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SaintHazard wrote:

Shrubs wrote:Most of Smartyeye's advice was fine, no reason to get so worked up.

No it wasn't. It was clearly based on "internet consensus" on how to play Tau, likely the result of poorly construct statistics charts and massive amounts of theorycrafting. When I see an opinion based on actual tabletop experience and analysis, I'll put some credence in it. Smarteye is not a Tau player, and based on your advice, I'm not sure you are either.

You're trying to undermine my credibility, please just stick to the arguments about the list and stop making this discussion about the participants. And yes, I do play Tau, I've spent yesterday evening painting my third unit of sniper drones

The thing with sniper drones and ionheads is that they take up railgun space while being mediocre at best. As for their light armour popping power, that's what suits can do cheaper.

SaintHazard wrote:

Shrubs wrote:As for the advice of 2 units of 4 pathfinders:
- 4 is a bad number, one casualty and you're rolling ld checks, on 7... go for 5
- two units at 1500 points is too much, they're easy killpoints

With Pathfinders, two casualties is more likely than one, depending on what's being shot at you. The theoretical difference between 4 and 5 Pathfinders gets everyone worked up. The practical difference is nonexistent. Again, tabletop experience trumps theorycrafting. That said, they're actually Ld8. If you don't have a Shas'ui and bonding knife on a unit that is below 50% once it takes TWO casualties (or three if you take five) then you're doing it wrong. THAT is when they become an easy KP. Nothing more frustrating than a tiny unit of 4 infantrymen who regroup every single damn turn.

Your BK on a unit of 4 only becomes useful if exactly 3 out of the 4 get killed. So that's one more reason to take 5 instead of 4, since a unit of 5 gets to use the BK at 3 or 4 casualties. On top of that, SM players can easily try to pick of one guy with the stormbolters on tanks and pods just to force the ld check. Nothing theoretical about it, you either force a ld check on a unit, or wipe it, anything else is a waste of time.

Shrubs wrote:You're trying to undermine my credibility, please just stick to the arguments about the list and stop making this discussion about the participants. And yes, I do play Tau, I've spent yesterday evening painting my third unit of sniper drones

The thing with sniper drones and ionheads is that they take up railgun space while being mediocre at best. As for their light armour popping power, that's what suits can do cheaper.

My point regarding light armor popping power is that they can do it, not that they should. Again, quit ignoring the relevant parts of my posts. I said that snipers are your best option for hunting MCs. That's their only utility. So again, against Nids, the best possible HS combination is two Railheads and three Sniper Drone Teams. That's what will most efficiently and effectively combat 1) Nid swarms and 2) Nid MCs, respectively.

Shrubs wrote:Your BK on a unit of 4 only becomes useful if exactly 3 out of the 4 get killed. So that's one more reason to take 5 instead of 4, since a unit of 5 gets to use the BK at 3 or 4 casualties. On top of that, SM players can easily try to pick of one guy with the stormbolters on tanks and pods just to force the ld check. Nothing theoretical about it, you either force a ld check on a unit, or wipe it, anything else is a waste of time.

I'm not saying 5 is a bad idea. If nothing else 5 is one more markerlight. But four will do the job just as well, cheaper. Personally, I buy my Pathfinders for their Warfish, not for their markerlights, for two reasons. In every single game I've played, the markerlights have not played a huge role. That may seem contrary to Tau tactica, but it's the truth. My Pathfinders serve more as 1) a way to get two Devilfish on the field that allow me to reroll DS scatter dice, 2) a way to provide two transports to two of my FW units, and 3) to act as a (relatively) cheap distraction for my opponent, who gets so focused on killing my Pathfinders that he ignores my Broadsides, Piranhas, and Battlesuits.

Saying that str 6 and 7 weapons can reliably pop transports over AV 10 is silly.

Also, the railgun's template has more killing power vs. MEQ when you factor in 4+ cover. The Ion cannon killing .82 marines/salvo with the Railgun's template surpassing that so long as you hit at least 3 marines.

Smarteye wrote:Saying that str 6 and 7 weapons can reliably pop transports over AV 10 is silly.

Also, the railgun's template has more killing power vs. MEQ when you factor in 4+ cover. The Ion cannon killing .82 marines/salvo with the Railgun's template surpassing that so long as you hit at least 3 marines.

No it doesn't. You're saying 4+ cover is better than 3+ armor? That's ridiculous. The template is AP4, the Marines take their armor saves against it IN ALL CASES, which is notably better than the 4+ cover save against the Ion Cannon IN SOME CASES.

As for S6 and S7 weapons, a single S7 weapon has less chance of penning 11 front armor than a single S10 shot, but you're ignoring the numbers. THREE S7 shots have a better chance of penning 11 front armor than ONE S10 shot. Want me to break down the math for you?

Behold:

ION CANNON versus RAILGUN
3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = .50, or 50% chance to pen 11 front armor
1 * 1/2 * 5/6 = .42, or a 42% chance to pen 11 front armor

And kitted out properly, an Ionhead costs 135 points... 35 points cheaper than a single Railhead at 170 points.

As for the sniper teams, no, they won't do a better job of penning 11 front armor than three Broadsides, but I NEVER SAID THAT. I said they'd more easily kill Monstrous Creatures. They CAN kill transports, and actually have about the same chance to do so as a single Ionhead, but Ionheads are much cheaper.

What they WILL do is a better job than a single Railhead.

3 SNIPER TEAMS versus RAILGUN
9 * 1/3 * 1/6 = .50, or 50% chance to pen 11 front armor
1 * 1/2 * 5/6 = .42, or a 42% chance to pen 11 front armor

I agree, Ionheads have a 8% better chance to pen. HOWEVER, Railguns get a +1 to damage rolls. which means your killing a vehicle on a 50% rather than 33%. I will take a railgun on ANY platform over an ion cannon. Any day of the week... even sundays

On your 2nd point, with the sniper drones. 3 squads are ~240 points, while a railhead is allmost 100 points cheaper with a full loadout.

After consideration, I think the ONLY use for them is to counter 'nid MC's. But there are units the Tau have access to that do the job way better for cheaper. Hell, stealth suits will put more wounds on T6 for much cheaper, and have better utility vs 'nids. And stealth suits aren't even that good.

Smarteye wrote:I agree, Ionheads have a 8% better chance to pen. HOWEVER, Railguns get a +1 to damage rolls. which means your killing a vehicle on a 50% rather than 33%. I will take a railgun on ANY platform over an ion cannon. Any day of the week... even sundays

Agree to disagree - I think Railheads are unreliable at best (a SINGLE non-twin-linked shot is just a crap shoot to begin with) and will never take them unless I'm going to be using their subordnance shot.

Smarteye wrote:On your 2nd point, with the sniper drones. 3 squads are ~240 points, while a railhead is allmost 100 points cheaper with a full loadout.

Actually, more like 70 points cheaper with a full loadout (170 points for a Railhead, 240 points for three Sniper Drone teams), but my point was that Ionheads trump both, and Broadsides trump Ionheads.

Smarteye wrote:After consideration, I think the ONLY use for them is to counter 'nid MC's. But there are units the Tau have access to that do the job way better for cheaper. Hell, stealth suits will put more wounds on T6 for much cheaper, and have better utility vs 'nids. And stealth suits aren't even that good.

AUGH. That's exactly what I've been saying for the entire goddamn thread! EXACTLY THAT. AUGH.

And those "other units" that Tau have aren't HS options. You'd be silly to waste an Elites slot just to kill MCs.

Agree to disagree - I think Railheads are unreliable at best (a SINGLE non-twin-linked shot is just a crap shoot to begin with) and will never take them unless I'm going to be using their subordnance shot.

My point is railheads>ionheads for killing infantry unless they don't have cover (not very likely).

But I digress, agree to disagree.

SaintHazard wrote:Can't remember the last time I saw EMP grenades on FW.

If you're putting grenades on your FW, you may be running your FW wrong. First, I said they should never leave their transports (as soon as they do, they're basically a free KP), and second, they should never be anywhere near close combat.

I alway try to take a set of 7FW w/carbines and EMP grenades, it's my most effective DP killer. They have also managed to kill to LR w them. Nobody ever expects them.

The point of suggesting them is as a DP killer. The OP seems to be saying that his opponent has a regular tactic of droppong the pod in the middle of his lines and not being able to deal with it without using his AT weapons to get rid of them. It's an unusual tactic that has the novelty of not being seen very often. For what 90 odd points? Okay its not the cost of the DP but to get rid of that locator beacon and weapons, it's well worth it.

Cheers

Andrew

PS Hammerheads are BS 4 not 3. your calcs are wrong, 65% and 55% respectively.

This is the Space Marine player his is trying to kill, hi...

NamTaey wrote:This is the Space Marine player his is trying to kill, hi...

Well hello there! Prepare to feel the true wrath of T'au once we're done with your buddy.

Yeah I just finished reading all of this ... ARGH!
hahahaha
Yah, I just thought I would update my army list.

1 Drop Pod- 10 Space Marines with Plasma Gun + Chainsword and boltpistol
1 Rhino- 10 Space marines- missile launcher- falmer

2x Pradators- one lascannon, and one with storm bolter

1x Landspeeder- just a heavy bolter

1x Assault Squad

Captain with command squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yah, I hate the Tau
that is all

Ionheads are terrible against anything other than Monstrous Creatures. Tau already have an abundance of S7 shots with missile pods everywhere for popping light armor, the Ionhead just adds redundancy and takes away one of your few platforms for a railgun.

Submunition shot *is* as effective as an Ion head if it gets three under it's template with cover:

Ionhead /w cover: 3*.66= 1.98 hits *.84= 1.66 wounds *.5= .83 dead marines
Submuniton /3 under template: 3*.84= 2.52 wounds *.33= .83 dead marines

No cover?

Ionhead: 1.66 dead marines

Submunition w/4: 1.1 dead marines, w/5: 1.36 dead marines, w/6: 1.66 dead marines.

And as already noted, while an Ion head may have a better
chance of penning AV 11, Railguns are AP 1 and kill things dead. Also, AV 11 is an odd number to aim for, considering AV 12 is pretty much the standard for light armor.

Ionheads also lose the versatility of the railgun which can deal with any armor (including the Monolith which gives a lot of army fits) and at the same time do viscious anti-horde duty with it's pie plate.

Have you played against Blood Angels? Cover save followed by Feel No Pain makes the Ionhead a dejected MBT, and you don't have the punch to Instant death troublesome units like Tyranid Warriors and Nobs.

Go with a Railgun on your Hammerheads, they are the supierior choice in virtually every situation

Except that, again, they're not. First of all, you never even bothered to factor in scatter for that marker, so I guess submunition is better if your Tau are all BS12 (oh wait, that's not possible.) Second, we're not playing against an army with AV 12 anywhere in its list (no Dreads), and 11 is the front armor of a Rhino (or Razorback, or Whirlwind) which is what you'll see the most of if you play against Marines. Third, we're not playing against Necrons. Fourth, we're not playing against a horde army. Fifth, we're not playing against Blood Angels. His Captain w/ Command Squad probably has FNP, but nothing else in his army does. And railguns most certainly are not the better choice "in most situations." Again, like I said, they're unreliable at best and terrible at worst.

Avoid Railheads like the plague against Space Marines. Use Broadsides for penning heavy armor, that's what they're designed for... and once you go up against a Horde type army (IG, Orks, Nids) then you can start running some Railheads.

Oh, and yes, Missile Pods are S7, but clock in at a lukewarm AP4, which is no better than a burst cannon against Marines (2 S7AP4 shots have roughly the same chance to kill a Marine as 3 S5AP5 shots). Their only advantage is their 36" range.

I think the Ionheads with one Broadside makes sense. The Ion is S7 AP3. The SubRail is S6 AP4 plus scatter. Use the Broadside to hit armor and Ions for marines. I can also run 1-Ionhead 1-Railhead and 1-Broad to be more armor focused. I have only one Broad. One more Broad would be nice to open options up.

mcyeatman wrote:I think the Ionheads with one Broadside makes sense. The Ion is S7 AP3. The SubRail is S6 AP4 plus scatter. Use the Broadside to hit armor and Ions for marines. I can also run 1-Ionhead 1-Railhead and 1-Broad to be more armor focused. I have only one Broad. One more Broad would be nice to open options up.

Entirely correct.

I used to run one Ionhead, one Railhead, for the purposes of versatility. You may find more success with one or the other, but personally I found that my Ionhead was super killy (against CSM, not SM, but basically the same principles apply) whereas my Railhead failed me at every turn. Broadsides do a better job at killing armor, Ionheads do a better job at killing Marines... but now I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Really, in the end, it all comes down to "get the models, put them down on a table and see how they perform."

Your list may end up radically different from mine, and there's nothing wrong with that. Trust your experience before you trust Internet whackos!

SaintHazard wrote:Except that, again, they're not. First of all, you never even bothered to factor in scatter for that marker, so I guess submunition is better if your Tau are all BS12 (oh wait, that's not possible.) Second, we're not playing against an army with AV 12 anywhere in its list (no Dreads), and 11 is the front armor of a Rhino (or Razorback, or Whirlwind) which is what you'll see the most of if you play against Marines. Third, we're not playing against Necrons. Fourth, we're not playing against a horde army. Fifth, we're not playing against Blood Angels. His Captain w/ Command Squad probably has FNP, but nothing else in his army does. And railguns most certainly are not the better choice "in most situations." Again, like I said, they're unreliable at best and terrible at worst.

Avoid Railheads like the plague against Space Marines. Use Broadsides for penning heavy armor, that's what they're designed for... and once you go up against a Horde type army (IG, Orks, Nids) then you can start running some Railheads.

Oh, and yes, Missile Pods are S7, but clock in at a lukewarm AP4, which is no better than a burst cannon against Marines (2 S7AP4 shots have roughly the same chance to kill a Marine as 3 S5AP5 shots). Their only advantage is their 36" range.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? You have a 33% chance for a direct hit. Centered on a squad, you'll generally need to scatter further than 3" to not clip. The average of 2d6 is 7, at BS 4, even if you don't get a direct hit, on average dice you'll still clip some models. You have a pretty good damn chance of getting at least 3 models under the template.

2nd: Drop pod: AV 12. 2x Predator: AV 13. 1x Rhino: AV 11. So there are three AV 12+ vehicles, and one AV 11 vehicle. Good call.

3rd, 4th, and 5th: It may come to pass that he wants to expand playing his Tau against more than just one person, and shouldn't be setup for failure because his first opponent was Marines.

AP 4 has the same effect killing light vehicles as AP 3 does: none. Which was the use I discussed them in I believe...

While I agree Broadsides are better at popping vehicles than Railheads, you only have a limited number of slots to get them in, every slot that can take a railgun, should take a railgun. Missile Pods and Plasma rifles on crisis suits will do everything a Ionhead can do, except better, but they don't have anything that can replace what the solid slug and submunition blast of the Railhead does.

Well for starters, there's exactly zero reason to pop a drop pod. In an objective mission, you've already got half of their VP, there's very little point in wasting a shot to to try and get the second half. There's nothing his storm bolter can actually do to you as long as you're playing your Tau properly (Crisis Suits miles away upfield, Fire Warriors in transports, and Broadsides in cover, with shield drones). So the AV12 on a drop pod is immaterial. Furthermore, the AV13 isn't what I'm advocating using the Ionheads for, because that'd be moronic. That's what the Broadsides are for. And you forgot to factor in the AV10 Land Speeder. So, to recap, the Marine player's got one AV10, one AV11, and two AV13 vehicles. Sounds like a job for Ionheads with a sixty inch range. Missile Pods cannot pop AV11 turn 1. You want those Marines footslogging across the board, and if you wait for his Rhinos to get within Missile Pod range to do so, you'll be disappointed.

And you can take three Broadsides in a single slot. Your "MOAR RAILGUNS" strategy isn't best met by adding Railheads. Add more Broadsides for that effect.

But the bottom line is that once the armor is gone, railguns are dead weight. Don't rely on them - too many Tau players make that mistake, then end up taking S10AP1 potshots at infantry that do exactly nothing 75% of the time.

SaintHazard wrote:Well for starters, there's exactly zero reason to pop a drop pod. In a KP mission, they don't give a KP, since they're dedicated transports, and in any other mission, you've already got half of their VP, there's very little point in wasting a shot to to try and get the second half. There's nothing his storm bolter can actually do to you as long as you're playing your Tau properly (Crisis Suits miles away upfield, Fire Warriors in transports, and Broadsides in cover, with shield drones). So the AV12 on a drop pod is immaterial.

I don't know which edition you're playing, but dedicated transports do give a KP, and VP don't exist anymore except in certain tournaments. You may also want to pop it to get rid of the cover it provides to it's squad...

Furthermore, the AV13 isn't what I'm advocating using the Ionheads for, because that'd be moronic. That's what the Broadsides are for. And you forgot to factor in the AV10 Land Speeder. So, to recap, the Marine player's got one AV10, one AV11, and two AV13 vehicles. Sounds like a job for Ionheads with a sixty inch range. Missile Pods cannot pop AV11 turn 1. You want those Marines footslogging across the board, and if you wait for his Rhinos to get within Missile Pod range to do so, you'll be disappointed.

Hrm, so he deploys 12" forward, I deploy 6" forward on a 48" board. Either on my turn I jump forward 6", which puts him 36" away, or he drives forward 12", in which case he's closer than 36". At this point, I'm going to have to ask you if you've ever played Tau. 36" range plus 6" move is a 42" range. The times ranges over 48" are a factor in a game can be counted on one hand.

And you can take three Broadsides in a single slot. Your "MOAR RAILGUNS" strategy isn't best met by adding Railheads. Add more Broadsides for that effect.

Almost every marine variant army, several kinds of Ork Armies, Tyranids, and Chaos Daemons can be in assault on turn 2. Broadsides in assault can not shoot, hammerheads will need 6's to be hit and can fly out and shoot next turn.

But the bottom line is that once the armor is gone, railguns are dead weight. Don't rely on them - too many Tau players make that mistake, then end up taking S10AP1 potshots at infantry that do exactly nothing 75% of the time.

Or, you know, firing the large blast str 6 ap4 submunition shot. It's actually the other way around, broadsides roles diminshes when the armor is gone.

Kroot Loops wrote:I don't know which edition you're playing, but dedicated transports do give a KP, and VP don't exist anymore except in certain tournaments. You may also want to pop it to get rid of the cover it provides to it's squad...

Note the edit. And VP are used when objectives are tied.

Kroot Loops wrote:Hrm, so he deploys 12" forward, I deploy 6" forward on a 48" board. Either on my turn I jump forward 6", which puts him 36" away, or he drives forward 12", in which case he's closer than 36". At this point, I'm going to have to ask you if you've ever played Tau. 36" range plus 6" move is a 42" range. The times ranges over 48" are a factor in a game can be counted on one hand.

So your entire strategy revolves around him deploying exactly the way you want? Anyone who's played against Tau understands that Missile Pods have a 36" range, and if they're your entire anti-transport platform, they'll simply move to counter it. It's not hard to do. Not every game is going to see your opponent deploying his full 12". A 60" range is a godsend in this situation.

Kroot Loops wrote:Almost every marine variant army, several kinds of Ork Armies, Tyranids, and Chaos Daemons can be in assault on turn 2. Broadsides in assault can not shoot, hammerheads will need 6's to be hit and can fly out and shoot next turn.

And again, if you're doing it right, they won't have the means to get into assault turn 2. Broadsides more reliably pop his transports and bog him down midfield where he's fodder for your Crisis Suits, and Daemons, well. Tau are a whole different animal played against Daemons. Broadsides are literally 100% useless there, and Railheads aren't far behind. So that's a different thread altogether.

Kroot Loops wrote:Or, you know, firing the large blast str 6 ap4 submunition shot. It's actually the other way around, broadsides roles diminshes when the armor is gone.

Which, again, does very little against power armor, and virtually nothing against Terminator armor. Again, your railguns, regardless of what they're mounted on, are dead weight against T4 and T5 models with 2+ and 3+ armor saves.

SaintHazard wrote: Note the edit. And VP are used when objectives are tied.

No their not

So your entire strategy revolves around him deploying exactly the way you want? Anyone who's played against Tau understands that Missile Pods have a 36" range, and if they're your entire anti-transport platform, they'll simply move to counter it. It's not hard to do. Not every game is going to see your opponent deploying his full 12". A 60" range is a godsend in this situation.

at midfield one crisis suit can cover almost the entire board. Three teams can cover the whole board, it doesn't matter where he deploys. If he deploys at his back edge, that's a win for me, in turn one he'll only reach his deployment line, so I'll pop him in turn 2 in the same spot or further back than I would have in turn 1. win/win. Now if we play a mission using the short edges of the board as a deployment zone, then the 60" range would be a factor. In all three basic deployments, it's not a factor. It's why I'm not saying 'Oh yeah? Well railguns have a *72"* range so they trump your 60" range...' because it's a non-factor.

And again, if you're doing it right, they won't have the means to get into assault turn 2. Broadsides more reliably pop his transports and bog him down midfield where he's fodder for your Crisis Suits, and Daemons, well. Tau are a whole different animal played against Daemons. Broadsides are literally 100% useless there, and Railheads aren't far behind. So that's a different thread altogether.

Who's talking about transports? all drop pod army, thunderwolf cavalry with stormshields, space wolf scouts or snikrot coming off the back table edge, all jump pack BA army, Vanguard Vets or Stormboyz /w Volkstraag, Genestealer Shock, Trygon tunnels&Mawloc attack, all of these are ways to get the assaults in on turn 2 and have nothing to do with vehicles.

Which, again, does very little against power armor, and virtually nothing against Terminator armor. Again, your railguns, regardless of what they're mounted on, are dead weight against T4 and T5 models with 2+ and 3+ armor saves.

Apparently you don't believe in math, I've already shown how the submunition round compares very favorably against the Ion cannon. Railgun solid sugs will also do much better against 2+ saves than the Ion head, which is only AP 3.


Edit: And dropping the large blast on the deepstriking clusters of daemons is absolutely one of the best things you can do

Kroot Loops wrote:No their not.

I dunno what kind of tournaments you've been playing in, but every one around here goes to VP when objectives or KP are tied.

Kroot Loops wrote:at midfield one crisis suit can cover almost the entire board. Three teams can cover the whole board, it doesn't matter where he deploys. If he deploys at his back edge, that's a win for me, in turn one he'll only reach his deployment line, so I'll pop him in turn 2 in the same spot or further back than I would have in turn 1. win/win. Now if we play a mission using the short edges of the board as a deployment zone, then the 60" range would be a factor. In all three basic deployments, it's not a factor. It's why I'm not saying 'Oh yeah? Well railguns have a *72"* range so they trump your 60" range...' because it's a non-factor.

So you play on a board that's what, 48" by 48" apparently? If you deploy your Crisis Suits 6" up, all he has to do is deploy in the corner and bam, out of range. Remember, the board is 72" across. That's twice a Crisis Suit's maximum range, but only 12" more than an Ionhead's max range.

Kroot Loops wrote:Who's talking about transports? all drop pod army, thunderwolf cavalry with stormshields, space wolf scouts or snikrot coming off the back table edge, all jump pack BA army, Vanguard Vets or Stormboyz /w Volkstraag, Genestealer Shock, Trygon tunnels&Mawloc attack, all of these are ways to get the assaults in on turn 2 and have nothing to do with vehicles.

And none of those armies are what we're playing here. Again, OP asked for help against THIS ARMY, and THIS ARMY only. He didn't ask for an all-comers list, nor did he ask how to beat BA, Nids, or SW. And any Ork player who actually fields Stormboyz with a straight face might be an idiot.

Kroot Loops wrote:Apparently you don't believe in math, I've already shown how the submunition round compares very favorably against the Ion cannon. Railgun solid sugs will also do much better against 2+ saves than the Ion head, which is only AP 3.

And your math is horribly flawed, as I pointed out. You didn't even bother to factor in the chances of a large pie plate missing or scattering and hitting one or two models. So I'm ignoring it.

Kroot Loops wrote:Edit: And dropping the large blast on the deepstriking clusters of daemons is absolutely one of the best things you can do

As a Daemons player, I agree, Railheads are slightly more useful than Ionheads when you're looking at nothing but invuln saves, and I'm not arguing otherwise, but even that pie plate on top of models with 4+ and 5+ invuln save more often than not just pisses those little buggers off. Unfortunately, Tau simply don't have a single good strategy that counters Daemons. The best they can do is focus fire and hope the Daemons player doesn't roll 5s and 6s for reserve on turn 2.

Read the rule book Saint Hazard.

How local groups or some tourneys run their events DOES NOT change the core rule book. VP are an optional rule. Draws are possible.

You know what I hate about tau threads? The people who are self proclaimed tau experts have that whole elite "if you don't actually play them as your primary or only army, then your advice is automatically invalid" Then they start passing the cool aid around recommending 2nd tier units like stealth teams, ion heads, sniper drones etc... the truly shameless recommend running vespids, special characters, and ethereals.

Can you make these suboptimal units work? Yes you can. But don't go passing advice on to a newer player to use difficult to get the most out of units. If a player can't beat space marines, then he is obviously new, or facing a very good SM player. Taking the harder to work with units is not what he needs.

Want an effective tau army that doesn't require flawless play and can take on all comers? (including marines) Take a cheap HQ suit with the plasma and missiles. Take two large units of kroot with hounds (assault buffer and DP denial). a couple of rail heads and/or broadsides. Your minimum fire warrior team. As many plasma missile pod suites as you can fit in. 1 unit of pathfinders (give up ride for firewarriors) If you can't fit the pathfinders, warriors get their own devilfish.

If points allow, 2 strong piranha units with fusion blasters for transport popping and blocking. (2x so you can stop somebody even if they ram through and destroy... you can take the hit on the one that they didn't ram, then they are forced to stop... yea for squadron rules.)

It is a simple effective army that plays to taus strengths and is easy to play. All of the units are playable in other variations, so their isn't any specialized units that sit in the box if you aren't running that list.

BTW, I often field stormboyz. And I do it with a straight face. Are you calling me an idiot? They are faster than a regular boy (who sucks so hard I don't know why other people still run them) and you can take quite a few jump pack guys that WILL be in combat against most armies turn 2. Will they kill what they assault? Not always, but what they assaulted will be damaged and possibly engaged. Which means the rest of the army is safer from shooting.

So you're spouting more "internet list" terms at me?

Come on dude. OP is not an idiot. When I said it all comes down to tabletop experience, I meant it.

Vespids are awful, Shadowsun is useless, Farsight is nothing more than way to get MOAR CRISIS SUITS onto the field in high point value games, Ethereals are awful, and Stealthsuits do what Crisis Suits do at 1.5x the price and less effectively.

But Ionheads are not second-tier units against Power Armor.

Again, do you play Tau? The way I see it, if you don't play Tau, your opinion doesn't mean jack gak.

There are two different games played by 40k "players." One involves a lot of internet WAAARGARBL (that, unfortunately, loves to perpetuate itself via threads like this), badly constructed statistics tables, and a lot of people spouting a lot of crap.

The other takes place on a tabletop.

I play the second game. And you know what's funny? The moment I actually take someone who plays the first game and challenge them to an actual game on the damn tabletop, their balls shrink and they fade into the background.

If you don't play Tau, you have no moral leg to stand on giving advice on playing Tau. You can regurgitate as much internet bs as you want, but it's meaningless if you've never actually set Tau minatures on a tabletop and played.

Well, Sainthazard has been saying the same thing over and over again in this thread. Escentially, for MEQ's he likes the ionhead because of AP3 and the possibility of taking out transports. We get it dude, thats why you like them.

However,
OTHER people prefer Railheads because of various and sundry reasons. Quit being so obtuse with your opinions, you really don't need to turn into the resident elitist now that whats her name has been forced to be turned down.

In other words, WE like the Railhead for all situations. YOU like the Ionhead vs. MEQ. We get it.

Smarteye wrote:Well, Sainthazard has been saying the same thing over and over again in this thread. Escentially, for MEQ's he likes the ionhead because of AP3 and the possibility of taking out transports. We get it dude, thats why you like them.

However,
OTHER people prefer Railheads because of various and sundry reasons. Quit being so obtuse with your opinions, you really don't need to turn into the resident elitist now that whats her name has been forced to be turned down.

In other words, WE like the Railhead for all situations. YOU like the Ionhead vs. MEQ. We get it.

You get it.

I'm not sure anyone else does.

"I prefer railheads to ionheads" is just fine.

"Ionheads are terrible" is just a false statement.

Well, at the risk of derailing the current flamebattle we have going:

Saint, what is your opinion on stealth suits? I like them vs. Orks, as I can cram 18 shots on a squad. They can vape allmost an entire unit of boyz with markerlight support.

They are pretty expensive though, being the same cost as a team on MP/PR suits.

In my opinion, Stealthsuits take up a valuable Elites slot that needs to go to more Crisis Suits (the workhorse of Tau armies). Anything Stealthsuits can do, Crisis Suits can typically do better and, in most cases, cheaper. For example, some people like to use Stealthsuits to DS in and fusion blast the living crap out of the rear armor of a tank. However, this requires 3 Stealthsuits (the minimum), and only one of them can take a fusion blaster. The rest have burst cannons, which can still pen most rear armor, but means that against vehicles like Land Raiders and Monoliths, they only have one functional shot. On the other hand, a Crisis Suit Shas'el with a TL fusion blaster, a burst cannon, and a HW MT can do the same thing, minus three S5 shots, be virtually guaranteed to hit (BS4, twin-linked) and costs around 85 points - a fraction of the cost of a full Stealthsuit team. Or, a single Crisis Suit can do the same thing, even cheaper, but I like to keep my Elites slots free for more beefed up Crisis Suits. That's just one example, too. Nigh anything a Stealthsuit team can pull off can be done by Crisis Suits at much lower cost, or more effectively, or both.

Your example: Replace those 18 shots with three Crisis Suits with TL flamers. 18 shots against Orks is nice, but three TL templates makes just about any horde evaporate. Or, a single flamer and a burst cannon, with MT. Nine shots and three non-TL templates.

My point is, there are better options for just about any job.

I Prefer to List tailor... Because that IS SOOOOOO Much better than internet lists. Please.

Ion heads aren't good against all comers. They are decent but not great against meqs. I actually like them against big bugs better than I like them against meqs. That being said, I won't run them. They aren't good enough against meqs to change the list, and nids is just one army that isn't as common as it should be. Losing out on the alt fire of the rail head means you have issues with massed infantry, which a number of lists bring (horde nids and guard come to mind, as does the popular yet bad ork hordes)

The reason I said they are only decent against Meqs? 3 shots kills usually a marine a turn (cover assumed), at best 3. Not exactly exciting. Good chance of killing or damaging a rhino, razor or speeder, but that isn't exactly hard. I mean, look at all the S7 that tau can already get (missile pods). Why bother with ion heads? For AP 3? torrent of fire and plasma kills marines better than 3 shots of AP3.

A unit that is only good against a small range of opponents by definition, is tier 2.

Do I currently own a tau list? No, but I've played a fair number of games with them, in 4th and 5th ed. I've also played a BUNCH more games against them. When I've faced ion heads they have done nearly jack. When I've used them, they did ok, but not great compared to railheads. Combined I've probably played 40 games either with or against tau. (2/3 against tau) If that isn't enough experience to form an informed opinion, I don't know what is.

That's certainly enough for me.

All I have to say is, if Ionheads are terrible at killing MEqs, why do mine perform so much better than my Railheads' subordnance (which manages to kill between zero and one Marine a turn, even when they manage to hit six or seven).

My experience with Railheads has been mediocre at best. My experience with Ionheads has been spectacular.

I think the lack of a pie plate reduces fear of scattering onto your own troops, or the 'head itself (though a S3 hit will do exactly nothing if it scatters back onto you, and even a direct hit on front armor is worthless), which encourages you to push an Ionhead forward, actually giving you 9 shots total with the two burst cannons.

In any case, my experience can be distilled down to "Ionheads good, Railheads meh".

SaintHazard wrote:That's certainly enough for me.

All I have to say is, if Ionheads are terrible at killing MEqs, why do mine perform so much better than my Railheads' subordnance (which manages to kill between zero and one Marine a turn, even when they manage to hit six or seven).

My experience with Railheads has been mediocre at best. My experience with Ionheads has been spectacular.

I think the lack of a pie plate reduces fear of scattering onto your own troops, or the 'head itself (though a S3 hit will do exactly nothing if it scatters back onto you, and even a direct hit on front armor is worthless), which encourages you to push an Ionhead forward, actually giving you 9 shots total with the two burst cannons.

In any case, my experience can be distilled down to "Ionheads good, Railheads meh".

It's somewhat amusing that you advocate list tailoring, but throw in victory points which are only used in tournaments and are not a factor in BRB games.

You just killed a mathmatician somewhere in the world. If you click your heels together and chant I believe in math, you might bring them back to life.

You just don't get it. An Ion head shooting into cover kills:
.83 marines
.83 Orks
.83 Genestealers
.83 Gretchin
.26 Terminators

In the open?
1.66 marines
1.66 Orks
1.66 Genestealers
1.66 Gretchin
.26 terminators

Even in your most Ideal conditions (MEQs in the open) you're killing 1-2 Marines per turn. That's hardly devestating.

Submunition covering three in cover:
.83 marines
1.26 Orks
1.26 Genestealers
1.26 Gretchin
.4 Terminators

in the open:
.83 marines
2.5 Orks
2.5 Genestealers
2.5 gretchin
.4 Terminators

In the most ideal condition for the submunition, hitting 12 clustered marines?
3.3 dead. Still not devestating, but better than the Ion cannon.