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You seem to forget that these guys are Primarchs because they maintain power over ALL the marines in their chapter. If they were just as strong as all other marines, then there would always be a fight for control. And chances are the new Primarch could end up being a Dreadnaught because of their superior strength.

If you want read Tales of Heresy, A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim...............

Meh, I'm not known for caring about Marines, it just seems likely.

Since when? Space marines don't care about strength, they care about valour and tactics

Ogryn and orks might squabble in such ways, but space marines are to ork as eldar to marine.

Space marines aren't elegant fighters, they'll do what is necesary to get the job done. But, they won't fight over command. part of what makes them so brotherly and tight is that they're willing to sacrifice themselves for their fellow marines.

Well, codex chapters anyway.

Brothers in arms, not arms at brothers.

I got one.

Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines
170 points

WS:10 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:5 I:1 A:4 Ld:10 Sv: 2+/4+

Equipment: 2 powerfists, Plasma Pistol, Artificer Armor.
Special Rules:
Stasis: Roboute Guilliman is in a Stasis Field. As long as he is in a Stasis Field, he must be attached to a squad and moves as fast as the squad does. He cannot attack while in the Stasis Field. The Stasis Field is AV 13. It is not effected by anything on the Vehicle pen chart except wrecked and Explodes.

The Primarch Awakens!: If the Primarch's Stasis Field is wrecked, roll a D3, the result of the d3 is how many turns until the Primarch dies. He is allowed to fight, but is not allowed to leave the squad he is attached to. While he is alive, the Ultramarines begin to fight harder, knowing the Primarch fights with them. All Ultramarines can reroll any 1's until the Primarch Dies. If there is an Apothacary within 6 inches of Roboute Guilliman when he is released from stasis, turn the d3 roll into a d6.

The Primarch Explodes!?!: If the Primarch's Stasis Field explodes, he dies instantly. All Ultramarines must take a Leadership test on 3d6. If they pass, they gain the Following rules: Preferred Enemy, Counter Charge, Relentless, Furious Charge. This rule also applies any time Roboute Guilliman dies.

Since reds8 wants me to actually contribute...

I think a base strength and toughness of 5 is reasonable, although I would think 6 is going overboard. My understanding is that the Primarchs were larger and more powerful than most marines, a step between the marines and the Emperor himself. Didn't Sanguinius fight a bunch of Bloodthirsters? I know he ended up breaking one of their leaders' backs. Sanguinius may have been an exceptional combatant, but I think that nonetheless sets a pretty high standard for their innate abilities. A Primarch would certainly have Eternal Warrior in any case. They gave it to Lysander, after all.

For a serious statline of Girlyman, maybe something like this:

WS7 BS5 S5 T5 I6 W5 A5 Ld10 Sv2+/4+

Equipment: Master-crafted Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Master-crafted Plasma Pistol, Iron Halo, Meltabombs, Standard of the Ultramar

Special Rules: Unique, Eternal Warrior, Stubborn, Logistical Genius, Father of the Codex

Standard of the Ultramar: Guilliman always counts as having done an additional two wounds in close combat, for the purposes of combat resolution.

Logistical Genius: Guilliman may add or subtract 1 from all reserve rolls, from any player, so long as he himself is on the field. This ability stacks with any similar abilities.

Father of the Codex: All models in an army containing Guilliman that have the Combat Tactics special rule may further chose to automatically pass any moral or pinning check they make. (Note: they may suffer wounds from combat resolution if they chose to do so.)

Points: 350?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:The Primarch Explodes!?!:

Nevermind, this one is much better than mine!

1. WS10 appears only with CC gods such as Avatar, bloodthirsters, etc. That should be a basic thing to know, primarchs are not CC gods, neither is emperor.
2. Some of the primarchs are to my understanding very dumb, some of them are smart, AND they were bigger than normal marines (that basicly means they are stronger and tougher).

I woudl think that S5 T6 woudl be fair for a Primarch. Obviously each primarch woudl have different stats and skills.

I would agree that i think Rowboat woudl be more a support character, having a couple of skilsl that affect the entire army, rather than just being a straight shooting or CC machine. some Primarhs woudl excel in CC (Fulgrim & Angron for example) orhter might excel in terms of artillery (Perturabo) or defence (Dorn).

I thought Orkeo's rules seemed good but isn't LD7 a little overpowered? Ha disregard that, I play Alpha Legion. I can't be trusted.

The only official GW marker is Angron who's a datasheet in Apocalypse

WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 LD10 Sv 3+/4++ 500pts

Big scary Instant Death sword, 2-12 Bloodthirster bodyguards (!), Furious charge, angry roar etc

If we were being serious about this you could say a 'normal' Primarch would be a little less tough (given Angron's Daemonic nature) but may have wargear/rules to compensate.

warspawned wrote:The only official GW marker is Angron who's a datasheet in Apocalypse

WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 LD10 Sv 3+/4++ 500pts

Big scary Instant Death sword, 2-12 Bloodthirster bodyguards (!), Furious charge, angry roar etc

If we were being serious about this you could say a 'normal' Primarch would be a little less tough (given Angron's Daemonic nature) but may have wargear/rules to compensate.

That isn't a Primarch, that's a Primarch Dæmon Prince...

Who cares? I was putting foward the only stats for a Primarch that have been released, Daemon Prince or not...AND I did comment on his daemonic nature and the fact the other Primarch's may not be as tough...

Damn... I'm late to the party... here's my 2 credits:

Rubout Girlyman

450 points
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W4 A3 I5 Sv2+/4+I
Eternal Warrior
Iron Halo
Artificer Armor
Digital Lasers
Relic Blade
Powerfist w/ built in Stormbolter with Hellfire Rounds

Legendary Leader of Men: Armies below 2500 points are beneath Girlyman's notice and not worthy of Girlyman's genius leadership. Girlyman can only be included in armies 2500 points and above.

Primarch Slayer: In order to "sever the head, slay the body" and assert his martial dominance over his enemy, Girlyman will unfailingly seek out the enemy commander and fight him in single combat. To represent this, Girlyman and whatever squad he has joined MUST advance at full speed DIRECTLY towards the enemy commander in an effort to engage them. If there is more than one enemy commander, Girlyman will target models the highest costing model in the following preference: 60mm base, 40mm base, 25mm base.

Seize the Glory: To represent Girlyman's favored tactic of using his allies to wear down his enemy before arriving at the last minute to mercifully "save" them, An army led by Girlyman may not use the Drop Pod assault rule. Furthermore, reserve rolls are reduced by one and Girlyman's controller may elect to re-roll any successful reserve checks. All models in an army led by Girlyman are considered to have the Heroic Intervention rule. In any multi-player game in which Girlyman is taking part in, the entire army must be placed in reserve, and no reserve rolls may be made until allied forces have sustained 80% casualties. In this case Girlyman's army also has the outflank universal special rule.

Tactical Awareness: To represent Girlyman's unshakable belief in his own tactical genius, in any game where the Ultramarines are not ahead in scoring by the end of Turn 4, OR if Girlyman is slain in battle - The Ultramarines will "prudently" retire from the battle to "regroup" and "reconnect" with additional elements, and all friendly models are removed from the table, ending the game. In tournament scoring, full points for a massacre are awarded to Girlyman's opponent, and, points for a DRAW are afforded to the Ultramarines, to represent his unyielding self confidence.

Conformity to the Codex: One tactical squad must be taken for every assault squad or devastator squad taken. Squads MUST number 10. Squads which have the option to have a transport MUST have one.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Here are my stats for him:

Rowboat Girlyman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and All Around Failure

Points: 11

Composition: Unique

WS2 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv2+/4+

Wargear:
Artificer Armor
Master-Crafted Relic Blade
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo

Special Rules:
Idiot
Arrogant
Inferior Tactician

Idiot: Rowboat Girlyman is an idiot, who can't even show up to Terra on time, despite claiming to be logistical genius. An army that contains Girlyman cannot seize the initiative. Further, any player going against an army that contains him will seize the initiative on a 5+.

Arrogant: Girlyman thinks he's some sort of brilliant leader, even when he's getting his own men killed. All models in Girlyman's army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Furthermore, Girlyman and whatever squad he's attached to have the Rage USR.

Inferior Tactician: Girlyman could never compare to Alpharius in terms of leadership ability, tactical awareness, or even sense of style. The Ultramarines look like a bunch of scared, confused children whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion's strategic mastery. Any Space Marine army with Girlyman in it loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and has every model's Leadership reduced by 1 whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion. Also, every model in the Alpha Legion has rending.


Hope it doesn't seem to biased.

I agree.

Captain Solon wrote:please... never use ur again. thats what you do on facebook [if then]

Primarchs aren't necesarily any stronger then marines, and even in the case of the emperor, I'd really never go above S/T6, and there we're effectively talking about the marine of marines.

The fact is, by giving him S/T5, he's effectively capable of shurging off things that would kill the average marine chapter master in one hit. - why should a primarch be able to shrug off a blast from a lascannon?

Seriously, I don't understand why a man, duely a well armoured, super-cyborginated/implanted man could ever truely be any stronger then his co-counterparts.

Think about it:
You've a 4+ invulnerable save. that represents a half chance of either being wiped out, or being alive, and charging into an opponent.

Erm. Mephiston is s/T6. He is just a Space marine. I think the EMPEROR OF MANKIND can at least be allowed higher strength than his marines right? Also, fluffwise, primarchs are considered very much to be demi gods. They kill bloodthirsters, wreck titans, smash up avatars etc. Everything about them suggests god. They should at least have the abilities in game to go toe to toe with ctans.

I like how y'all are giving Primarchs weaker statlines then Mephiston.

Mephiston is broken and stupid.

Here was my take on Primarchs, if not Gully specifically

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316620.page

Mephiston dies like a little girl to massed fire. He's nothing particularly special.

Primarchs should be more like:
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
8 8 6 6 5 7 5 10 2+/4+

There's no reason why Abaddon should be able to take one on.

He's not broken because he is completely unkillable. He is broken because he rapes any logic and decency the game had left to it.

Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.

Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.

Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th.

*Shakes head in sadness* Yet another bunch of folk perpetuating the conspiracy which is the Ultramarines being a 1st Founding Chapter, or as I call it "The Great Blue Lie"

For those too young to have any clue what I'm even suggesting, back in the early days of the Imperium there was a Traitor Legion (13th Legion) that was more or less purged and removed from all records of the Imperium, but during the 32nd Millenium (around the 3rd Founding) after much testing and discussion the still Legion-worth of genetic resources were taken to create many new Chapters, with the primary/first inheritor Chapter being dubbed the Ultramarines, first lead by a warrior named Roboute Gulliman and it was following their victory on Macragge that saw the Ultramarines given governership of the world, which would then be established as the homeworld of the Chapter.

As time past, due in part to the successes of the Ultramarines, all knowledge of the original 13th Legion was buried and all remaining and future data would portray the Ultramarines, lead by a Primarch Gulliman, as that original Legion. Why else do you think so much emphasis is placed on the Ultramarines before any other Chapter?

Source: 1st Edition Ultramarines Index Astartes and supporting conjecture throughout the fluff.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Gwar! wrote:

Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.

Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th.

DE characters and SoB heroines had 2+ invuls in 3rd.

Amaya wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.

Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th.

DE characters and SoB heroines had 2+ invuls in 3rd.

They still do. Their codexes haven't been updated yet.

I know. I was stating that stupid broke crap is as old as the game. I didn't bring up Herohammer because I assumed everyone was aware of that.

LSWSjr wrote:*Shakes head in sadness* Yet another bunch of folk perpetuating the conspiracy which is the Ultramarines being a 1st Founding Chapter, or as I call it "The Great Blue Lie"

For those too young to have any clue what I'm even suggesting, back in the early days of the Imperium there was a Traitor Legion (13th Legion) that was more or less purged and removed from all records of the Imperium, but during the 32nd Millenium (around the 3rd Founding) after much testing and discussion the still Legion-worth of genetic resources were taken to create many new Chapters, with the primary/first inheritor Chapter being dubbed the Ultramarines, first lead by a warrior named Roboute Gulliman and it was following their victory on Macragge that saw the Ultramarines given governership of the world, which would then be established as the homeworld of the Chapter.

As time past, due in part to the successes of the Ultramarines, all knowledge of the original 13th Legion was buried and all remaining and future data would portray the Ultramarines, lead by a Primarch Gulliman, as that original Legion. Why else do you think so much emphasis is placed on the Ultramarines before any other Chapter?

Source: 1st Edition Ultramarines Index Astartes and supporting conjecture throughout the fluff.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Thank you so much for this. I'm really glad that someone had the nerve to bring some much-needed info to this thread.

Amaya wrote:There's no reason why Abaddon should be able to take one on.

Have I been dosed, or have I read somewhere that Abaddon is a clone of Horus?

No, he's just a badass space marine back from when space marines were less whiny and more awsum, y'know, and like 9,500 years more experienced than any of the loyalist primarchs, and enhanced by the direct powers of the four gods of chaos.

And as far as Mephy, having a human sized model with the same toughness as a carnifex that out masses him like 15 times over is faaar worse for me than a 2++ save. Just my opinion.

As far as the ultramarines... trying to convince people that have been brainwashed into liking them just takes the joy out of hating them. It's like beating a kitten to death, they have no defense, and it just makes me sadder than I was before.

Bromsy wrote:No, he's just a badass space marine back from when space marines were less whiny and more awsum, y'know, and like 9,500 years more experienced than any of the loyalist primarchs, and enhanced by the direct powers of the four gods of chaos.

And as far as Mephy, having a human sized model with the same toughness as a carnifex that out masses him like 15 times over is faaar worse for me than a 2++ save. Just my opinion.

Don't forget Cassius.

God damn it