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kirsanth wrote:

tgf wrote:most the 500 point leagues around here have rules prohibiting AV14 and more than 2 wounds on a model.

So no Tyranids?

As for unwritten rules. . .For rolling:
Pick up the misses, leave the successes on the table.
The rules actually suggest the opposite.

Naw it just forces people to use the good tyranid lists.

Honestly I don't really think what the person did to your GF was all that unfair UNLESS: A. He knew she was new to the game (then he was just being a ) or B. It was some sort of small 500pt tournament. If it was neither A nor B then yes he was being a .

Personally when I am teaching new players the game or am playing new players who know the game but just haven't played much I let them use the overpowered list so they get to know the Metagame and I just try out an experimental list of mine or something.

Ok best 500pt list I have EVER MADE: Mephiston-250, 5 man Assault squad with power weapon sergeant and 1 meltagun x2-250. This list is IMPOSSIBLE to win against because at 500pts there is nothing that can kill Mephiston especially when he gets into close combat (only thing that ever came close was a 500pt Chaos list with a Daemon Prince, damn Eternal Warrior) and then after the combat you move him into terrain until your turn so he gets a 4+ cover save, and he is backed up by 2 5 man assault squads with nasty power weapon sergeants and meltaguns for those of you who like to do 500pt guard mech lists. Consequently Mephiston eats vehicles for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with his str 10 attacks in cc.

That mephisto thing is definitely abusive as heck. I applaud.

On the topic of how to introduce new players I think it best to include a small amount of everything. A character (preferrably a psyker of some kind), a tank (prefferably a transport), a walker/MC, a deep strike/infiltrate, an assault unit, a dakka unit. This gives them a broad range of rules concepts to understand before they go specializing into a play style of choice.

Sanguinis wrote:Honestly I don't really think what the person did to your GF was all that unfair UNLESS: A. He knew she was new to the game (then he was just being a ) or B. It was some sort of small 500pt tournament. If it was neither A nor B then yes he was being a ....

Ah, I am said girlfriend being referred to in the thread (why the entire thread? gah.)
my Tau opponent knew very well that I was new to the game and that I hadn't looked past the basic rules of the game. We struck up conversation and he snuck in a "challenge" within that conversation, and me--being myself and shy and wanting to make friends--accepted the challenge with nearly no clue as to what I was doing. I asked if it could be a 500-pt friendly game (it being my first ever and all that) because I only had one squad of 10 termagaunts, one squad of 12 hormagaunts, two zoanthrope models, one venomthrope model, and a 4th ed. hive tyrant (that I despise with every fiber of my being). my list added up to like 492 or something like that and my opponent's list was at 508.. I didn't have enough models to try and make it even, so I upgraded the Tyrant a few points, even though I forgot about the ability completely and could have used it several times..

I don't think NMD is saying that it was unfair (I did have a LOT of fun, after all), he means that it was a jerk move on my opponent's part specifically because he knew what I had and kind of destroyed half of my army on the first turn anyway because he wanted to feel like a winner, haha

(still won though, yeah! )

Guitardian wrote:That mephisto thing is definitely abusive as heck. I applaud.

On the topic of how to introduce new players I think it best to include a small amount of everything. A character (preferrably a psyker of some kind), a tank (prefferably a transport), a walker/MC, a deep strike/infiltrate, an assault unit, a dakka unit. This gives them a broad range of rules concepts to understand before they go specializing into a play style of choice.

I would have totally loved a more varying game if I had the models. I remember my opponent had this apparently tough-dude (box-shaped, walked on 2 legs and had a jumppack) that kept attacking my Tyrant every move and running away after that, and I had NO idea what it was and no one really explained to me what was going on with it, I just kind of accepted it, hahaa.
hopefully when I get at least 700-points worth of an army, I can experience all of the different types of enemies and have an idea as to how I would like to choose my playing style.

~ [<3]

*edit for adding to post

Sanguinis wrote:Ok best 500pt list I have EVER MADE: Mephiston-250, 5 man Assault squad with power weapon sergeant and 1 meltagun x2-250. This list is IMPOSSIBLE to win against because at 500pts there is nothing that can kill Mephiston especially when he gets into close combat (only thing that ever came close was a 500pt Chaos list with a Daemon Prince, damn Eternal Warrior) and then after the combat you move him into terrain until your turn so he gets a 4+ cover save, and he is backed up by 2 5 man assault squads with nasty power weapon sergeants and meltaguns for those of you who like to do 500pt guard mech lists. Consequently Mephiston eats vehicles for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with his str 10 attacks in cc.

I wouldnt even know what ide say if someone put Meph on the table during a 500 point game, since that SHOULD give me permission to punch him in the mouth before we start
I feel like "Hero" units like Ghaz, Meph, and such should stay far away in a friendly 500pt game, because thats how you make the kind of enemy that "forgets" to whipe the cheetos off his hand before grabbing your most carefully painted model

H.B.M.C. wrote:The best unwritten rule is that all Marine/Chaos/Ork Dreadnoughts get 2D6+S vs vehicles when using Dreadnought CCW's.

Of course, that's not the rule, but the first time someone here pointed out that that wasn't the rule and that they only got D6+S (and it wasn't that long ago) the litany of people (long-time posters) going:

"Really? But we've always played it that way? Really?"

... was amazing.

I kinda wish we'd never found out.

Agreed, my old group always played dreads like this and never thought to check, because it just made sense.

EDIT: also, why do girlfriends always go 'nids? mine did and i've read other posters say the same.

Kurgash wrote:Best get exposed to the kind of SUPER weapons and abilities early in the gaming career so one can adapt to expect it and learn to counter it.

props.

exactly!

Lord Harrab wrote:EDIT: also, why do girlfriends always go 'nids? mine did and i've read other posters say the same.

DUDE. Our friends at our FLGS had the EXACT same question. Apparently the little bastards are the cutest option

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:

Lord Harrab wrote:EDIT: also, why do girlfriends always go 'nids? mine did and i've read other posters say the same.

DUDE. Our friends at our FLGS had the EXACT same question. Apparently the little bastards are the cutest option

wait, what?

Hordes of mindless bugs that butcher entire populations before reducing both them and their planet into soup is considered cute?

Your preconceived concepts of women have been changed forever.

My GF was a bit different and much prefered my DE to anyone else . . . which says quite a bit

On Topic, people playing a small point list like that in a friendly game should be slapped . . . in a tournament however, go nuts =D

Oshova

Lol my wife played her first competitive tournament in 40K here in perth, 750pts. Won against a demon prince/chaos dread combo. Drew against a land raider/kharn combo. Lost against an obliterator army.

She's in the next round of the tournament.

My club starts the 'noobs' off with combat patrol.
Following ALL of the limitations and it's up to 500pts.

The heaviest armoured vehicle allowed is a chimera.
Eldar can't have ANY tanks.
Guard can't take any ordnance.
No SCs.

Learn the basics at 400pts. Go up to 500pts next game with a few more rules. After that, they go 750, normal FOC, and thence to 1000pts and 1500pts.

I'm not in the habit of stomping noobs. It's not fun (for me, let alone them). So I guess my unwritten rule is "thou shalt not stomp the noob. There'll be time enough for that once they are blooded."

Sanguinis wrote:
Ok best 500pt list I have EVER MADE: Mephiston-250, 5 man Assault squad with power weapon sergeant and 1 meltagun x2-250. This list is IMPOSSIBLE to win against because at 500pts there is nothing that can kill Mephiston especially when he gets into close combat (only thing that ever came close was a 500pt Chaos list with a Daemon Prince, damn Eternal Warrior) and then after the combat you move him into terrain until your turn so he gets a 4+ cover save, and he is backed up by 2 5 man assault squads with nasty power weapon sergeants and meltaguns for those of you who like to do 500pt guard mech lists. Consequently Mephiston eats vehicles for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with his str 10 attacks in cc.

I must have missed the memo, my boyz steam rolled a similar list to this in the 750 point escalation league we have going on. If I remember right, it went like this, turn 2 waghh and charge. Kill all the marines, escort meph off the table. The marines rolled fairly poor, however 87 boyz, and 3 nobz with pk will get it done against small numbers like this. I think in any scenario or points level there will always be a RPS effect. While 3 land raiders would give my list fits, it would be easy for the guy that brought 6 melta guns.

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:and the whole "If the points fit it fits" thing? yeah it fit, my girlfriend bringing a carnifex to a 500pt game would have fit too, doesnt mean thats its not a dick move. Its a sportmanship thing imo

The only argument you have is that his list was apparently illegal, being 8 points over. Considering he could have fixed that easily by dropping a single fire warrior or a couple of Kroot, yeah, I'd say that's a tad dickish...and yeah, he probably also shouldn't have been too concerned with winning if she specifically requested a friendly game so she could learn the basics, and had a limited pool of models to choose from.

But the fact alone that he brought a hammerhead isn't a "dick move" by any means. Maybe in a 500 point game with a noob who has no models, yeah, but even you said it didn't matter because she beat him anyway, so doesn't that tell you something? That maybe a single railhead isn't going to win a game all by itself? That maybe your preconceptions about what's "sporting" and what isn't aren't entirely correct?

You could also argue endlessly about whether or not it's right to let someone win just because they're new. In your opinion the Tau player was being a dick for even trying, in my opinion just letting her win isn't really going to teach her anything. Maybe that helps sell starter sets at the GW store, but it doesn't help you get any better at the game.

Here's another thing to think about: she had two zoanthrope models. With a mycetic spore those two models cost about the same as a hammerhead, and had a really good chance of blowing it up on the turn they arrived with a warp blast. There is no model for a spore, so for a friendly game you could have just proxied with a soda can or something, surely. Give the hive tyrant Hive Commander and you have a better chance of said pod showing up early, just hide the gants/gaunts for a turn or two (one of them would be able to outflank, and you can't shoot what isn't on the table) until it's gone and what little he had left would have folded like wet paper. So as you can see, this wasn't so stupidly imbalanced that she had no chance at all to win, and just pulled a miracle out of her arse like you're making it sound, she was fully equipped to handle a railhead and I think the Tau guy knew it. In my opinion she'd probably have been worse off trying to cram that carnifex into the list instead of the hive tyrant.

So...other than the guy playing 8 points over, what is there to complain about here? You're mad because she earned a win instead of having it handed to her?

By the way, loving the threats of violence and damage to personal property because other people play differently than you do. Classy.

tgf wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

tgf wrote:most the 500 point leagues around here have rules prohibiting AV14 and more than 2 wounds on a model.

So no Tyranids?

As for unwritten rules. . .For rolling:
Pick up the misses, leave the successes on the table.
The rules actually suggest the opposite.

Naw it just forces people to use the good tyranid lists.

Snide much?
So, what HQ do they use that has less than 3 wounds?

Oh, that one that uh...hmm...

Yeah, I guess it'd be cool if people knew what the hell they were talking about, before trying to play the role of game designer.

I don't believe there is one. Tgf is just being snippy.

Off-topic (on-secondary-topic?) I have yet to experience the "girls play Nids and Sisters" stereotype. I guess it exists for a reason, but it's foreign to me. I actually went through all of the factions with my girlfriend, asked her which ones appeal the most to her. Her first answer? "Probably Necrons." (cue "wat" face from me)

"Or Chaos Daemons."

And I actually managed to get my mom into the game. She thoroughly enjoys playing Orks, but wants to start a DE army.

They both have a passing interest in Sisters, but it's mostly because they think "nuns with guns" are cool.

On-topic, whenever we're going to deflower a newbie at my FLGS, we start with 500 points, they borrow one of my armies (since I have six so far) and I generally try to tailor the two lists to be fairly balanced. I start with infantry and maybe a walker, to let them learn to basic rules. In their second game, we go 500 points again, but I start filtering in light vehicles. A Rhino on one side, a Devilfish on the other, or similar, so they can learn the rules for transports and vehicles that are not walkers. Their third game, I'll generally play two specialized armies against one another - Orks versus Tau, or Orks versus Space Marines - so they get to experience a CC-oriented army and a shooty army against one another. From there I let them choose. Typically by their fourth game, they're entirely sold on the hobby, and have purchased a small army of their own. My two most recent recruitments each bought AoBR (one wanted to play Orks, one Space Marines). The Ork guy traded his AoBR Marines for the Marine player's AoBR Orks.

In my first game I was impaled by a Deathwing army. It's much better to know that YOU could attain that level of pwnage with a little work at the hobby, than win your first game against a veteran and just think the whole thing is luck.

kirsanth wrote:

tgf wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

tgf wrote:most the 500 point leagues around here have rules prohibiting AV14 and more than 2 wounds on a model.

So no Tyranids?

As for unwritten rules. . .For rolling:
Pick up the misses, leave the successes on the table.
The rules actually suggest the opposite.

Naw it just forces people to use the good tyranid lists.

Snide much?
So, what HQ do they use that has less than 3 wounds?

IIRC the LGS that ran this changed force org to just one troop required. 500 points is a pretty low point level to hold interest of most gamers. I didn't make the rules was the LGS. It also excludes Necrons, Tau, and Eldar, and Chaos HQ units, so don't panic bugs aren't the only ones rolling no HQ, about half the armies out there. Think about a 500 point game, some armies would have almost 0 wiggle if you had base force org. Necron Lord 100, 2x Min warrior 360, so you have 40 points go get'em tiger. As far as the LGS playing game designer, I bet I could find a post from every person in this thread complaining about how stupid GW as or X-rule how bad it is. Aren't we all playing game designer to one degree or another when chatting and analyzing rules, builds, and efficiencies.

Also I think when this league ran the new dex wasn't out yet, so warriors were elite/HQ picks still.

I agree itd be quite disgusting to field:

Leman russ: 150
Executioner: 190
Demolisher: 165
Command squad w/ 3x plasma, melta: 105
Vets: 70
Vets: 70
Total: 750

What could beat that? It beats tanks, Termies, MEQ, horde, EVERYTHING!

I work with a guy who used the Swarmlord in his first 750 point battle... But without tervigons and termagaunts, or Tyrant Guard for that matter.

He doesn't see the problem with such a point sink.

Jaon wrote:I agree itd be quite disgusting to field:

Leman russ: 150
Executioner: 190
Demolisher: 165
Command squad w/ 3x plasma, melta: 105
Vets: 70
Vets: 70
Total: 750

What could beat that? It beats tanks, Termies, MEQ, horde, EVERYTHING!

Horde as max unit coherency is a real PITA to put down. Especially when they have screening or KFF type cover saves. As with any elite style army the low number of wounds on your objective holders is always the Achilles heel. Its a hard list for sure though. I don't think there is a holy grail, can't be beat list at any point level or any format, there is always an RPS effect somewhere.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The best unwritten rule is that all Marine/Chaos/Ork Dreadnoughts get 2D6+S vs vehicles when using Dreadnought CCW's.

Of course, that's not the rule, but the first time someone here pointed out that that wasn't the rule and that they only got D6+S (and it wasn't that long ago) the litany of people (long-time posters) going:

Actually, D6+S is wrong as well - it's D6+(S*2)

Sidstyler wrote:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:and the whole "If the points fit it fits" thing? yeah it fit, my girlfriend bringing a carnifex to a 500pt game would have fit too, doesnt mean thats its not a dick move. Its a sportmanship thing imo

The only argument you have is that his list was apparently illegal, being 8 points over. Considering he could have fixed that easily by dropping a single fire warrior or a couple of Kroot, yeah, I'd say that's a tad dickish...and yeah, he probably also shouldn't have been too concerned with winning if she specifically requested a friendly game so she could learn the basics, and had a limited pool of models to choose from.

But the fact alone that he brought a hammerhead isn't a "dick move" by any means. Maybe in a 500 point game with a noob who has no models, yeah, but even you said it didn't matter because she beat him anyway, so doesn't that tell you something? That maybe a single railhead isn't going to win a game all by itself? That maybe your preconceptions about what's "sporting" and what isn't aren't entirely correct?

You could also argue endlessly about whether or not it's right to let someone win just because they're new. In your opinion the Tau player was being a dick for even trying, in my opinion just letting her win isn't really going to teach her anything. Maybe that helps sell starter sets at the GW store, but it doesn't help you get any better at the game.

Here's another thing to think about: she had two zoanthrope models. With a mycetic spore those two models cost about the same as a hammerhead, and had a really good chance of blowing it up on the turn they arrived with a warp blast. There is no model for a spore, so for a friendly game you could have just proxied with a soda can or something, surely. Give the hive tyrant Hive Commander and you have a better chance of said pod showing up early, just hide the gants/gaunts for a turn or two (one of them would be able to outflank, and you can't shoot what isn't on the table) until it's gone and what little he had left would have folded like wet paper. So as you can see, this wasn't so stupidly imbalanced that she had no chance at all to win, and just pulled a miracle out of her arse like you're making it sound, she was fully equipped to handle a railhead and I think the Tau guy knew it. In my opinion she'd probably have been worse off trying to cram that carnifex into the list instead of the hive tyrant.

So...other than the guy playing 8 points over, what is there to complain about here? You're mad because she earned a win instead of having it handed to her?

By the way, loving the threats of violence and damage to personal property because other people play differently than you do. Classy.

-No spores because she didnt know about them, (me either) and even if we did she played with all the models she had, it just so happen to come out to 492 total
-He didnt know Zoans had a Lance (he thought the only anti tank she had was the tyrant so he PLANNED to just kite it around all day)
-Started 6" off the table instead of the usual 12" (he said it because it was a small game, he wanted an extra turn of shooting )
-No this isnt a "LET HER WIN" thread, its about teaching someone who is new to the game how to play, not just trying to prove that tau can shoot down a nid army. (he was talking to his friends before the setup the he would "crush" her )
-I cant be held accountable what happens to a player or his models if he puts Meph in a friendly 500pt game (IM JOKING HURR DURR)

I would also like to see a "fair" nid list at 500pts with nothing over 2 wounds

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:-Started 6" off the table instead of the usual 12" (he said it because it was a small game, he wanted an extra turn of shooting )

This was cheating and should have been the subject of your opening post - not the perfectly legal railhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:-He didnt know Zoans had a Lance (he thought the only anti tank she had was the tyrant so he PLANNED to just kite it around all day)

Also, if he made his list after seeing what she was bringing (which you imply but don't state) then that, also, would be valid grounds for complaint.

Scott-S6 wrote:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:-Started 6" off the table instead of the usual 12" (he said it because it was a small game, he wanted an extra turn of shooting )

This was cheating and should have been the subject of your opening post - not the perfectly legal railhead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:-He didnt know Zoans had a Lance (he thought the only anti tank she had was the tyrant so he PLANNED to just kite it around all day)

Also, if he made his list after seeing what she was bringing (which you imply but don't state) then that, also, would be valid grounds for complaint.

Yeah i totally overlooked both those things at first

Scott-S6 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The best unwritten rule is that all Marine/Chaos/Ork Dreadnoughts get 2D6+S vs vehicles when using Dreadnought CCW's.

Of course, that's not the rule, but the first time someone here pointed out that that wasn't the rule and that they only got D6+S (and it wasn't that long ago) the litany of people (long-time posters) going:

Actually, D6+S is wrong as well - it's D6+(S*2)

Actually d6+(S*2) is also wrong.

It's d6+(S*2 to a maximum of 10).

Otherwise you'd have a lot of S12 Dreads out there.

My group of friends uses the understanding of no special characters (I know the term doesn't really apply anymore) under 2k points. Just unrealistic for Abba Dabba or Dante to lead small raiding forces.

Except for the EMPRAHS CHUMPEEE-ON! of course.

99% of the posts here are off topic, so I'll go on topic. It's okay to take some real over powered units, but if you can realistically look at your list and think "man, It'd piss me off to face this", then don't do it. I'm talking about the "take 2 5 man scout squads just so you have more points to buy termies" kinda thing. Just don't do it. And just so you know, ma'am, the thing where the boxy guy (called a crisis suit) shot you then went backwards, that's legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iz a kitty wrote:
I don't think NMD is saying that it was unfair (I did have a LOT of fun, after all), he means that it was a jerk move on my opponent's part specifically because he knew what I had and kind of destroyed half of my army on the first turn anyway because he wanted to feel like a winner, haha

(still won though, yeah! )[/color]

Guitardian wrote:That mephisto thing is definitely abusive as heck. I applaud.

hopefully when I get at least 700-points worth of an army, I can experience all of the different types of enemies and have an idea as to how I would like to choose my playing style.

~ [<3][/color]

*edit for adding to post

you're right about the "feel like a winner" thing. that's bad, and the general term for them is waac (put your mouse on dakka acronyms to read them), and I'm glad to hear that you can have fun without caring too much about winning. And that part about playing different enemies and choosing your own playing style... wow. How the heck did you get so smart about wargames? After your first game you've figured out how the game works. Nice job! Don't let people try to tell you how to play, find out for yourself. If you ever want to try a unit w/o buying it, I'd suggest playing a casual game where you proxy a unit or two. I'm guessing that your boy friend would be okay with doing a casual, proxy game with you. --Micahaphone.