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Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As time went on, Moorcock's stuff became so incredibly formulaic that it's not even funny.

Yeah, that's a good point. But this goes back to our Abnett v. Watson disagreement. I'm more impressed with writers that produce worlds, even if they can't keep up the quality over time. You're more impressed with writers that can consistently tell great stories in those worlds.

Quite frankly, Thorpe's done a fantastic job in actually "creating" the Sundering era Ulthuan. I highly suggest "Shadow King", as the story of the Anars is far more interesting than Malekith's hissy-fits.

Thorpe > Moorcock = Loss of Whatever Remaining Credibility Kanluwen May Have Had

Manchu wrote:Worldforge would have done just as well.

except it sounds stupid

brettz123 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Worldforge would have done just as well.

except it sounds stupid

It sounds no more or less stupid than Forgeworld.

Alpharius wrote:Thorpe > Moorcock = Loss of Whatever Remaining Credibility Kanluwen May Have Had

My opinion>Alpharius.

Because it's mine.

Moorcock's no Robert E. Howard. He's not even a Glenn Cook.
Is some of his stuff good? Yeah. But on the whole...it's kinda boring as time goes on.
Conversely, Gav Thorpe's really hit his stride with the Sundering series. Prior to that...he wasn't that great.

Manchu wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Worldforge would have done just as well.

except it sounds stupid

It sounds no more or less stupid than Forgeworld.

But that would be ripping off Hasbro/WOTC/TSR, via Dragonlance...

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Manchu wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Worldforge would have done just as well.

except it sounds stupid

It sounds no more or less stupid than Forgeworld.

But that would be ripping off Hasbro/WOTC/TSR, via Dragonlance...

Put it this way: what if MicroBungie decided to call their worlbuilding tool "Hasbro"?

Kanluwen wrote:Lies! Dune ripped off Halo!

See now, I assumed you were joking with that comment...until I read your comments on Moorcock and Gav Thorpe.......interesting, but misguided...IMHO.

You see, Moorcock created something, yes it might have gotten samey, or boring! I have heard the same said about Frank Herbert....but these guys actually innovated, while the likes of Gav Thorpe and Ben Counter, etc, only repackage ideas that have fallen from the lips of Giants.

The novels GW churn out are generic at best, obvious story lines and obvious characters...bad guy is bad cause he's bad, good guy is good cause he's good.....its written for children, and avoids going into a characters motivations, probably for fear of turning away those who seem to wish for a "quick hit reading experience!"

It makes me laugh how absolute the GW Sci Fi setting is, for example, if a Marine turns renegade he automatically turns to Chaos...its that simple.....and his motivations? well, he's bad, what more do you want

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Lies! Dune ripped off Halo!

See now, I assumed you were joking with that comment...until I read your comments on Moorcock and Gav Thorpe.......interesting, but misguided...IMHO.

I was actually joking about Dune ripping off Halo. There's no feasible way it could have been done, and there's nothing similar to the Flood, no spice, etc shared between the two .

You see, Moorcock created something, yes it might have gotten samey, or boring! I have heard the same said about Frank Herbert....but these guys actually innovated, while the likes of Gav Thorpe and Ben Counter, etc, only repackage ideas that have fallen from the lips of Giants.

The problem isn't so much that it gets boring or samey with Moorcock and Frank Herbert...it's that the authors start out so strong and then end up just so...wasted continuing to write the same material over and over and over. "Chapterhouse of Dune" being a perfect example.

Gav Thorpe started out like crap with the Last Chancers and "Angels of Darkness". Now he's doing stuff like "Aenarion", "Shadow King", "Malekith"...he's found his stride, and he's improved since he started. That's far more commendable than just starting off superduperstrong

Graham McNeill started out like an absolute tool with some of the Ultramarines novels. And his Time of Legends stuff about Sigmar just nabbed him a David Gemmell fiction award.

The novels GW churn out are generic at best, obvious story lines and obvious characters...bad guy is bad cause he's bad, good guy is good cause he's good.....its written for children, and avoids going into a characters motivations, probably for fear of turning away those who seem to wish for a "quick hit reading experience!"

I'm really going to point out "Shadow King" here. Yrianath is the perfect character example.

I can't go into much more than that without being really spoileriffic.

It makes me laugh how absolute the GW Sci Fi setting is, for example, if a Marine turns renegade he automatically turns to Chaos...its that simple.....and his motivations? well, he's bad, what more do you want

You really need to read some better Black Library authors then.
"Soul Hunter" has a pretty good look into the Night Lords and how they loathe Chaos...yet accept it as part of the universe at large.
As for Marines turning renegade automatically turning to Chaos...

Well yeah. Of course that happens. Where else would they go?
The Tau wouldn't take them, and I'm pretty sure they'd have nothing that would appeal to the Astartes anyways.
Eldar won't take them, Necrons won't take them, etc etc.
But the renegade warbands and Legions...they offer a path to a greater power, endless slaughter and reveling in battle that the Astartes were bred for.

Alpharius wrote:Thorpe > Moorcock = Loss of Whatever Remaining Credibility Kanluwen May Have Had

He had credibility before? No gak.

The things you learn...

I'm so confused. Where's the proper forum to comment on the absurdist melodrama contained in this thread?

Kanluwen wrote:Warcraft did rip off Warhammer though. That and the Starcraft ripoff(oh sorry, "homage") have been well-known for awhile now.

What did Starcraft supposedly rip off? It certainly wasn't 40k - their bio-creatures aren't straight copies of Tyrannids, and the concept predates 40k by a long shot. Their 'space marines' are nothing like 40k space marines, they're much closer to Heinlein's Mobile Infantry than 40k marines, and the name is not exactly an original creation. People ripping off the same original sources that 40k ripped off aren't ripping off 40k.

eledamris wrote:Could Halo have come up with something a little less GW-ish than "Forgeworld" for it's level builder? This might just be coincidence, and it might just be that I don't like the Halo games, but it seems like a lot of things rip off of those few nuggets of originality that GW has.

Oh please. What originality. If you paid any attention over the years GW has ripped off a tone of things from other sources. if someone takes from them? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Warcraft did rip off Warhammer though. That and the Starcraft ripoff(oh sorry, "homage") have been well-known for awhile now.

What did Starcraft supposedly rip off? It certainly wasn't 40k - their bio-creatures aren't straight copies of Tyrannids, and the concept predates 40k by a long shot. Their 'space marines' are nothing like 40k space marines, they're much closer to Heinlein's Mobile Infantry than 40k marines, and the name is not exactly an original creation. People ripping off the same original sources that 40k ripped off aren't ripping off 40k.

Starcraft and Warcraft both were unlicensed, unasked for attempts by Blizzard at the time to sell Games Workshop to hand over the licensing to them from SSI Interactive.

Blizzard approached GW with the finished product in hand, complete with Eldar, Tyranids, and Space Marines and thinking they'd be a shoe-in to get it from GW.

GW didn't, so rather than Blizzard doing something completely original they altered a few things here and there like names, basic structures of the characters etc(or are you really going to tell me that the Zerg "Overmind" isn't a flatout copy of the Hive Mind? That the Protoss being psychics with a "Path" that their race follows, and the last creations of a dying race doesn't match up the Eldar being the creations of the Old Ones? Or that the Terran Marines being ordinary criminals jacked up on stimulants and wearing heavy powered armor that they're locked into doesn't match the Space Marine fluff of that timeframe?) but otherwise left their game alone and published it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:He had credibility before? No gak.

The things you learn...

Sorry, who are you again?
Oh right. Another tween poster who seems to fail to realize that opinions don't equal fact.

Although I'm flattered that you seem to think so highly of mine, I'll kindly ask you to step the feth off with the personal attacks.

Kanluwen wrote:
Starcraft and Warcraft both were unlicensed, unasked for attempts by Blizzard at the time to sell Games Workshop to hand over the licensing to them from SSI Interactive.

Blizzard approached GW with the finished product in hand, complete with Eldar, Tyranids, and Space Marines and thinking they'd be a shoe-in to get it from GW.

Isn't the other side of the story that they were cooperating up until the point that the game was done and then GW refused to license it leaving Blizzard high and dry? If so of course they would change some stuff and release it, otherwise it would cost them a lot of money. If Blizard are the villains and GW had a case against them why is there seemingly no evidence of litigation?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Starcraft and Warcraft both were unlicensed, unasked for attempts by Blizzard at the time to sell Games Workshop to hand over the licensing to them from SSI Interactive.

Blizzard approached GW with the finished product in hand, complete with Eldar, Tyranids, and Space Marines and thinking they'd be a shoe-in to get it from GW.

Isn't the other side of the story that they were cooperating up until the point that the game was done and then GW refused to license it leaving Blizzard high and dry? If so of course they would change some stuff and release it, otherwise it would cost them a lot of money. If Blizard are the villains and GW had a case against them why is there seemingly no evidence of litigation?

I've never heard any real hard reasoning that explains as to why GW would collaborate with a completely unknown company, when SSI Interactive's games were doing just fine.

But anyways:
Supposedly the reason there's no litigation because those were still the days of GW being in its infancy, and they didn't foresee Starcraft or Warcraft becoming a success.

Basically, it all boiled down to: "Why bankrupt a small company and screw themselves in the process with legal fees and expenses bringing it to court, only to get nothing in the process?".

Kanluwen wrote:
Starcraft and Warcraft both were unlicensed, unasked for attempts by Blizzard at the time to sell Games Workshop to hand over the licensing to them from SSI Interactive.

Blizzard approached GW with the finished product in hand, complete with Eldar, Tyranids, and Space Marines and thinking they'd be a shoe-in to get it from GW.

GW didn't, so rather than Blizzard doing something completely original they altered a few things here and there like names, basic structures of the characters etc(or are you really going to tell me that the Zerg "Overmind" isn't a flatout copy of the Hive Mind? That the Protoss being psychics with a "Path" that their race follows, and the last creations of a dying race doesn't match up the Eldar being the creations of the Old Ones? Or that the Terran Marines being ordinary criminals jacked up on stimulants and wearing heavy powered armor that they're locked into doesn't match the Space Marine fluff of that timeframe?) but otherwise left their game alone and published it.

Where do you get this from? There is NO evidence. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary(at least with Starcraft) if you actually ASK GW. GW had NO idea Starcraft was being released. They were amused at how similar the design aesthetics are, but they didn't see any grounds for litigation and were never approached to make it a 40K game, at least according to the studio and marketing departments.

Of course, you can tell me that they were lying to our faces at Gamesday '99 and 2000 and continue to spread your little conspiracy theory, but you'll still be wrong.

And if your theory IS true, why is there no records(or ANY information, really) regarding it except hearsay on wargaming sites?

Debate easily settled: Poul Anderson (you know the guy Moorcock got Law and Chaos from)>All the authors brought up in this thread.

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Lies! Dune ripped off Halo!

See now, I assumed you were joking with that comment...until I read your comments on Moorcock and Gav Thorpe.......interesting, but misguided...IMHO.

You see, Moorcock created something, yes it might have gotten samey, or boring! I have heard the same said about Frank Herbert....but these guys actually innovated, while the likes of Gav Thorpe and Ben Counter, etc, only repackage ideas that have fallen from the lips of Giants.

The novels GW churn out are generic at best, obvious story lines and obvious characters...bad guy is bad cause he's bad, good guy is good cause he's good.....its written for children, and avoids going into a characters motivations, probably for fear of turning away those who seem to wish for a "quick hit reading experience!"

It makes me laugh how absolute the GW Sci Fi setting is, for example, if a Marine turns renegade he automatically turns to Chaos...its that simple.....and his motivations? well, he's bad, what more do you want

Oh hi there I see you haven't read any GW novels written in the last 10 years.

Platuan4th wrote:
Where do you get this from? There is NO evidence. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary(at least with Starcraft) if you actually ASK GW. GW had NO idea Starcraft was being released. They were amused at how similar the design aesthetics are, but they didn't see any grounds for litigation and were never approached to make it a 40K game, at least according to the studio and marketing departments.

Except that's not how it's described by any of the licensing department if you ask them about it.

Of course, you can tell me that they were lying to our faces at Gamesday '99 and 2000 and continue to spread your little conspiracy theory, but you'll still be wrong.

Considering I was at GD Baltimore '99 and 2000 sitting in on their seminars, and never heard them say anything at all regarding Starcraft...
I'd say you're thinking of another time when they must have denied it.

And if your theory IS true, why is there no records(or ANY information, really) regarding it except hearsay on wargaming sites?

And where's any records saying it's not true? The say so of GW's marketing department and the studio?

Since when do they handle anything IP/licensing related?

I can vouch that nothing was said about Starcraft at GD 2000.

This thread makes me LAWL... This thread is the first time I have heard of anyone attempting to call Blizzard in for lifting ideas from GW...

GW fanbois standing up for the 'rights' of GW... blindly believing that GW invented Orcs, Elves, Ogres and the like...

GW lifted alot of its most recent sculpts from World of Warcraft... its sad really... then when AoW does something better GW fanbois cry about it... seriously.

@Kanluwen - a Martketing department handles most of a company's IP, with paralegals handling the documents side of things.

AvatarForm wrote:This thread makes me LAWL... This thread is the first time I have heard of anyone attempting to call Blizzard in for lifting ideas from GW...

GW fanbois standing up for the 'rights' of GW... blindly believing that GW invented Orcs, Elves, Ogres and the like...

Noone's saying they did. However, there's undeniable parallels in the way they behave in both universes that are far too similar.

GW lifted alot of its most recent sculpts from World of Warcraft... its sad really... then when AoW does something better GW fanbois cry about it... seriously.

Okay...?
There's no crying here. Get your panties out of a bunch or go back to the Blizzard forums if you don't like hearing people talking about them.

@Kanluwen - a Marketing department handles most of a company's IP, with paralegals handling the documents side of things.

Er, no. That's what a "licensing" department is for.

Damn, Starship Troopers was a good book that gave you a glimpse of what militarism would be like if it became the doctrinal view of society.

Kanluwen wrote:Noone's saying they did. However, there's undeniable parallels in the way they behave in both universes that are far too similar.

If there's anything more than superficially similar between the cultures of WoW Orcs and WHFB Orcs, I'll eat my left shoe.

Great movie BTW The bugs are what i thought tryanids looked like before I looked at WD or went on their website. Except for the big blubby thing...That was my idea of what the hivemind looked like (still is today)...

Cadichan Support wrote:Great movie BTW The bugs are what i thought tryanids looked like before I looked at WD or went on their website. Except for the big blubby thing...That was my idea of what the hivemind looked like (still is today)...

I'm assuming you've never read the book, because it's a godawful movie that deserves to be burnt in massive pyres for defiling Heinlein's name. >.>

In the end starcraft wins, who cares if people have same names or ideas, its who does it better even if unoriginal.

Myspace and facebook alike.

Take the idea and take it further ;P

There is always going to be similarity between gaming franchises. Orcs and Elves go back long before Blizzard and GW, that's the bottom line :/

Kanluwen wrote:
Noone's saying they did. However, there's undeniable parallels in the way they behave in both universes that are far too similar.
Okay...?
There's no crying here. Get your panties out of a bunch or go back to the Blizzard forums if you don't like hearing people talking about them.

Have you seriously read some of the fanboi responses on here? 'Noone'?
Blizzard forums? Dude, you are here spouting crap which you cannot back up and others can and have shut down with known fact.

Er, no. That's what a "licensing" department is for.

Sorry, but I worked in Marketing for one of the big 4 banks in Australia... we handled the IP and there was no such entity as a 'Licensing Department'... Im quite sure if GW is as profit motivated as they seem to be a Licensing Department would be something that can be shaved and you can squeeze your little paralegal fanbois into the unemployment queue and have 1 remain to handle this item.

Thus, you can deny and 'Er' all you want, you are still incorrect and a sodding fanboi.