Horus fiasco coming

2)He is as close to "god" as anyone but that doesn't mean he or any of the chaos gods need be worshiped. The Choas Gods are in fact just very powerful Extradimensional Aliens as so deserve so worship whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically the theme of 40K (especially since False Gods) is that evertyhing was going pretty good then religon ruined everything. I think the idea that a non-religeous state based on science and not superstition being better is hard for some people to grasp.

I think thematic development more complicated than the latest Fox News or MSNBC debate involving Christopher Hitchens is hard for some people to grasp.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Seems we can't solve it from the ecclesiarchys POV then.
But maybe a solution isn't neccessary as 2 possible views are better than 1 set in stone.

Wait what, you mean it's okay to disagree with someone? How dare you suggest that. Alpharius will be along to warn you shortly.

No but I will. I don't have a dog in this hunt, so can see the snarkiness on multiple posts and posters. To paraphrase the HH books: Everyone get this back to Dakka Rule #1 compliance or face exterminatus.

I'm not playing Devil's advocate, although that's an appropriate description in the context of this discussion. As far as the background of 40k goes, I think my points can be validly derived from up-to-date, GW-published materials.

Klawz wrote:In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

Not quite.. Erebus claimed that, but what he actually showed Horus was a vision of the actual "real" 40k setting where the Emperor is indeed worshipped as a god and some but not all of his sons -- including Horus of course-- are venerated by the masses as religious figures/saints.

And for consideration... big spoiler here...

It works out fine for the truly faithful.

But even that is, ultimately a short term "heaven" as the ascension and triumph of the chaos gods will devastate the material universe, thus depriving the Chaos Gods of the psychic energy and emotions they need to survive, causing them to wither and fade as well.

reds8n wrote:

Klawz wrote:In the HH series, there was a reference of the Erebus claiming that the EMperor was trying to set himself up as a god. This is why horus went to war.
Is it possible he was telling the truth?

Not quite.. Erebus claimed that, but what he actually showed Horus was a vision of the actual "real" 40k setting where the Emperor is indeed worshipped as a god and some but not all of his sons -- including Horus of course-- are venerated by the masses as religious figures/saints.

And for consideration... big spoiler here...

Spoiler:

it seems quite likely that the XIth legion may well have been disbanded due to their religious views and/or beliefs/practises, this in fact broke Lorgar's heart ( somewhat) as they weer especially close

quote]

What? What? What? Where you getting that from?

Ze First Heretic..

It seems there was a vote over it...

reds8n wrote:

It works out fine for the truly faithful.

But even that is, ultimately a short term "heaven" as the ascension and triumph of the chaos gods will devastate the material universe, thus depriving the Chaos Gods of the psychic energy and emotions they need to survive, causing them to wither and fade as well.

Well, whether that's even possible is debatable. And, even if it were possible, I'm not sure that souls in the GrimDark are "eternal" in the Christian sense. As, I've said these debates always suffer because people bring assumptions from their own religious backgrounds in. The question of the Emperor's divinity should have a lot to do with what divinity even means in the GrimDark.

Souls don't appear to be eternal or really comparable to the Judaic/Christian traditions meaning of the word, they really seem to be more psychic energy constructs -- and yes, I know this might be the case in our world or they might not exist at all or etc etc yadda yadda.. let's stick to the fiction please everyone.

In terms of what divine actually means in the setting.. seems to me that its more of a Greek or Roman type of divinity -- mortals can, and do on occassion ascend or transform/transmute to a similar sort of state, the powers of the Gods are limited in certain ways and, of course as the Eldar show us, they can die or even be killed as well.

reds8n wrote:In terms of what divine actually means in the setting.. seems to me that its more of a Greek or Roman type of divinity -- mortals can, and do on occassion ascend or transform/transmute to a similar sort of state, the powers of the Gods are limited in certain ways and, of course as the Eldar show us, they can die or even be killed as well.

100% agree

And it is in this sense that I think the Emperor both IS a god and would be okay with being "worshipped" (i.e., his billions of subjects following his will unconditionally). I haven't read The First Heretic (is it even out yet?) but I suspect Lorgar wanted to worship him in a different sense.

Also, let's not forget that the Emperor's claim not to be a god is absolutely refuted by his other claim to be the Omnissiah, god of the Mechanicus.

Manchu wrote:
And it is in this sense that I think the Emperor both IS a god and would be okay with being "worshipped" (i.e., his billions of subjects following his will unconditionally). I haven't read The First Heretic (is it even out yet?) but I suspect Lorgar wanted to worship him in a different sense.

Seems reds8n knows more than we so he could add more spoilers to this discussion..

Lorgar acted as he was raised in a theocracy. Priesthood = power.
His idea did work in the end somehow ( but i doubt he likes that ).

In a ancient pantheon, Gods didn't ascend on their own. They were 'promoted' or slew another God.
Maybe the Emperor should have exterminated the chaos'gods' and allowed Lorgar to form his cult afterwards.

1hadhq wrote:In a ancient pantheon, Gods didn't ascend on their own. They were 'promoted' or slew another God. Maybe the Emperor should have exterminated the chaos'gods' and allowed Lorgar to form his cult afterwards

Actually, that's a talk Nurglitch and I have had. I reckon the Emperor gambled with the Chaos Gods, using the Primarchs as chips in the ante. It's just a metaphor, of course: what I really mean is that the Emperor created the Primarchs to distract the Chaos gods while he undertook especially sensitive plans to make humanity safe from them forever, perhaps including his own ascension as a warp god.

Lorgar was ver much into the planet sized cathedral style of thing.

..of course, as befits the setting, it seems he was essentially right and that humanity does need a Godhead type figure to look up to, the spread of the cult diviniticus is further evidence of this.


I don't know if he ( The Emperor here) was or would have been okay with being worshipped as such -- he goes to, literally, genocidal ends to prove this point. Part of me wonders if this is almost one of the reasons why his plan involved the creation of the Primarchs, almost if is as well as acting as (literally) muscle they could also act as "front men" and deflect attebtion/adoration away from the Emperor himself.

leaving him, sort of, free to concetrate on getting things done without all the hassle.

Now I think this was a flawed idea. Partially this is, of course, as they've kept building upon the fluff since around 2nd edition without having a reboot and wiping the slate clean and constructing the saga in a more logical fashion. Of course that is also, IMO< part of the charm of the setting as well.

Personally I think it would be a good idea for Gw to push some idea that whilst the Emperor is indeed a superhuman with incredible powers, this in certain ways makes him unable to fully appreciate or understand your average human. You'll note how as soon as he can he builds other improved superhumans which he surrounds himself with, oft to the exclusion of normal human company.




It's a bit of a cliche in the comic books -- but true nevertheless -- that what really makes Superman the preeminent embodiment of heroism isn't just his powers but his empathy and understanding of normal people, due to his raising by the Kents. The Emperor -- presumably -- didn't have this option, and I think it interesting to note that of the primarchs the ones who fell or had the most problems had issues here as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also, let's not forget that the Emperor's claim not to be a god is absolutely refuted by his other claim to be the Omnissiah, god of the Mechanicus.

Not really. He is the Omnissiah of myth, its just the Omnissiah of myth isn't really all that it's cracked up to be.

..err... BTW... you are.. or are perhaps until they say otherwise, close with regards to some of the Emperor's actions, but not for the reasons or goal you claim.

..unless what we're told is a lie of course.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:In a ancient pantheon, Gods didn't ascend on their own. They were 'promoted' or slew another God. Maybe the Emperor should have exterminated the chaos'gods' and allowed Lorgar to form his cult afterwards

Actually, that's a talk Nurglitch and I have had. I reckon the Emperor gambled with the Chaos Gods, using the Primarchs as chips in the ante. It's just a metaphor, of course: what I really mean is that the Emperor created the Primarchs to distract the Chaos gods while he undertook especially sensitive plans to make humanity safe from them forever, perhaps including his own ascension as a warp god.

The Emperor gambled with the Chaos but not in that sense. He used warpcraft to create the primarches (Primarchs are beyond what can be done with normal genetic engineering otherwise he would have made a million). The Gods became aware immediatley and whisked them away to the 4 corneres of the galaxy which the Emperor. The Emperor thought was the end of it but 300 years later he would realize they had been corrupted and fully half would turn against him.

Huh!

Looks like THE FIRST HERETIC will soon answer a lot of questions!

I like how A D-B has put ANOTHER spin on what that title means, and WHO just might be the real FIRST Heretic!

1hadhq wrote:In a ancient pantheon, Gods didn't ascend on their own. They were 'promoted' or slew another God.
Maybe the Emperor should have exterminated the chaos'gods' and allowed Lorgar to form his cult afterwards.

That's an interesting idea.

Perhaps the Emperor simply strove to rid other religions and the chaos gods simply because they were rival powers. No need to have himself worshiped in this case.

Also, I often see in these forums of similar discussions, that the Emperor may or intends to become a god in the warp himself. Where is this ever mentioned? I'd like to read that source. I've never come across this in the fluff (or the starchild theory, buts that's a whole different thread).

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:In a ancient pantheon, Gods didn't ascend on their own. They were 'promoted' or slew another God. Maybe the Emperor should have exterminated the chaos'gods' and allowed Lorgar to form his cult afterwards

Actually, that's a talk Nurglitch and I have had. I reckon the Emperor gambled with the Chaos Gods, using the Primarchs as chips in the ante. It's just a metaphor, of course: what I really mean is that the Emperor created the Primarchs to distract the Chaos gods while he undertook especially sensitive plans to make humanity safe from them forever, perhaps including his own ascension as a warp god.

Humanity would be safe if the empyrean is becalmed again.
He don't need to be a god. Just free usage of the warp without rolls of 'perils of the warp' anymore and the massive amount of human
psykers will deal with possible threats.

reds8n wrote:Personally I think it would be a good idea for Gw to push some idea that whilst the Emperor is indeed a superhuman with incredible powers, this in certain ways makes him unable to fully appreciate or understand your average human. You'll note how as soon as he can he builds other improved superhumans which he surrounds himself with, oft to the exclusion of normal human company.

Agree with this.

1hadhq wrote:He don't need to be a god. Just free usage of the warp without rolls of 'perils of the warp' anymore and the massive amount of human psykers will deal with possible threats

What I'm saying is that in order to accomplish those things, the Emperor might have to "ascend."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:..err... BTW... you are.. or are perhaps until they say otherwise, close with regards to some of the Emperor's actions, but not for the reasons or goal you claim.

..unless what we're told is a lie of course.

Would appreciate a spoiler here.

..hmm... okay, this is a big ( really..like MASSIVE ) spoiler and I'm going to leave out a few details so you've still got something to read.... I'll clarify slightly here : I haven't read all of the book yet, just a good chunk, and some of this info is, so to speak, passed on from conversations with me more learned friends.