Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

necrongod wrote:im sorry if someone already mentioned this i couldnt read the whole thing i was too long, but how come you dont mention necrons at all? i mena, the void dragon is right next to terra (literaly)

You fail to mention that the void dragon is a slave kept under lock and key.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Now this brings up a Hypothetical. Would the Imperium just kill every Loyalist Human that knew about the traitors if he lived, or would they just deny they existed from that day on and leave it at that had the Emperor lived?

Just to address a mistake I made, there would be 9 loyalist legions

Anyhoo, I'm not sure the Emperor would do this. The Legions were his creation, I guess he can do as he sees fit with them.

I don't think the Emperor would kill Humans just because they knew, If they allied with the traitors yes. But humans were around when the 2 missing legions were still known and look whats happened, everyone bar a few privy to the knowledge is oblivious to the fact of their existence. There might be some knowledge of them but this could be put down as legends, as these will always exist.

I suppose he could do an Armageddon and herd those who knew anything into a star system

Golden Sabres wrote:Cadians mate, Cadians.

Cadians aren't taught about Deamons or the Chaos Gods. They fight the heretical traitors, and rarely understand exactly what backs these guys apart from when they fight them firsthand.

I just don't think there is any way you can make the Horus Heresy out to be a good thing for the Imperium. No matter how you spin it the Heresy stopped a period of exponential expansion for the Imperium, and at the very best of times the Imperium has just been hanging on since then. On top of that The Emperor, humanity's only hope, is just about as close to being dead as anything can be without being dead, and once he dies humanity will most liikely go from being one of the most prolific races in the galaxy to a minority fighting and clawing to not be wiped out. Just my 2 cents.

Ashryu wrote:I just don't think there is any way you can make the Horus Heresy out to be a good thing for the Imperium. No matter how you spin it the Heresy stopped a period of exponential expansion for the Imperium, and at the very best of times the Imperium has just been hanging on since then. On top of that The Emperor, humanity's only hope, is just about as close to being dead as anything can be without being dead, and once he dies humanity will most liikely go from being one of the most prolific races in the galaxy to a minority fighting and clawing to not be wiped out. Just my 2 cents.

I seriously doubt the Emperor would die, there are just so many theories that it seems he is almost certainly not going to die.

Emperors Faithful...

The Alpha Legion stuff comes from the novel Horus Heresy novel "Legion".

....Spoiler Alert....

The Alpha Legion are told that by siding with Horus the eventual outcome will be the total destruction of Chaos through the death of mankind! They are also told that if they support the Emperor Chaos will eventually rule supreme. They are convinced by this group of xenos psykers that the Emperors goal is to rid the universe of chaos... they clearly see supporting Horus as furthering the emperors ultimate goal and so turn traitoris major!

From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

geordie09 wrote:
From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

So they took the words of some xenos psykers over anything else?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

geordie09 wrote:
From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

So they took the words of some xenos psykers over anything else?

Yep.

Basically the Cabal were lied to. They trusted what the Acuity told them over everything else. The Acuity which stares in to the warp, which just happens to be where the Chaos Gods live and they never intervene in anything in anyway oh no no.

The Alphas should've just blasted the cabal, the Choas Gods got want they wanted despite of what the Alphas did, a never ending source of amusement, war and souls.

Chaos stole the Primarchs. How could that security breach be allowed to happen, with no explanation?

Golden Sabres wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

geordie09 wrote:
From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

So they took the words of some xenos psykers over anything else?

Yep.

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically the Cabal were lied to. They trusted what the Acuity told them over everything else. The Acuity which stares in to the warp, which just happens to be where the Chaos Gods live and they never intervene in anything in anyway oh no no.

The Alphas should've just blasted the cabal, the Choas Gods got want they wanted despite of what the Alphas did, a never ending source of amusement, war and souls.

Er, no?

MUCH was never actually explained in LEGION.

Which is why LEGION (and not the awful Dark Angel books!) needs a sequel.

For all we know, the Alpha Legion are the ones trying to con the Cabal...

Alpharius wrote:

Er, no?

MUCH was never actually explained in LEGION.

Which is why LEGION (and not the awful Dark Angel books!) needs a sequel.

For all we know, the Alpha Legion are the ones trying to con the Cabal...

Er, yes, look how following the cabal turned out? That worked out reeeeally well

Chaos conned everyone, it's what the Dark Gods are good at.

The Alphas trusted a bunch of Xenos over all that they have been taught, the Heresy could be the Alphas fault in it's entirety.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter, you're obviously entitled to your own . I agree on the Legion front, it's definitely been one of the better books!

You make a very interesting point.
Of all the times the emperor appears in the HH books he is the most mysterious and intriuging indivdual, even more so than Alpharius (and yes I do belive they are secretly still rooting for the imperium. Legion suggests this).
It is almost impossible to dissern the Emperors motives.
He does seem to sit back and let the Traitors run riot.
I do belive the Emperor is a better farseer than Eldrad. Hes infinatly more powerful.
This thread has realy got me thinking.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Er, yes, look how following the cabal turned out? That worked out reeeeally well

Chaos conned everyone, it's what the Dark Gods are good at.

MAYBE.

That's the whole point of what I was saying.

We have NO idea on what the Alpha Legion really believes, and what they try to do.

It literally hasn't been written yet.

Everything we think we know, from the otherwise awesome Index Astartes article?

No idea if that still holds true.

Pilau Rice wrote:

The Alphas trusted a bunch of Xenos over all that they have been taught, the Heresy could be the Alphas fault in it's entirety.

No, that would be the Word Bearers, actually.

Alpharius wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

geordie09 wrote:
From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

So they took the words of some xenos psykers over anything else?

Yep.

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically the Cabal were lied to. They trusted what the Acuity told them over everything else. The Acuity which stares in to the warp, which just happens to be where the Chaos Gods live and they never intervene in anything in anyway oh no no.

The Alphas should've just blasted the cabal, the Choas Gods got want they wanted despite of what the Alphas did, a never ending source of amusement, war and souls.

Er, no?

MUCH was never actually explained in LEGION.

Which is why LEGION (and not the awful Dark Angel books!) needs a sequel.

For all we know, the Alpha Legion are the ones trying to con the Cabal...

pfff, well they must get conned back pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ARGH! you people!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317396.page

Alpha Legion are just normal Traitor Marines!

The Alpha Legion debate, at this time, depends greatly upon your point of view! If you're a fan, and want to think them loyalist that works. If you're indifferent to their plight then you can interperet the novel in either way. This is why the novel is one of the best in the series. It doesn't pigeon hole the Alpha legion and is still an excellent tale.

I'd like their story to be expanded upon but I think it will only be as cameo characters because this ambiguity suits the chapter, suits the fluff and probably suits the GW big wigs!

Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Legion takes place in the year 30,000. At that time the World Eaters were still fighting for the Emperor.

As far as being a fan and making your own fluff. I can be a fan of necrons but that doesn't mean their gonna be best friends with my Blood Angels. Ok, bad example but the point remains.

Well, at least I provoked some new thought...


The Imperial Guard is exposed to Chaos on a regular basis, mainly Cultists though. Reading Gaunts Ghosts, they do encounter deamons and deamon engins from time to time. Usually the encounter is fatal in itself to the guardsmen. Some survive though. It seems that soldiers can be exposed to Chaos for a short time (up to a month) and not be infected. There are drugs they can take to reduce the rate of infection.

The Eldar were a psychic race created by the Old Ones to combat the Necrons. As far as I know, it is not known if Humanity was created or developed naturally. My guess is that Humanity is another psychic race developed by the Old Ones to combat the Necrons as well. Humanity is just a little bit farther behind the Eldar on the time line. The psychic powers genetically programmed, but maturing at a slower rate as natural selection evolves over time to reach imankinds final psychic potential.

The Alpha Legion is awsome. So secretive, wilth lots of double think... But what if thier "For the Emperor!" was real, but no one believed it, not even the Legionaries themselves. How cool a con would that be? He, he... Only the twins could pull that one off!

As for the Emperor, I think he is a guy who will do whatever it takes to get the job done. The end justify the means... he can sob for the fallen later, after Humanity has won.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Again, YET.

Seriously, what part of LEGION don't you get?

I'm guessing the part that basically re-writes their history and casts everything we knew into doubt?

Sure, 10,000 years later parts of the Legion are bound to be Mustache Twirling Villains.

And some aren't.

Alpharius wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

geordie09 wrote:
From this you can clearly see why people think they're still loyal, but I dare say that like the rest of the imperium, 10,000 years has probably taken its toll on the legion and they are now genuinely twisted traitors... my opinion is that they were conned!

So they took the words of some xenos psykers over anything else?

Yep.

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically the Cabal were lied to. They trusted what the Acuity told them over everything else. The Acuity which stares in to the warp, which just happens to be where the Chaos Gods live and they never intervene in anything in anyway oh no no.

The Alphas should've just blasted the cabal, the Choas Gods got want they wanted despite of what the Alphas did, a never ending source of amusement, war and souls.

Er, no?

MUCH was never actually explained in LEGION.

Which is why LEGION (and not the awful Dark Angel books!) needs a sequel.

For all we know, the Alpha Legion are the ones trying to con the Cabal...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! too confusing! head...exploding!!!! {KAPOW}!!!

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Again, YET.

Seriously, what part of LEGION don't you get?

I'm guessing the part that basically re-writes their history and casts everything we knew into doubt?

Sure, 10,000 years later parts of the Legion are bound to be Mustache Twirling Villains.

And some aren't.

I love that, moustache twirling villains, mwah hah hah!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moustache twirling villains... mwah hah hah!

Had to post it again for it to be seen! My quoting box always mixes with my replies!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Legion takes place in the year 30,000. At that time the World Eaters were still fighting for the Emperor.

As far as being a fan and making your own fluff. I can be a fan of necrons but that doesn't mean their gonna be best friends with my Blood Angels. Ok, bad example but the point remains.

The Grate Crusade. 'nuff said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:Cadians mate, Cadians.

Cadians aren't taught about Deamons or the Chaos Gods. They fight the heretical traitors, and rarely understand exactly what backs these guys apart from when they fight them firsthand.

Not taught, told. I do remember that the only people in the Imperium who are aloud to know of Chaos, are the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Space Marines and some of the High Lords of Terra.

Very intresting ofcourse all speculation but you have to admit it would be cool to have a final hour for the imperium where everything goes to hell and back (literally)

Golden Sabres wrote:

Cadians aren't taught about Deamons or the Chaos Gods. They fight the heretical traitors, and rarely understand exactly what backs these guys apart from when they fight them firsthand.

Not taught, told. I do remember that the only people in the Imperium who are aloud to know of Chaos, are the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Space Marines and some of the High Lords of Terra.

I agree with you on all of them, except for Guard. It's known in the higher ranks yes, but its a very dirty secret that is not openly acknowledged. (Source Caiphas Cain, The Traitor's Hand)

Alpharius wrote:
MAYBE.

That's the whole point of what I was saying.

We have NO idea on what the Alpha Legion really believes, and what they try to do.

It literally hasn't been written yet.

Ok, point taken, we are both formulating ideas on what little detail we have.

Alpharius wrote:Everything we think we know, from the otherwise awesome Index Astartes article?

No idea if that still holds true.

All fluff is fluff according to GW, even if it contradicts other sources. I like to keep the BL and TT stuff separate myself and generally prefer the TT source material over the BL stuff.

Alpharius wrote:
No, that would be the Word Bearers, actually.

My point here, poorly worded as it was, is that the events in Legion happen way before the events in the first few books. If the Alpha Legion hadn't believed the Cabal, trusted in what the Emperor had told them about Xeno i.e purge them, then the Heresy might've had a different outcome. Maybe if they thought, hey, we had better warn dad about this the Heresy might have been nipped in the butt before it went the way it did.

Might be different with First Heretic coming out so we'll wait and see.

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Again, YET.

Seriously, what part of LEGION don't you get?

I'm guessing the part that basically re-writes their history and casts everything we knew into doubt?

Sure, 10,000 years later parts of the Legion are bound to be Mustache Twirling Villains.

And some aren't.

necrongod wrote:im sorry if someone already mentioned this i couldnt read the whole thing i was too long, but how come you dont mention necrons at all? i mena, the void dragon is right next to terra (literaly)

I agree. There is a GOD living on mars, hiding from an ever SCARIER GOD, and the Imperium does nothing.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Golden Sabres wrote:

Cadians aren't taught about Deamons or the Chaos Gods. They fight the heretical traitors, and rarely understand exactly what backs these guys apart from when they fight them firsthand.

Not taught, told. I do remember that the only people in the Imperium who are aloud to know of Chaos, are the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Space Marines and some of the High Lords of Terra.

I agree with you on all of them, except for Guard. It's known in the higher ranks yes, but its a very dirty secret that is not openly acknowledged. (Source Caiphas Cain, The Traitor's Hand)

It's known in the higher ranks operating outside the Eye of Terror region where Daemonic incursions are rare.

With Cadia? Pft. Daemonic manifestations are a common occurrence in the region, to the point where it's stupid not to tell the rank and file about them.

Well, the Uplifting Primer is issued to each and every Imperial Guardsman and it DOES mention daemons, not by name buy....

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer wrote:An unsanctified psyker is a grave risk to those around him. It is clear that creatures from the dark places can enter their minds and turn them into mindless killers.

So yes, the average Guardsman knows about the generic evil of Chaos, and that it can affect him directly. He also knows about heretics using Chaos, and there is a picture of various Chaos daemonthingies on top of the page. Going off of this, I think we can assume that the average Imperial Guardsman knows something about the dark powers, but isn't given the complete picture.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except their isn't a single instance of the alpha legion doing anything to help humanity.

Again, YET.

Seriously, what part of LEGION don't you get?

I'm guessing the part that basically re-writes their history and casts everything we knew into doubt?

Sure, 10,000 years later parts of the Legion are bound to be Mustache Twirling Villains.

And some aren't.

Spoiler:

I don't think Legion changes anything except how there's a 21st Primarch

regards to ur spoiler no its not omegon isnt the 21st primarch him and alpahrius are the exact same entity only they inhabit 2 bodies. when they dark gods scattered them thats how they got messed up and became 2 "people"