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I’m struggling to do well against my buddy’s Space Marines. He uses a drop pod on the first turn to create a distraction and or threat for my Tau group.

Any suggestions for reducing or negating his drop pod success?

Thanks!

Well post up a list of what you got in your tau army.

1 - Commander Shas'el
1 - XV8 Shas'Vre Bodyguard
3 - Shas'Ui XV8 Battlesuits
2 – 7 member fire warrior squads
6 – Pathfinders w/ Develfish
1 - XV88 Shas'Ui
2 - Sniper Drone Teams
2 - Hammerhead Gunship

A unit of suits w/ PR, FB, and MT are good vs. marines in general. This unit will most likely neuter a dread or unit of power armor guys no problem. If their still alive, charge your suits into them.
Nothing will surprise an opponent more than Tau charging into cc.

What are the Hammerheads armed with? Ion cannons or Railguns?

Ion cannons are spectacular at cutting down Marines. I run two Ionheads normally.

So are Plasma Rifles, arm your Battlesuits with them.

I'm guessing that his podding antics are basically forcing you to shoot at potential CC threats, right? So make it so that you can neutralize those threats more easily with fewer models, so the rest can focus on the battle proper. That means turning your... everything into MEq-killers.

And personally, I'm not a fan of Sniper Drone teams. Too expensive for what little they do. Great against Monstrous Creatures, mediocre against everything else - and Marines do not have MCs.

mcyeatman wrote:1 - Commander Shas'el
1 - XV8 Shas'Vre Bodyguard
3 - Shas'Ui XV8 Battlesuits
2 – 7 member fire warrior squads
6 – Pathfinders w/ Develfish
1 - XV88 Shas'Ui
2 - Sniper Drone Teams
2 - Hammerhead Gunship

Bodyguards are a waste of points, as your paying extra for stats that will have no bearing on the game.

You need transports for those Fire Warriors.

Need more than one XV-88 to be an effective anything-killer. 2 at a minimum.

Sniper Drone teams are terrible.

Hammerheads are good, just make sure you give them Railguns and Disruption pods.

Uh, Smarteye? Do you play Tau?

Smarteye wrote:Bodyguards are a waste of points, as your paying extra for stats that will have no bearing on the game.

Not necessarily. There is no increase in stats (IIRC), just the ability to take wargear, which effectively lets you give them both Multi-Trackers (HW MTs) and Targeting Arrays, increasing their BS by one. Increased BS in a shooty army has no bearing on the game, you say? I beg to differ. And that's one less markerlight counter you have to spend on them (thus one less you have to waste on the Commander).

Smarteye wrote:You need transports for those Fire Warriors.

Ideally he'll be using the Pathfinder Devilfish for the FW.

Smarteye wrote:Need more than one XV-88 to be an effective anything-killer. 2 at a minimum.

Again, not necessarily. One BS4 TL railgun shot will do some serious damage. I run a unit of 2 and regularly split their fire (HW Target Lock on the team leader).

Smarteye wrote:Sniper Drone teams are terrible.

Except in the context for which they were designed - killing MCs and light vehicles. As anti-infantry weapons, they can take down MEqs somewhat reliably, but only three shots isn't really going to do much to a unit of MEqs. They'll pass their pinning tests, and probably even pass the morale check IF you manage to kill three, out of a unit of 10. In THIS CONTEXT, they're not that great. They do have their uses, though. As I said before.

Smarteye wrote:Hammerheads are good, just make sure you give them Railguns and Disruption pods.

Dispods, yes. Railguns, HELL NO, against MEqs railheads are next to useless. Take the cheaper and more effective Ion Cannons. Three S7 AP3 shots is much better than 1 S10 AP1 shot (NOT twin-linked) or a S6 AP4 large blast marker.

Try not to give advice that contradicts what actual Tau players are saying.

Good feedback. I have enough other units to replace the Sniper Drones. I can add more FW and Kroot to soak up the marine assault.

What about adding an Ethereal to increase the FWs BS and make them Fearless?

There are very few units in the Tau codex that can be described as completely and utterly useless.

Ethereals are one.

I have never, ever, ever seen Aun'va or a regular Ethereal taken in a serious Tau list. Ethereals themselves are liabilities at best, and if you want to increase the BS of FW, use markerlights to do it. Really, though, your FW should never leave their Devilfish unless they absolutely have to.

I agree with most of what SAintHazard has said, except in regards to the Dfish, I like to put my FW in a position where they are shooting, or they are doing fish of furry.

Thanks for the feedback!

mcyeatman wrote:Thanks for the feedback!

Glad to help. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to PM me (or just ask them here). My Tau are my primary army, and I'm always experimenting with new lists and new ways to run units against various types of opponents.

Not necessarily. There is no increase in stats (IIRC), just the ability to take wargear, which effectively lets you give them both Multi-Trackers (HW MTs) and Targeting Arrays, increasing their BS by one. Increased BS in a shooty army has no bearing on the game, you say? I beg to differ. And that's one less markerlight counter you have to spend on them (thus one less you have to waste on the Commander).

IIRC they get a pip in WS and LD, with a baseline increase of ~10 pts/model. Just for the ability to take HW and special issue items. If I were him, I'd save my points.

Ideally he'll be using the Pathfinder Devilfish for the FW

He has more than one FW squad.

Again, not necessarily. One BS4 TL railgun shot will do some serious damage. I run a unit of 2 and regularly split their fire (HW Target Lock on the team leader).

Bolded for effect, you need at least a squad of 2 to be effective. Good choice on the HWTL though, XV-88's need advanced stabilization systems as a primary.

Except in the context for which they were designed - killing MCs and light vehicles. As anti-infantry weapons, they can take down MEqs somewhat reliably, but only three shots isn't really going to do much to a unit of MEqs. They'll pass their pinning tests, and probably even pass the morale check IF you manage to kill three, out of a unit of 10. In THIS CONTEXT, they're not that great. They do have their uses, though. As I said before.

Your welcome to your opinion, even if it runs contrary to every tactics article i've ever read on the subject. If you want a unit that will pay a ridiculous amount of points for 3 s6 ap3 shots then this unit does the job splendidly. I'd use those points elsewhere.

Dispods, yes. Railguns, HELL NO, against MEqs railheads are next to useless. Take the cheaper and more effective Ion Cannons. Three S7 AP3 shots is much better than 1 S10 AP1 shot (NOT twin-linked) or a S6 AP4 large blast marker.

Railguns in general have more utility, thats why railheads make it into tourney lists over ionheads. Personally I never min-max against the opponent I'm facing next, you can't do that when it matters anywhay. Train how you fight imo.

Smarteye wrote:IIRC they get a pip in WS and LD, with a baseline increase of ~10 pts/model. Just for the ability to take HW and special issue items. If I were him, I'd save my points.

The cardinal rule of Tau is to fill up with Crisis Suits. A bodyguard means two more Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits that can run at base BS4. I call that a good deal. To balance out their expense, give them the cheaper weapons, like burst cannons - put the plasma rifles on your regular Crisis Suits.

Smarteye wrote:He has more than one FW squad.

So he should run two units of Pathfinders. Two units of four does well, in my experience.

Smarteye wrote:Bolded for effect, you need at least a squad of 2 to be effective. Good choice on the HWTL though, XV-88's need advanced stabilization systems as a primary.

But as I said, I always split their fire. One does the job for minimal points cost. He can add a second if he needs more vehicle killing power. The Ionheads will pop transports nicely, and anything heavier can be taken care of with fusion blasters on Piranhas (or Crisis Suits, though I don't recommend that approach) or his single Broadside.

Smarteye wrote:Your welcome to your opinion, even if it runs contrary to every tactics article i've ever read on the subject. If you want a unit that will pay a ridiculous amount of points for 3 s6 ap3 shots then this unit does the job splendidly. I'd use those points elsewhere.

Against Space Marines, yes.

Were this list made to combat Nids, I'd gladly take Snipers over Broadsides to combat MCs, and Railheads over Ionheads to combat everything else.

But this is an MEq-killer list. So I recommended getting rid of the snipers.

Smarteye wrote:Railguns in general have more utility, thats why railheads make it into tourney lists over ionheads. Personally I never min-max against the opponent I'm facing next, you can't do that when it matters anywhay. Train how you fight imo.

He's asking how to combat Space Marines, not make an all-comers list.

The cardinal rule of Tau is to fill up with Crisis Suits. A bodyguard means two more Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits that can run at base BS4. I call that a good deal. To balance out their expense, give them the cheaper weapons, like burst cannons - put the plasma rifles on your regular Crisis Suits.

I agree, however there is a point limit. Theres only so many suits you can throw in before you start shirking other must haves like 2x troops, 'heads, and XV-88's

So he should run two units of Pathfinders. Two units of four does well, in my experience.

Good point.

But as I said, I always split their fire. One does the job for minimal points cost. He can add a second if he needs more vehicle killing power. The Ionheads will pop transports nicely, and anything heavier can be taken care of with fusion blasters on Piranhas (or Crisis Suits, though I don't recommend that approach) or his single Broadside.

True, however railguns are much more reliable at transport and MBT killing, and the ionhead is probably the worst think tau can shoot at a transport to try to kill it. Especially if the reason your bringing an ionhead is to kill MEQ's.

Against Space Marines, yes.

Were this list made to combat Nids, I'd gladly take Snipers over Broadsides to combat MCs, and Railheads over Ionheads to combat everything else.

But this is an MEq-killer list. So I recommended getting rid of the snipers.

Ok, I disagree but your welcome to your opinion. Sniper drones imo would have a use if they were a bit cheaper, but I don't see a use for them for their points cost. ever

He's asking how to combat Space Marines, not make an all-comers list.

Touche. My personal opinion is to never min-max, I feel it wont help anyone learn an army or how to be a better player. However I know people that think differently.

Smarteye wrote:I agree, however there is a point limit. Theres only so many suits you can throw in before you start shirking other must haves like 2x troops, 'heads, and XV-88's

This is very true, which is why I run a 1500 tournament list with a total of 7 Crisis Suits (one unit of 3 and two of 2), not including my Commander, and no bodyguard... but at higher point levels, the limiting factor becomes not how many points you can spend but how many slots you can fill with Crisis Suits. Commanders and their bodyguard simply allow an extra four total Crisis Suits (or nine if you take Farsight) beyond what your Elites slots allow.

Smarteye wrote:True, however railguns are much more reliable at transport and MBT killing, and the ionhead is probably the worst think tau can shoot at a transport to try to kill it. Especially if the reason your bringing an ionhead is to kill MEQ's.

Actually, they're not. They're more likely to pen, yes, but they're only a single shot. I've broken it down statistically (and if I can find the table I'll post it) but the bottom line is that three S7 shots will more reliably pop a transport with 11 front armor than one S10 shot.

Smarteye wrote:Ok, I disagree but your welcome to your opinion. Sniper drones imo would have a use if they were a bit cheaper, but I don't see a use for them for their points cost. ever

Well, considering that for the same points you pay for three S10 AP1 shots (Broadsides), you can instead get nine S6 AP3 shots... well, against Monstrous Creatures, nine S6 AP3 shots will more reliably kill MCs than three S10 AP1 shots, and can split their fire just as readily, since you're running three teams of snipers at that cost. Factor in markerlights and things like lower drone BS and cover become non-issues. Again, statistically speaking, for the points three sniper teams is a safer bet against Tyranids than three Broadsides.

Smarteye wrote:Touche. My personal opinion is to never min-max, I feel it wont help anyone learn an army or how to be a better player. However I know people that think differently.

I personally try not to list-tailor too much, but again, OP is asking for a list that's effective against Marines, so.

What are you thoughts on shield drones for the Crisis? I've been running with TA, MT(hw), DC(hw) and one shield drone. I like the invulnerable and the extra wound you get.


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You get one extra wound, and an invuln save, but you also increase the unit's footprint (making it harder to JSJ, which is what Crisis Suits are made for), and increase the probability of having to take a leadership check every turn. I don't run any drones at all with my Crisis Suits. I DO run Shield Drones with my Broadsides, since they're static units, and I used to run them with my Commander, until I turned my Commander into a TL Fusion Blaster, Flamer, HW MT suicide tank hunter.

Drop the Sniper team, they suck.
Also, Id drop the Broadside (as a unit of 1 isnt that useful, plus you already have 2 Railheads) in favour of another team of pathfinders with a fish. Then you have 2 fish for your FW squads to make them mobile and stop them dying!

Sainthazard, are kroot ever a viable option versus marines? You pay a premium for a unit that is agreeabley an excellent shield, does well in cover, has large squads, and can infiltrate, but marines will cut them down quicker than orks will they not? Is it not an extra KP and nothing else?

I have never believed in kroot unless they are holding an objective in cover en masse or charging units like guardsmen and stuff. I had 5 vanguard veterans chop down 15 (sweeping advance) of the suckers, admittedly the VGVs were in a much higher points range than 15 kroot, but none the less, marines are equip to deal with kroot very well.

What do you use them for (Im starting tau next year, help would be nice)

The question wasnt directed at me, but I just thought id throw in my 2 cents:

If you keep them in decent cover, and with hounds/krootox for CC or more firepower, they can deal with small/unspecialised SM units like a Tac Squad or Scouts. Limited use, but still a use. Other units like Termies/Assault squads or the more fancy, non-vanilla stuff; theyre just a speed bump.

Well..... i can't go either way on the ion/railhead questions unless you tell me what the marines are running? can't believe nobody has asked... a drop pod isn't enoigh to go by. If he runs mech, railgun his face. If any other variant(except termies) run ionhead.

Now this isn't the most points sound or tactically effective idea, but it's fun. you need a unit of vespids (cue groan), and and unit of gun drones. Start with the gun drones 2-3" ahead of the bugs. Bugs move forward 12", open up on some marines, kill on a 3+ w/o armor save, then drones try to take a few shots, then move 6" forward in assault phase, because they're jet pack equipped. Next turn the drones are a shooting and assault buffer for the vespids. Once again, expensive and not the best tactic, but darn fun.

2 preds with AC
1 rhino
1 land speeder
1 bike squad
3 TMS


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Wyvern wrote:Drop the Sniper team, they suck.
Also, Id drop the Broadside (as a unit of 1 isnt that useful, plus you already have 2 Railheads) in favour of another team of pathfinders with a fish. Then you have 2 fish for your FW squads to make them mobile and stop them dying!

Railheads are unreliable at best, they only fire one shot, non twin-linked. Broadsides can fire up to three at a single target, twin-linked. Two Broadsides is roughly the same cost as a single Railhead. Broadsides are your anti-tank, no question about it. Furthermore, railheads are nigh useless against Marines. Ionheads will kill Marines. Railhead submunition will bounce off his armor.

Jaon wrote:Sainthazard, are kroot ever a viable option versus marines? You pay a premium for a unit that is agreeabley an excellent shield, does well in cover, has large squads, and can infiltrate, but marines will cut them down quicker than orks will they not? Is it not an extra KP and nothing else?

I have never believed in kroot unless they are holding an objective in cover en masse or charging units like guardsmen and stuff. I had 5 vanguard veterans chop down 15 (sweeping advance) of the suckers, admittedly the VGVs were in a much higher points range than 15 kroot, but none the less, marines are equip to deal with kroot very well.

What do you use them for (Im starting tau next year, help would be nice)

Yes! Kroot can in fact be useful against Marines. Now, personally, I run a pure Tau list. I personally hate Kroot. But that's just me! They can be useful bubble-wrap for your squishier units, and they're not expensive in the least. 70 points gets you a single squad of ten, but like you said, that tends to end up as a free KP, so take twenty, with maybe some Hounds for that extra CC punch. Unlike Wyvern's suggestion, I suggest avoiding Krootox. Without them, you can infiltrate the Kroot, and the Krootox is too expensive for what little it does. Don't be worried that the Kroot will get cut down by the Marines - that's why you have a unit of 20 (26 with 6 hounds). Don't bother with a Shaper, since bolters will deny a 6+ armor save, Shapers against Marines are wasted points. If you were going up against Guard or Nids, I'd say yeah, take a Shaper, but against anything whose basic shooting will deny a 6+ armor save, don't bother.


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mcyeatman wrote:2 preds with AC
1 rhino
1 land speeder
1 bike squad
3 TMS


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Only two bits of armor with more than 11 front armor, hence the Broadsides (two is best - see if you can pop both Predators on turn 1, and see the look on his face! ) - Ionheads will cut through Rhinos and Land Speeders like butter. With S7, they'll still wound the bikers on a 2+, as well.


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micahaphone wrote:Now this isn't the most points sound or tactically effective idea, but it's fun. you need a unit of vespids (cue groan), and and unit of gun drones. Start with the gun drones 2-3" ahead of the bugs. Bugs move forward 12", open up on some marines, kill on a 3+ w/o armor save, then drones try to take a few shots, then move 6" forward in assault phase, because they're jet pack equipped. Next turn the drones are a shooting and assault buffer for the vespids. Once again, expensive and not the best tactic, but darn fun.

Horribly expensive. I wouldn't recommend this tactic under any circumstances. Like you said, fun, but that's about it.

10 Kroot are 70 points and can be spread in a line 30" long to protect your entire army from assault. You can do this twice, literally having the second line an inch or so behind the first. Kroot aren't bad at shooting, either. And 10 Kroot get 30 dice at WS4 and S4 when assaulting.

I'm just saying, is all...

SaintHazard wrote:Uh, Smarteye? Do you play Tau?

...snip rant

Try not to give advice that contradicts what actual Tau players are saying.

Most of Smartyeye's advice was fine, no reason to get so worked up.
- Body guards are only worth it if your 3 elite slots are taken and you still need more suits. (20 pts to raise the BS by 1 is ridiculous).
- Sniper Drones are very hard to play and suffer vs the likes of drop pods.
- Ionheads are not that good. Certainly not good enough for 2 in a list. Don't forget that in fifth everyone gets a cover save most of the time, so the Ionhead will kill one marine per salvo.

As for the advice of 2 units of 4 pathfinders:
- 4 is a bad number, one casualty and you're rolling ld checks, on 7... go for 5
- two units at 1500 points is too much, they're easy killpoints

Shrubs wrote:Most of Smartyeye's advice was fine, no reason to get so worked up.

No it wasn't. It was clearly based on "internet consensus" on how to play Tau, likely the result of poorly construct statistics charts and massive amounts of theorycrafting. When I see an opinion based on actual tabletop experience and analysis, I'll put some credence in it. Smarteye is not a Tau player, and based on your advice, I'm not sure you are either.

Shrubs wrote:- Body guards are only worth it if your 3 elite slots are taken and you still need more suits. (20 pts to raise the BS by 1 is ridiculous).
- Sniper Drones are very hard to play and suffer vs the likes of drop pods.
- Ionheads are not that good. Certainly not good enough for 2 in a list. Don't forget that in fifth everyone gets a cover save most of the time, so the Ionhead will kill one marine per salvo.

Except that they're excellent. They have more than one utility (as I've stated). Not only can Ionheads more reliably pop light armor (which the Marine list has in abundance), they can take down Marines much more easily than a Railhead could hope to. They're also great at popping off those annoying ICs that you sometimes find running along (though not often with SM). Basically, against Marines, they have much broader utility than Railheads, and they're far more reliable. Again, if this were a Nid list, a Guard list, an Ork list, basically any non-MEq list, I'd say yeah, take a Railhead or two. But it's not.

And you can simply scroll up to read my analysis of sniper drones. I never once said they were good for this list. Ever. I said the OPPOSITE, in fact, but you've conveniently chosen to ignore that. I made my point as to their utility (for the same cost as three Broadsides), but then said that that doesn't apply to THIS LIST.

Shrubs wrote:As for the advice of 2 units of 4 pathfinders:
- 4 is a bad number, one casualty and you're rolling ld checks, on 7... go for 5
- two units at 1500 points is too much, they're easy killpoints

With Pathfinders, two casualties is more likely than one, depending on what's being shot at you. The theoretical difference between 4 and 5 Pathfinders gets everyone worked up. The practical difference is nonexistent. Again, tabletop experience trumps theorycrafting. That said, they're actually Ld8. If you don't have a Shas'ui and bonding knife on a unit that is below 50% once it takes TWO casualties (or three if you take five) then you're doing it wrong. THAT is when they become an easy KP. Nothing more frustrating than a tiny unit of 4 infantrymen who regroup every single damn turn.

I'm surprised at some of the anti sniper posts here.

Are we agreed that markerlights are a good thing?

If so whats wrong with snipers? For their points you get a BS4 markerlight with stealthfield, and as a bonus 3 S6 BS3 pinning weapons (all with TLs).

If you don't like them fine, but don't immediately write them off as useless.

Cheers

Andrew

PS try putting emp grenades with one of the FW squads, 7 automatic hits on the DP with Glances at d6 and Pen at d6+1, you should wreck it

Can't remember the last time I saw EMP grenades on FW.

If you're putting grenades on your FW, you may be running your FW wrong. First, I said they should never leave their transports (as soon as they do, they're basically a free KP), and second, they should never be anywhere near close combat.