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To use a super-heavy tank and be completely within the generally accepted/standard rules you must be playing Apocalypse, which is 3k + points per side.

That being said, I've played games with Superheavies under 2000, and the main problem is that they are very hard to kill, not that they put out too much firepower. To take down a super-heavy you pretty much have to have a squad of meltas in the back, termis with chain fists or a melta-bomb assault. Not much else will cut it.

hehehehehehehehehehhehehe

lunarman wrote:To use a super-heavy tank and be completely within the generally accepted/standard rules you must be playing Apocalypse, which is 3k + points per side.

Not true. 2000+ points is all that is required to bring a Super-Heavy Vehicle.

Play spearhead, then the superheavy becomes legal if you take the "superheavy" spearhead..

Spearhead is great fun actually..try a few games...

GET A HELLHAMMER... that beast is just full of weapons and its main weapon has Str 10 ap1 ordnance 1 no cover saved allowed... but only range 36... but your playing on a 4x6 table and range 36 is enough

so i say dont get a baneblade get a hellhammerrrrrrrr

H.B.M.C. wrote:

lunarman wrote:To use a super-heavy tank and be completely within the generally accepted/standard rules you must be playing Apocalypse, which is 3k + points per side.

Not true. 2000+ points is all that is required to bring a Super-Heavy Vehicle.

Citation?

Spearhead. Nuff said.

The new IA books have the "expansion" logo on them. Unless you're going to tell me spearheads and apoc formations are now non-optional, IA rules are optional.

erwos wrote:The new IA books have the "expansion" logo on them. Unless you're going to tell me spearheads and apoc formations are now non-optional, IA rules are optional.

This sort of silliness is what I was trying to avoid. It is not wrong, but it is not entirely correct either.

My stress on "normal 40k" originally was because it is entirely possible to play 40k using IA books, without Spearhead or Apocalypse.

It is an expansion, but it is still 40k--not Apocalypse, not Spearhead, not Cities of Death, or whatnot.

But like playing with any expansion, it should be discussed prior to playing, or even list building.
I would not bring IA rules to a pick-up game assuming the opponent would be 100% fine with anything and everything in it.

Then again, I do not assume random opponents are 100% fine with normal 40k rules either, and judging by YMDC no one else should either.

Cambak wrote:

hehehehehehehehehehhehehe

I like it!!!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Citation?

Did you even read the rest of the thread before replying to me? Go back a page.

It's not legal to take super-heavies without opponent's permission HBMC, because the rulebook says so and Forge World doesn't override the core rulebook. It's that simple.

No tournament will allow them, in any case.

why is legality even the question?


"My opponent is usually my son. He wants a Black Legion army. ... he's also 6 y/o "

NO. Do not get a baneblade. I'm a daycare worker and i deal with little kids all the time, and I can perfectly picture his reaction to you having a tank 2x as large as any of his, which puts down a template 2x larger than any "legal" templates.

You could easily crush his interest in warhammer

You should get your son the Baneblade

Neither should get the baneblade. At 1800 points, you are looking at still doing the same old thing. Up to 2500 points would probably still be in the range of vanilla games.

To have a tank thats capable of ripping through half your army in a single shot, or actually doing a heck of a lot of damage in a 1800 point army, is borderline bearding.

Do a demo game with your son at the FLGS with a store baneblade. It is harsh. I've killed over 28 orks in one shot with the baneblade. Is that what you want your son exposed to. Super-heavies should belong in apocalypse, not in normal games.

Ordo Dakka wrote:It's not legal to take super-heavies without opponent's permission HBMC, because the rulebook says so and Forge World doesn't override the core rulebook. It's that simple.

Not true. The Forge World books say you can, and the Rulebook says nothing of the sort.

Ordo Dakka wrote:No tournament will allow them, in any case.

Not true either. Tournament Organisers say what is and what isn't allowed. Any TO is perfectly within his/her rights to ban Space Marines if they wanted to.

HBMC, even if it were a WAAC game, which as there is a six-year old opponent I doubt would be the case, its borderline bearding.

Imperial armour 1 says and I quote *The use of forgeworld models is up to the players in the game* *you need at least 2000 points to use a superheavy*

So yes, technically you *could* use a baneblade/stormhammer in a 1800 point battle. However, I personally would only use superheavies in games of 2000 points and up myself.

Why?
Because such vehicles are designed for apocalypse games, and used in *large battles* as forgeworld calls them.

I wasn't he should (or even could) use it in an 1800 point game (and the OP did say 'add' to an 1800 point army, which would bring it above 2000 points, not as 'part of' an 1800 point army). The rules stipulate that a second detachment is required, and that requires a points value of 2000 or above. And Imperial Armour 2 goes even further to say that the rules do not require your opponent's permission. And "Up to the players" is not the same as "Opponent's permission" because this is a case of what is reasonable vs what the rules say.

The rules say you can, but it is reasonable to let your opponent know beforehand. Very important difference.



And as for 'border line bearding'? Please! Most Super-Heavies are virtually useless outside of the first couple of turns due to the 'One Big Gun' syndrome I described before, and a single squad of Terminators with Chainfists, or a decent volley of Meltagun fire will see off any other Super-Heavy. They're glass hammers most of the time, and generally attract so much attention that their oft-vaunted durability is essentially negated.

Don't do it. super heavies are ridiculously hard to kill, have a str. 9 ap 3 extra large blast, and will be the focus of any game. If you mostly play with your son then by no means should you field it against him. and I'm sorry HBMC but the books put out by forgeworld don't trump the rulebook, they just say that as an excuse for you to buy more of their overpriced minis. look at the damage chart/explanation for super heavies in the apoc rulebook, and you'll see how hard they are to kill. You can get a lot more for the ~$100 you'd spend on it. Just say no.

micahaphone wrote:... and I'm sorry HBMC but the books put out by forgeworld don't trump the rulebook...

And where does it say in the rulebook that Forge World and/or Super-Heavies require your opponent's permission* exactly?


*Disclaimer: Requires your opponent's permission more than any other aspect of the game would, as technically everything you do requires the permission of those you are playing, and vice versa.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wasn't he should (or even could) use it in an 1800 point game (and the OP did say 'add' to an 1800 point army, which would bring it above 2000 points, not as 'part
And as for 'border line bearding'? Please! Most Super-Heavies are virtually useless outside of the first couple of turns due to the 'One Big Gun' syndrome I described before, and a single squad of Terminators with Chainfists, or a decent volley of Meltagun fire will see off any other Super-Heavy. They're glass hammers most of the time, and generally attract so much attention that their oft-vaunted durability is essentially negated.

But if he's playing his son, then I doubt that they're much more than just casual players, so I doubt that his six year old son is going to be using the most tactical, tournament style, read over the internet, meta game bull , and probably just collects whatever sounds cool. So don't be a collasal piece of to your very own son, and buy some other fun stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

micahaphone wrote:... and I'm sorry HBMC but the books put out by forgeworld don't trump the rulebook...

And where does it say in the rulebook that Forge World and/or Super-Heavies require your opponent's permission* exactly?


*Disclaimer: Requires your opponent's permission more than any other aspect of the game would, as technically everything you do requires the permission of those you are playing, and vice versa.

Okay, that makes sense, but he's not just playing people his age at the local store, he's mostly playing his son, who'd probably love the idea of something big, new and wacky. Heck, he'd want his own, which is another point for the don't do it side. Anyway, his son, who probably doesn't know much about the game (i.e. doesn't go on the internet or talk tactics and tourneys at the local store, only reads the rulebook & plays with his dad) would have a very frustrating and difficult game playing against it. Once again, strength nine, ap 3 against chaos marines. aka, kill everything and soak up just about everything shot at it. As stated earlier, you'll probably ruin his interest in 40k if you try this.

And that's fine. If he's going to throw it at his 6-year-old son, then that's less a problem of the rules and 'what's legal' than it is the reasons why he thinks he should be using a Baneblade against a six year old.

But regardless of any of that, whether his son was 6, 16 or 60, he could take the Baneblade as long as it was a game of 2000 points or more (which adding a 450 point baneblade to a 1800 point game would be...).

That's all I'm saying.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And that's fine. If he's going to throw it at his 6-year-old son, then that's less a problem of the rules and 'what's legal' than it is the reasons why he thinks he should be using a Baneblade against a six year old.

But regardless of any of that, whether his son was 6, 16 or 60, he could take the Baneblade as long as it was a game of 2000 points or more (which adding a 450 point baneblade to a 1800 point game would be...).

That's all I'm saying.

And what I'm saying is that this'd be a mean/dick move to pull on his own son. I bet the kid has never played a super heavy, and probably isn't packing too much anti tank. And with six year olds, a real negative experience that drags on for 1-2 hours would probably make him never play again.

Yes, he could legally do so, but he shouldn't.

And with that, I agree.

Unless they both get Baneblades.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And with that, I agree.

Unless they both get Baneblades.

hmm.... I approve. If the Mrs. somehow allows this, it'd be hilarious. Maybe ask her after she's had a few.

What I am trying to get at, is rather than disallowing the baneblade/superheavy completely, is that both players should be aware of its rules. That is, to avoid the completely annoying rabbits out of hats ruling. Say somebody took a warhound or reaver titan to a friendly. You'd have only a little chance of killing it, whilst you removed your models from the board.

I agree, its a fun and cool model. BUT in the bigger picture, I myself would only use superheavies in a much larger game, simply because tactically the baneblade is a dead-ender.

I wouldn't find much fun in removing a heapload of figures from the table, and as for a six-year old versing a baneblade...Well I can guess what the end results of that would be.

Sure, some of you veteran gamers would scoff, and cite *glass hammer syndrome* or whatever. But to that age group, a baneblade is intimidating, and the weapons loadout....Thats like me taking a warlord titan with six vortex missiles. Its within the rules, but a game-ender.

tactics for the takedown, I am sorry but I don't even see an army list so you just can't speculate whats in there. And AP2 feths sake. If the baneblade is made. I pity the six-year old completely.