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Yes, you all think I am insane... but here is my thinking.

Real life reasons:

1) The Empire and The Emperor are the heros and focus of Games Workshop, everything revolves around that.
2) Epic stories must have heros and villlians, a struggle between right and wrong, and the tranformation of the hero through personal suffering.
3) Most people want the heros to win.
4) Cliff hangers make for great stories, and 10,000 years is a great cliff hanger.


That got me thinking. How can that possibly happen with the story GW has cooked up? The Heresy, with only the evil Primarchs left alive. The Emperor practically dead on the Golden Throne. The Empire on the ropes, besieged on all sides. An impossible to stop army of Tyranids aimed at Earth. I mean talk about depressing... How can GW possibly have Man come out on top? It seems impossible!


So I started looking for the clues... the unexplained stuff.

Why did the Iron Men rebel?
Why did Chaos leave Man alone until the end of the Dark Age of Technology?
Why is the Human race evolving into a psychic race?
Chaos stole the Primarchs. How could that security breach be allowed to happen, with no explanation?
Why did the Emperor ignore the warning from Magnus the Red?
Why could Eldrad see Horus turning to Chaos, but the Emperor could not?
Why could the Cabal see the Horus turning, but not the Emperor.
Is the Alpha Legion secretly loyal to the Emperor?
Why is Roboute Guilliman's wound healing within the stasis field?
Why have the loyal Primarchs each had a mysterious disapperance?
What is the condition of the Emperor's Webway?
What is the Legion of the Damned, how do they know where to go and how do they get there? Why are the Inquistion's investigations mysteriously blocked?
What happened to the two unknown Primarchs and thier Legions?
Why could Man navigate the stars during the Great Crusade, and the Dark Age of Tchnology, but needs the Astronomican now?


No, I don't have all the answers to ALL that stuff. But I believe I have reasoned out some of the explanations to fit the "Emperor comes out on top epic," that GW must eventually tell, or at least progress the timelime towards through tibits in various books.


Please bear with me...

The Emperor has been alive for around 50,000 years. Only the last 10,000 have been on the Golden Throne. He has been alive all that time, with the greatest intellect and powers ever known to man. Aside from his childhood, he has had tens of thousands of years in his prime to learn and experience just about anything mankind has ever come up with, as well as plenty of alien things as well. He has had children, loves, loss, and betrayal to deal with since the dawn of man. He understands mandkind's emotions, psychology and behavior as no one else could ever do. And he has guided mankind since the beginning, and as mankind first voyaged to the stars.

This lead to a utopian golden age, The Dark Age of Technology. Mankind spead to the stars. Different forms of governent existed. Robots (later called Iron Men) did most of the work, and fought the wars. Alien empires were treatied and traded with. People looked to science for thier answers instead of religion. Technology was made freely available with the Standard Template Construct. Psychic powers were proven to exist, and encouraged to develop on civilized worlds. Mankind started evolving into the psychic New Man.

Then the Iron Men rebelled. No one knows why. Perhaps they grew sentinent and resented being slaves like in Battle Star Galactica? Maybe Chaos infected them? Maybe the Emperor forsaw what was going to happen to the Eldar, and knew that the Human Empire must be destroyed least they suffer the same fate as the Eldar? Or maybe there was some kind of programming error that spead out of control by accident? Whatever the reason, the human race won the war, but at a huge cost, weakening Mankind greatly.

Then the warp storms came as Slannish was in the process of forming within the warp. Human psychers (New Man) were possesed and deamons appeared on civilized worlds. Hummanity was cut off from each other, and aliens invaded many of the weaker colonies. The Age of Strife where technology was lost and humanity destoyed itself. The Emperor forsaw the birth of Slannish, the doom of the Eldar race, and the clearing of the warp storms. He started his genetic reasearch.


This is where it gets very interesting... the Emperor had some real problems to deal with.

How can he help New Man to evolve, without Chaos gaining control?
How can he deal with the Tryanids? (He must be able to sense the Overmind, since they can sense the Astromonican.)
What can he do to defeat Chaos or at least gain some control of the warp?
How can he protect the New Man psychic humans souls that survive death?
How can he become more powerful, so as to accomplish these goals?
How can he unite the human race again?


The answer is in the Primarchs. Of course, the public reason for them is to expand the Empire as "Mini Me's", each one bearing a facet of the Emperors powers. They also facilitate quick replication of marines through gene seed. This allows the very rapid expansion of the Empire to occur in less than 200 years. Around a million worlds!

The problem is, the Emperor cannot just simply expand the Empire and bring it back to the Dark Age of Technology. He has been there, done that. As soon as humanity was freed of conflict and need, Chaos would just destroy it from within. As what happened to the Eldar. Idle hands are the work of the Devil... Once the Empire had been grown to it's maximum size, it must enter a state of conflict where people have little time to do anything but survive. However, the Empire must stay intact enough to allow mankind to survive against the many Aliens. The Alpha Legion works like the control rods in the Human reactor, sometimes destroying the Empire to help it remain ballenced, other times staying quiet or even fighting against the Empire's enemies.

The evolution of the Human race to New Man, must not destroy it. The Inquisition limits the damage done. Much like an exterminator, the Inquistion hunts down and destroys psychics. But just like bugs, that which survive the culling, psychers grow stronger and more resistant over the centuries. The strong psychers are allowed to live and breed. The weak are sent on the Black Ships to make the Emperor stonger. They are Soul Bound to the Emperor and become a part of him. It is unlikely that they would be able to survive the transition to souls in the warp after death, and not be eaten or enslaved by deamons, since they are realitively weak anyway. So, perhaps it is the best end possible...

The Emperor allowed the Primarchs to be stolen and sent to human worlds. Remember, he knows psycholgy and human behavior like nobody else can. He knew that some of his sons would be infected by Chaos. In fact, he was counting on it. Again, he could not simply go with the repeat of the Dark Age of Technology. He needed something to entice Chaos. A bit of slight of hand, while he worked his magic. After the initial expansion, the Primarchs would no longer be needed. The Primachs are a side show to attract the interest of Chaos and deflect it from himself. The former space marines battle among themselves and the Empire, creating much amusement for the Chaos gods. The loyal Primarchs have just disappered as they are not needed by the Emperor, and they await the final battle.

Which brings us to the Golden Throne, and the mortal wounds the Emperor suffers. No doubt, the wounds are real. Horus was exceedingly powerful, and backed by Chaos. They witnessed the battle though him. So, there could be no faking it. The Emperor truely suffers physically. But mentally, spiritually the Emperor has been freed from his body to persue his exploration and battles in that warp as he could not do so while remaining in his body. He can gather his army of psychic human souls surviving death. And he can travel and protect humanity in a way he never could while within his body.

The secret is of couse, that Roboute Guilliman's wound is healing within his stasis field. What secret power does he have? The ability to very quickly heal even Chaos infected wounds of course. Which is why he had to be placed in a stasis field. He would heal too quickly on his own, and the Emperor's own healing ability would be exposed. If true, then the Golden Throne is ment to act as a super stasis field to keep the Emperor from healing, and not to keep him alive. It's the ultimate fake out, and gets Chaos off his back. It must have took a huge force of will for the Emperor to prevent himself from healing untill he could be placed in stasis. Robert Guilliman too...

When the Golden Throne fails, the Emperor is going to rapidly heal, organize, and start kicking some butt. Which will be sorely needed as the Tyranids will probably be at Earths door. But first, expect Abbadon to break out of the Eye and take over for a while. Chaos needs to expend itself and it's planet destroyer against the Tyranids first.

As for the two missing Primarchs and legions. My guess is that one is clearing the human webway to allow the human fleets to move without the Astromomicon, and defeat the tryanids piecemeal in the human galaxy. While the other one is kicking butt on theTryanids home world, after a long deep space journey in stasis.


Thanks for reading! The posts of outrage and disbelief may now commence...

Warprat

Tyranids don't have "homeworld" as it were.

Warprat wrote:
Why did the Iron Men rebel?

You answer that question yourself.

Why did Chaos leave Man alone until the end of the Dark Age of Technology?

They weren't, reports of their attacks were dismissed as superstition.

Why is the Human race evolving into a psychic race?

That I don't know.

Chaos stole the Primarchs. How could that security breach be allowed to happen, with no explanation?

The Emperor conquered the better part of the galaxy after finding each Primarch one by one. Imagine how much stronger he would have been if he'd started out with all of them.

Why did the Emperor ignore the warning from Magnus the Red?

Becuase Magnus' warning destroyed the man-made webway, and the Emperor was busy saving the planet from deamonic infestation.

Why could Eldrad see Horus turning to Chaos, but the Emperor could not?

Eldrad is a Farseer. The Emperor, though a powerful psyker, likely doesn't have the same sort skill in that regard.

Why could the Cabal see the Horus turning, but not the Emperor.

Same reason. It never suggests that the Emperor can forsee the future. Why plan when you know what's going to happen? The Emperor was big on plans.

Is the Alpha Legion secretly loyal to the Emperor?

No.

Why is Roboute Guilliman's wound healing within the stasis field?

They're not. These are rumours from pilgrims.

Why have the loyal Primarchs each had a mysterious disapperance?

Becuase it is much cooler to have the legend of their reappearance, like the return of King Arthur, than saying "In the End he got shot in the face".

What is the condition of the Emperor's Webway?

gak. Thanks to Magnus.

What is the Legion of the Damned, how do they know where to go and how do they get there? Why are the Inquistion's investigations mysteriously blocked?

Warp dickery with loyalist marines.

What happened to the two unknown Primarchs and thier Legions?

Typical administratum record keeping.

Why could Man navigate the stars during the Great Crusade, and the Dark Age of Tchnology, but needs the Astronomican now?

Becuase of the destruction of the webway and the warp. Space Travel was always possible, just deamon dickery made it very difficult. The astromican clears it up.

The Emperor has been alive for around 50,000 years. Only the last 10,000 have been on the Golden Throne. He has been alive all that time, with the greatest intellect and powers ever known to man. Aside from his childhood, he has had tens of thousands of years in his prime to learn and experience just about anything mankind has ever come up with, as well as plenty of alien things as well. He has had children, loves, loss, and betrayal to deal with since the dawn of man. He understands mandkind's emotions, psychology and behavior as no one else could ever do. And he has guided mankind since the beginning, and as mankind first voyaged to the stars.

This lead to a utopian golden age, The Dark Age of Technology. Mankind spead to the stars. Different forms of governent existed. Robots (later called Iron Men) did most of the work, and fought the wars. Alien empires were treatied and traded with. People looked to science for thier answers instead of religion. Technology was made freely available with the Standard Template Construct. Psychic powers were proven to exist, and encouraged to develop on civilized worlds. Mankind started evolving into the psychic New Man.

Then the Iron Men rebelled. No one knows why. Perhaps they grew sentinent and resented being slaves like in Battle Star Galactica? Maybe Chaos infected them? Maybe the Emperor forsaw what was going to happen to the Eldar, and knew that the Human Empire must be destroyed least they suffer the same fate as the Eldar? Or maybe there was some kind of programming error that spead out of control by accident? Whatever the reason, the human race won the war, but at a huge cost, weakening Mankind greatly.

Then the warp storms came as Slannish was in the process of forming within the warp. Human psychers (New Man) were possesed and deamons appeared on civilized worlds. *snip* The Emperor forsaw the birth of Slannish, the doom of the Eldar race, and the clearing of the warp storms. He started his genetic reasearch.

Wrong, Slaanesh was birthed with the Fall of the Eldar, which happened many many years before the Age of Strife. Not the first case of deamonic possesion either. Deamon Hunter codex refers to ancient tomes that record ancient civilisations battling with creatures that Inquisitors can clear identify as denziens of the warp. Chaos never had a policy of 'leaving man alone' apart from when it escaped their notice.

The answer is in the Primarchs. Of course, the public reason for them is to expand the Empire as "Mini Me's", each one bearing a facet of the Emperors powers. They also facilitate quick replication of marines through gene seed. This allows the very rapid expansion of the Empire to occur in less than 200 years. Around a million worlds!

Actually closer to 2 million at the height of the crusades, but yes.

The problem is, the Emperor cannot just simply expand the Empire and bring it back to the Dark Age of Technology. He has been there, done that. As soon as humanity was freed of conflict and need, Chaos would just destroy it from within. As what happened to the Eldar. Idle hands are the work of the Devil... Once the Empire had been grown to it's maximum size, it must enter a state of conflict where people have little time to do anything but survive. However, the Empire must stay intact enough to allow mankind to survive against the many Aliens. The Alpha Legion works like the control rods in the Human reactor, sometimes destroying the Empire to help it remain ballenced, other times staying quiet or even fighting against the Empire's enemies.

Or they could just be dicking around like the Traitors they are. Where do people pull this Alpha Legion stuff from?

The evolution of the Human race to New Man, must not destroy it. The Inquisition limits the damage done. Much like an exterminator, the Inquistion hunts down and destroys psychics. But just like bugs, that which survive the culling, psychers grow stronger and more resistant over the centuries. The strong psychers are allowed to live and breed. The weak are sent on the Black Ships to make the Emperor stonger. They are Soul Bound to the Emperor and become a part of him. It is unlikely that they would be able to survive the transition to souls in the warp after death, and not be eaten or enslaved by deamons, since they are realitively weak anyway. So, perhaps it is the best end possible...

The Inquisition was not founded by the Emperor, and was born out of a healthy fear of psykers and the threat they pose. Any theories of the New Man are declared heretical writings and expunged. The Inquisition is hardly the 'nursemaid' of the birthing of the New Man.

The Emperor allowed the Primarchs to be stolen and sent to human worlds. Remember, he knows psycholgy and human behavior like nobody else can. He knew that some of his sons would be infected by Chaos. In fact, he was counting on it. Again, he could not simply go with the repeat of the Dark Age of Technology. He needed something to entice Chaos. A bit of slight of hand, while he worked his magic. After the initial expansion, the Primarchs would no longer be needed. The Primachs are a side show to attract the interest of Chaos and deflect it from himself. The former space marines battle among themselves and the Empire, creating much amusement for the Chaos gods. The loyal Primarchs have just disappered as they are not needed by the Emperor, and they await the final battle.

The loyal Primarchs were most likely killed or (in the White Scars case) enslaved in the webway.

Which brings us to the Golden Throne, and the mortal wounds the Emperor suffers. No doubt, the wounds are real. Horus was exceedingly powerful, and backed by Chaos. They witnessed the battle though him. So, there could be no faking it. The Emperor truely suffers physically. But mentally, spiritually the Emperor has been freed from his body to persue his exploration and battles in that warp as he could not do so while remaining in his body. He can gather his army of psychic human souls surviving death. And he can travel and protect humanity in a way he never could while within his body.

The secret is of couse, that Roboute Guilliman's wound is healing within his stasis field. What secret power does he have? The ability to very quickly heal even Chaos infected wounds of course. Which is why he had to be placed in a stasis field. He would heal too quickly on his own, and the Emperor's own healing ability would be exposed. If true, then the Golden Throne is ment to act as a super stasis field to keep the Emperor from healing, and not to keep him alive. It's the ultimate fake out, and gets Chaos off his back. It must have took a huge force of will for the Emperor to prevent himself from healing untill he could be placed in stasis. Robert Guilliman too...

You are putting an awful lot of faith on the mumbled rumour-mongering of pilgrims to Ultramar.

When the Golden Throne fails, the Emperor is going to rapidly heal, organize, and start kicking some butt.

When the Golden Throne fails the gak is going to hit the fan. The only defence against deamonic possesion of the man made webway will be destroyed, the astronomican will collapse and the Emperor will likely die.

Which will be sorely needed as the Tyranids will probably be at Earths door. But first, expect Abbadon to break out of the Eye and take over for a while. Chaos needs to expend itself and it's planet destroyer against the Tyranids first.

As for the two missing Primarchs and legions. My guess is that one is clearing the human webway to allow the human fleets to move without the Astromomicon, and defeat the tryanids piecemeal in the human galaxy. While the other one is kicking butt on theTryanids home world, after a long deep space journey in stasis.

1) How could 1 Legion Suceed in clearining the webway where the entire complement of Custodes and Sisters of Silence struggled to stem? (BTW, the Missing Legions were already missing by the time construction on the Human Webway began.
2) If the Tyranids do have a home world, they've no doubt left it an empty husk.


You really seem to think that the Emperor forsaw the Tyranid threat when no one (no one) else did. I don't know what the equivalent to a tin-foil hat is in the 40k universe, but you should be wearing it.

Interesting... very interesting. nice theory.

Golden Sabres wrote:Interesting... very interesting. nice theory.

Your avatar could not be more suitable than right now.

What can i say? i am always here at the right place and the right time.

TL;DR

Might do later.

But for now? I'll just say this:

GW made 40k Grimdark.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Warprat wrote:
Why did the Iron Men rebel?

You answer that question yourself.

Why did Chaos leave Man alone until the end of the Dark Age of Technology?

They weren't, reports of their attacks were dismissed as superstition.

Why is the Human race evolving into a psychic race?

That I don't know.

Chaos stole the Primarchs. How could that security breach be allowed to happen, with no explanation?

The Emperor conquered the better part of the galaxy after finding each Primarch one by one. Imagine how much stronger he would have been if he'd started out with all of them.

Why did the Emperor ignore the warning from Magnus the Red?

Becuase Magnus' warning destroyed the man-made webway, and the Emperor was busy saving the planet from deamonic infestation.

Why could Eldrad see Horus turning to Chaos, but the Emperor could not?

Eldrad is a Farseer. The Emperor, though a powerful psyker, likely doesn't have the same sort skill in that regard.

Why could the Cabal see the Horus turning, but not the Emperor.

Same reason. It never suggests that the Emperor can forsee the future. Why plan when you know what's going to happen? The Emperor was big on plans.

Is the Alpha Legion secretly loyal to the Emperor?

No.

Why is Roboute Guilliman's wound healing within the stasis field?

They're not. These are rumours from pilgrims.

Why have the loyal Primarchs each had a mysterious disapperance?

Becuase it is much cooler to have the legend of their reappearance, like the return of King Arthur, than saying "In the End he got shot in the face".

What is the condition of the Emperor's Webway?

gak. Thanks to Magnus.

What is the Legion of the Damned, how do they know where to go and how do they get there? Why are the Inquistion's investigations mysteriously blocked?

Warp dickery with loyalist marines.

What happened to the two unknown Primarchs and thier Legions?

Typical administratum record keeping.

Why could Man navigate the stars during the Great Crusade, and the Dark Age of Tchnology, but needs the Astronomican now?

Becuase of the destruction of the webway and the warp. Space Travel was always possible, just deamon dickery made it very difficult. The astromican clears it up.

The Emperor has been alive for around 50,000 years. Only the last 10,000 have been on the Golden Throne. He has been alive all that time, with the greatest intellect and powers ever known to man. Aside from his childhood, he has had tens of thousands of years in his prime to learn and experience just about anything mankind has ever come up with, as well as plenty of alien things as well. He has had children, loves, loss, and betrayal to deal with since the dawn of man. He understands mandkind's emotions, psychology and behavior as no one else could ever do. And he has guided mankind since the beginning, and as mankind first voyaged to the stars.

This lead to a utopian golden age, The Dark Age of Technology. Mankind spead to the stars. Different forms of governent existed. Robots (later called Iron Men) did most of the work, and fought the wars. Alien empires were treatied and traded with. People looked to science for thier answers instead of religion. Technology was made freely available with the Standard Template Construct. Psychic powers were proven to exist, and encouraged to develop on civilized worlds. Mankind started evolving into the psychic New Man.

Then the Iron Men rebelled. No one knows why. Perhaps they grew sentinent and resented being slaves like in Battle Star Galactica? Maybe Chaos infected them? Maybe the Emperor forsaw what was going to happen to the Eldar, and knew that the Human Empire must be destroyed least they suffer the same fate as the Eldar? Or maybe there was some kind of programming error that spead out of control by accident? Whatever the reason, the human race won the war, but at a huge cost, weakening Mankind greatly.

Then the warp storms came as Slannish was in the process of forming within the warp. Human psychers (New Man) were possesed and deamons appeared on civilized worlds. *snip* The Emperor forsaw the birth of Slannish, the doom of the Eldar race, and the clearing of the warp storms. He started his genetic reasearch.

Wrong, Slaanesh was birthed with the Fall of the Eldar, which happened many many years before the Age of Strife. Not the first case of deamonic possesion either. Deamon Hunter codex refers to ancient tomes that record ancient civilisations battling with creatures that Inquisitors can clear identify as denziens of the warp. Chaos never had a policy of 'leaving man alone' apart from when it escaped their notice.

The answer is in the Primarchs. Of course, the public reason for them is to expand the Empire as "Mini Me's", each one bearing a facet of the Emperors powers. They also facilitate quick replication of marines through gene seed. This allows the very rapid expansion of the Empire to occur in less than 200 years. Around a million worlds!

Actually closer to 2 million at the height of the crusades, but yes.

The problem is, the Emperor cannot just simply expand the Empire and bring it back to the Dark Age of Technology. He has been there, done that. As soon as humanity was freed of conflict and need, Chaos would just destroy it from within. As what happened to the Eldar. Idle hands are the work of the Devil... Once the Empire had been grown to it's maximum size, it must enter a state of conflict where people have little time to do anything but survive. However, the Empire must stay intact enough to allow mankind to survive against the many Aliens. The Alpha Legion works like the control rods in the Human reactor, sometimes destroying the Empire to help it remain ballenced, other times staying quiet or even fighting against the Empire's enemies.

Or they could just be dicking around like the Traitors they are. Where do people pull this Alpha Legion stuff from?

The evolution of the Human race to New Man, must not destroy it. The Inquisition limits the damage done. Much like an exterminator, the Inquistion hunts down and destroys psychics. But just like bugs, that which survive the culling, psychers grow stronger and more resistant over the centuries. The strong psychers are allowed to live and breed. The weak are sent on the Black Ships to make the Emperor stonger. They are Soul Bound to the Emperor and become a part of him. It is unlikely that they would be able to survive the transition to souls in the warp after death, and not be eaten or enslaved by deamons, since they are realitively weak anyway. So, perhaps it is the best end possible...

The Inquisition was not founded by the Emperor, and was born out of a healthy fear of psykers and the threat they pose. Any theories of the New Man are declared heretical writings and expunged. The Inquisition is hardly the 'nursemaid' of the birthing of the New Man.

The Emperor allowed the Primarchs to be stolen and sent to human worlds. Remember, he knows psycholgy and human behavior like nobody else can. He knew that some of his sons would be infected by Chaos. In fact, he was counting on it. Again, he could not simply go with the repeat of the Dark Age of Technology. He needed something to entice Chaos. A bit of slight of hand, while he worked his magic. After the initial expansion, the Primarchs would no longer be needed. The Primachs are a side show to attract the interest of Chaos and deflect it from himself. The former space marines battle among themselves and the Empire, creating much amusement for the Chaos gods. The loyal Primarchs have just disappered as they are not needed by the Emperor, and they await the final battle.

The loyal Primarchs were most likely killed or (in the White Scars case) enslaved in the webway.

Which brings us to the Golden Throne, and the mortal wounds the Emperor suffers. No doubt, the wounds are real. Horus was exceedingly powerful, and backed by Chaos. They witnessed the battle though him. So, there could be no faking it. The Emperor truely suffers physically. But mentally, spiritually the Emperor has been freed from his body to persue his exploration and battles in that warp as he could not do so while remaining in his body. He can gather his army of psychic human souls surviving death. And he can travel and protect humanity in a way he never could while within his body.

The secret is of couse, that Roboute Guilliman's wound is healing within his stasis field. What secret power does he have? The ability to very quickly heal even Chaos infected wounds of course. Which is why he had to be placed in a stasis field. He would heal too quickly on his own, and the Emperor's own healing ability would be exposed. If true, then the Golden Throne is ment to act as a super stasis field to keep the Emperor from healing, and not to keep him alive. It's the ultimate fake out, and gets Chaos off his back. It must have took a huge force of will for the Emperor to prevent himself from healing untill he could be placed in stasis. Robert Guilliman too...

You are putting an awful lot of faith on the mumbled rumour-mongering of pilgrims to Ultramar.

When the Golden Throne fails, the Emperor is going to rapidly heal, organize, and start kicking some butt.

When the Golden Throne fails the gak is going to hit the fan. The only defence against deamonic possesion of the man made webway will be destroyed, the astronomican will collapse and the Emperor will likely die.

Which will be sorely needed as the Tyranids will probably be at Earths door. But first, expect Abbadon to break out of the Eye and take over for a while. Chaos needs to expend itself and it's planet destroyer against the Tyranids first.

As for the two missing Primarchs and legions. My guess is that one is clearing the human webway to allow the human fleets to move without the Astromomicon, and defeat the tryanids piecemeal in the human galaxy. While the other one is kicking butt on theTryanids home world, after a long deep space journey in stasis.

1) How could 1 Legion Suceed in clearining the webway where the entire complement of Custodes and Sisters of Silence struggled to stem? (BTW, the Missing Legions were already missing by the time construction on the Human Webway began.
2) If the Tyranids do have a home world, they've no doubt left it an empty husk.


You really seem to think that the Emperor forsaw the Tyranid threat when no one (no one) else did. I don't know what the equivalent to a tin-foil hat is in the 40k universe, but you should be wearing it.

Thanks for your reponse...

My premiss is that GW wants to give us an ending where Man comes out on top, after a long struggle. I have given a plausable story as to how that can happen. They could simply go the easy route and invent something new that pulls humanities butt out of the fire. But I don't think so... The more elegant solution would be to have given us clues all along, and mightily twist our perception at the end with huge surprises.

The point to the mystery clues GW gives us is to invite speculation, not simply dismiss out of hand. To read between the lines of what is real and what is propaganda. Real life is not so black and white, governments really do shape the media and peoples's perception. The beauty of GW stories is that they do the same thing. GW gives us plenty of accounts where people came to the wrong conclusions, based on not having complete information. And they treat us no differently... It's much more fun that way!

I would be much more interested in reading your version of a story that lets mankind survive and come out on top, using as much fluff as possible. With some epic twists and whatnot. As an intellectual exercise... how would you do it?

Warprat

It's an interesting theory and a good read.

However, I was under the impression that Guilleman was placed in the stasis field to slow the taint of Chaos...

Sorry if I sounded like I dismissed it out of hand, but there were a few assumptions there that came in leaps and bounds.

Warprat wrote:
I would be much more interested in reading your version of a story that lets mankind survive and come out on top, using as much fluff as possible. With some epic twists and whatnot. As an intellectual exercise... how would you do it?

Warprat

Humanity's survival isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. The Imperium is on the verge of collapse thanks to the pressure of outside forces both alien and deamonic alike. When/If the Imperium finnally does crumple (which is looking more and more likely) a power vaccum is going to be made. All the enemies that the Imperium has fought to keep at bay for so long will come sweeping in. The Tau will likely expand and increase their empire in the Eastern Fringe tenfold, if not wiped out by the Tyranid threat. Chaos will throw the West into dissarray, and Orks will expand and infest much of the others areas. But the Imperiums fall or collapse could also be its salvation. Who are these alien races going to fight against, if not the Imperium? Each other. Ork, Tyranid, Necron, Chaos, Eldar and Tau will be fighting tooth and claw over the remnants, leaving humanity (or the Imperium if it still retains some authority) to struggle in keeping alive. Instead of the Imperium being weakened by stronger and more ever more powerful foes, it will be the foes who are wasting their strength against one another.

No doubt the Imperium will retain but a fraction of its territory. Perhaps 100,000 worlds rather than 1,000,000. But, unless Terra falls, it would likely still exist. And when the storm has passed, when the foes are too weak to simply brush the rest of mankind away at a whim, then the resurgance may begin.

Of course, GW isn't likely to move the storyline that much forward at all.

Amaya wrote:It's an interesting theory and a good read.

However, I was under the impression that Guilleman was placed in the stasis field to slow the taint of Chaos...

Not really, the Ultramarines Primarch was kept in the stasis field to preserve his very dead corpse. It's a relic of sorts.

Amaya wrote:It's an interesting theory and a good read.

However, I was under the impression that Guilleman was placed in the stasis field to slow the taint of Chaos...

Yep, everyone believes he is on the verge of death because he was poisoned by a Chaos weapon. The fluff states that some people believe he is slowly (very slowly) healing within the stasis field. Most believe that the Emperor is somehow healing him.

Based on the stasis healing, my alternate theory is that he was in no danger of dying, and would have regenerated with a super regeneration power. A power that he must share with the Emperor. To protect the Emperor's secret, he was placed in stasis, least Chaos discover that the Emperor need not be in the Golden Throne.

Warprat


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Humanity's survival isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. The Imperium is on the verge of collapse thanks to the pressure of outside forces both alien and deamonic alike. When/If the Imperium finnally does crumple (which is looking more and more likely) a power vaccum is going to be made. All the enemies that the Imperium has fought to keep at bay for so long will come sweeping in. The Tau will likely expand and increase their empire in the Eastern Fringe tenfold, if not wiped out by the Tyranid threat. Chaos will throw the West into dissarray, and Orks will expand and infest much of the others areas. But the Imperiums fall or collapse could also be its salvation. Who are these alien races going to fight against, if not the Imperium? Each other. Ork, Tyranid, Necron, Chaos, Eldar and Tau will be fighting tooth and claw over the remnants, leaving humanity (or the Imperium if it still retains some authority) to struggle in keeping alive. Instead of the Imperium being weakened by stronger and more ever more powerful foes, it will be the foes who are wasting their strength against one another.

No doubt the Imperium will retain but a fraction of its territory. Perhaps 100,000 worlds rather than 1,000,000. But, unless Terra falls, it would likely still exist. And when the storm has passed, when the foes are too weak to simply brush the rest of mankind away at a whim, then the resurgance may begin.

Of course, GW isn't likely to move the storyline that much forward at all.

I absolutely agree on the "it's always darkest before the dawn" story line. But I don't believe GW will kill off any of the enemies completly. Nor will they make everthing come out all rosey for the humans.

I suspect that as the Astronomican fails, Chaos will escape the Eye and bring many systems under it's control as the Empire fears the Emperor's death and there is a power vacuum. The planet killer will be used to destroy worlds that the Tryanids attempt to devour, killing them before they can feed, but after they have expended energy taking the system. Chaos will want to defend the prize it just won from the Emperor. The Tryanids will win with heavy losses, with Chaos driven back into the Eye.

The Astronomican will continue to attract the Tyranids, until it finally dies as the Tyranids finally enter Earths solar system. Then the Emperor will wake up, heal and do battle with the Hive Mind. The webway will be opened up to reinforce the Earth fleet from other systems, the missing Primarchs leading them, resulting in a victory for the Empire. Expect a Legendary Character expansion, though they might not live beyond the battle. Tyranid splinter fleets will continue thier attacks as usual.

New Man (psychers) will be allowed to develop as Chaos will have been dealt a major blow, resulting in far less deamonic possesions. The Emperor's Spiritual army will be introduced by GW to guard humanities souls. It will contain various heavenly hosts, much like the deamon army.

The Necrons will be the next major threat to Humanity (Humanity designed by the Old Ones to eventually fight Necrons.) The webway and increasing psychic numbers will be instrumental in the fight against them.


Edit: Hmmm, might be an even better story if Abaddon was going to destroy Earth under the Tyranid Starvation Plan. That would get the Primarchs, both loyal and traitor fighting each other.

Warprat wrote:
I absolutely agree on the "it's always darkest before the dawn" story line. But I don't believe GW will kill off any of the enemies completly. Nor will they make everthing come out all rosey for the humans.

Well actually, that little scenario there didn't kill any race of. It just made them all more powerful at the Imperium's expense.

The Astronomican will continue to attract the Tyranids, until it finally dies as the Tyranids finally enter Earths solar system. Then the Emperor will wake up, heal and do battle with the Hive Mind. The webway will be opened up to reinforce the Earth fleet from other systems, the missing Primarchs leading them, resulting in a victory for the Empire. Expect a Legendary Character expansion, though they might not live beyond the battle. Tyranid splinter fleets will continue thier attacks as usual.

New Man (psychers) will be allowed to develop as Chaos will have been dealt a major blow, resulting in far less deamonic possesions. The Emperor's Spiritual army will be introduced by GW to guard humanities souls. It will contain various heavenly hosts, much like the deamon army.

The Necrons will be the next major threat to Humanity (Humanity designed by the Old Ones to eventually fight Necrons.) The webway and increasing psychic numbers will be instrumental in the fight against them.


Edit: Hmmm, might be an even better story if Abaddon was going to destroy Earth under the Tyranid Starvation Plan. That would get the Primarchs, both loyal and traitor fighting each other.

Can I just ask where you are getting this healing stuff from?
And why does the man-made webway suddenly work?

Warprat wrote:The Astronomican will continue to attract the Tyranids, until it finally dies as the Tyranids finally enter Earths solar system. Then the Emperor will wake up, heal and do battle with the Hive Mind. The webway will be opened up to reinforce the Earth fleet from other systems, the missing Primarchs leading them, resulting in a victory for the Empire. Expect a Legendary Character expansion, though they might not live beyond the battle. Tyranid splinter fleets will continue thier attacks as usual.

New Man (psychers) will be allowed to develop as Chaos will have been dealt a major blow, resulting in far less deamonic possesions. The Emperor's Spiritual army will be introduced by GW to guard humanities souls. It will contain various heavenly hosts, much like the deamon army.

The Necrons will be the next major threat to Humanity (Humanity designed by the Old Ones to eventually fight Necrons.) The webway and increasing psychic numbers will be instrumental in the fight against them.


Edit: Hmmm, might be an even better story if Abaddon was going to destroy Earth under the Tyranid Starvation Plan. That would get the Primarchs, both loyal and traitor fighting each other.

How are increasing psychic numbers going to help against the necrons? They have no psychic presence. Because they are freaking MACHINES.

You guys do realise that when the astronomican fails, Holy Terra will suffer the greatest chaos incursion in the galaxy.

EDIT: Brunius, Necrodermis is extremely vulnerable to warp energy, hence, when the warps around the C'tan don't like to play.

Firstly you're not insane just misguided....
Sedcondly, would agree with other posters but maybe directly addressing your points is preferrable?

Warprat wrote:

Real life reasons:

1) The Empire and The Emperor are the heros and focus of Games Workshop, everything revolves around that.
2) Epic stories must have heros and villlians, a struggle between right and wrong, and the tranformation of the hero through personal suffering.
3) Most people want the heros to win.
4) Cliff hangers make for great stories, and 10,000 years is a great cliff hanger.

Agreed.

Warprat wrote:
That got me thinking. How can that possibly happen with the story GW has cooked up? The Heresy, with only the evil Primarchs left alive. The Emperor practically dead on the Golden Throne. The Empire on the ropes, besieged on all sides. An impossible to stop army of Tyranids aimed at Earth. I mean talk about depressing... How can GW possibly have Man come out on top? It seems impossible!

GW may have driven themselves into a dead end, but this can and will be solved.
1) good Primarchs are alive too.
2) no army is impossible to stop.
3) fear not! Look up page 116 BRB. Ultimate victory of Mankind is inevitable.

Warprat wrote:
So I started looking for the clues... the unexplained stuff.

Why did the Iron Men rebel?
Why did Chaos leave Man alone until the end of the Dark Age of Technology?
Why is the Human race evolving into a psychic race?
Chaos stole the Primarchs. How could that security breach be allowed to happen, with no explanation?
Why did the Emperor ignore the warning from Magnus the Red?
Why could Eldrad see Horus turning to Chaos, but the Emperor could not?
Why could the Cabal see the Horus turning, but not the Emperor.
Is the Alpha Legion secretly loyal to the Emperor?
Why is Roboute Guilliman's wound healing within the stasis field?
Why have the loyal Primarchs each had a mysterious disapperance?
What is the condition of the Emperor's Webway?
What is the Legion of the Damned, how do they know where to go and how do they get there? Why are the Inquistion's investigations mysteriously blocked?
What happened to the two unknown Primarchs and thier Legions?
Why could Man navigate the stars during the Great Crusade, and the Dark Age of Tchnology, but needs the Astronomican now?

Soo many questions...
- iron men did rebel => virus? lack of the rules other sci fi authors gave to AI's? C'tan reprogrammed them?
- chaos did never leave any race alone, they may ignore the blue-greys yet but humans always had psykers.
- either natural or artificial evolution.
- chaos maybe failed to destroy them and the emergency routines sent the Primarchs to the nearest Human population?
- He tried to save Horus even in the final fight in one of the descriptions and maybe was too busy to care for the complaints.
- space elfs specify on this. And Eldrad was also too late so maybe chaos allowed him to see and fail.....
- the cabal surely was tricked.
- unlikely.
- rumors, not facts.
- because they had to go, as humans started to worship them like demi gods and they have seen what happened with the rise of the imperial cult.
- sealed.
- The LoD are *+++* and they know where to go because *+++* and thus we know the Inquisition doesn't know everything...
- reds8n hinted at more info in upcoming HH novels. Wait and see...
- the astronomican is a focus, to navigate without is not impossible. Dark age of tech may had a technical solution instead of navigators.
And the crusade used navigators.

Warprat wrote:
The Emperor has been alive for around 50,000 years. Only the last 10,000 have been on the Golden Throne. He has been alive all that time, with the greatest intellect and powers ever known to man. Aside from his childhood, he has had tens of thousands of years in his prime to learn and experience just about anything mankind has ever come up with, as well as plenty of alien things as well. He has had children, loves, loss, and betrayal to deal with since the dawn of man. He understands mandkind's emotions, psychology and behavior as no one else could ever do. And he has guided mankind since the beginning, and as mankind first voyaged to the stars.

This lead to a utopian golden age, The Dark Age of Technology. Mankind spead to the stars. Different forms of governent existed. Robots (later called Iron Men) did most of the work, and fought the wars. Alien empires were treatied and traded with. People looked to science for thier answers instead of religion. Technology was made freely available with the Standard Template Construct. Psychic powers were proven to exist, and encouraged to develop on civilized worlds. Mankind started evolving into the psychic New Man.

Then the Iron Men rebelled. No one knows why. Perhaps they grew sentinent and resented being slaves like in Battle Star Galactica? Maybe Chaos infected them? Maybe the Emperor forsaw what was going to happen to the Eldar, and knew that the Human Empire must be destroyed least they suffer the same fate as the Eldar? Or maybe there was some kind of programming error that spead out of control by accident? Whatever the reason, the human race won the war, but at a huge cost, weakening Mankind greatly.

Then the warp storms came as Slannish was in the process of forming within the warp. Human psychers (New Man) were possesed and deamons appeared on civilized worlds. Hummanity was cut off from each other, and aliens invaded many of the weaker colonies. The Age of Strife where technology was lost and humanity destoyed itself. The Emperor forsaw the birth of Slannish, the doom of the Eldar race, and the clearing of the warp storms. He started his genetic reasearch.

Most of the past of the Emperor is old fluff. No guarantee GW keeps it.
Have to disagree with your timeline.
The Emperor isn't one who foresaw things. He used scientists, knowledge and planning.
If GW wanted a change without much collateral damage, the Emperor could be a last effort creation of the DAoT to save humanitys future as the leaders failed and led into the Age of strife so a superior leader would end the infighting and his longevity would provide the needed scope to see plan come to fruitation.

Warprat wrote:
How can he help New Man to evolve, without Chaos gaining control?
How can he deal with the Tryanids? (He must be able to sense the Overmind, since they can sense the Astromonican.)
What can he do to defeat Chaos or at least gain some control of the warp?
How can he protect the New Man psychic humans souls that survive death?
How can he become more powerful, so as to accomplish these goals?
How can he unite the human race again?

- chain chaos into the warp? Looks like a deal with the C'tan may achieve this...
- nids aren't a theme in HH background. How do we know if anyone was aware at M30?
- calm the empyrean.
- did he need more power?
- why do it twice if you can do it successfully ? The crusade was the unification.

Warprat wrote:
The answer is in the Primarchs. Of course, the public reason for them is to expand the Empire as "Mini Me's", each one bearing a facet of the Emperors powers. They also facilitate quick replication of marines through gene seed. This allows the very rapid expansion of the Empire to occur in less than 200 years. Around a million worlds!

The problem is, the Emperor cannot just simply expand the Empire and bring it back to the Dark Age of Technology. He has been there, done that. As soon as humanity was freed of conflict and need, Chaos would just destroy it from within. As what happened to the Eldar. Idle hands are the work of the Devil... Once the Empire had been grown to it's maximum size, it must enter a state of conflict where people have little time to do anything but survive. However, the Empire must stay intact enough to allow mankind to survive against the many Aliens. The Alpha Legion works like the control rods in the Human reactor, sometimes destroying the Empire to help it remain ballenced, other times staying quiet or even fighting against the Empire's enemies.

The evolution of the Human race to New Man, must not destroy it. The Inquisition limits the damage done. Much like an exterminator, the Inquistion hunts down and destroys psychics. But just like bugs, that which survive the culling, psychers grow stronger and more resistant over the centuries. The strong psychers are allowed to live and breed. The weak are sent on the Black Ships to make the Emperor stonger. They are Soul Bound to the Emperor and become a part of him. It is unlikely that they would be able to survive the transition to souls in the warp after death, and not be eaten or enslaved by deamons, since they are realitively weak anyway. So, perhaps it is the best end possible...

The Emperor allowed the Primarchs to be stolen and sent to human worlds. Remember, he knows psycholgy and human behavior like nobody else can. He knew that some of his sons would be infected by Chaos. In fact, he was counting on it. Again, he could not simply go with the repeat of the Dark Age of Technology. He needed something to entice Chaos. A bit of slight of hand, while he worked his magic. After the initial expansion, the Primarchs would no longer be needed. The Primachs are a side show to attract the interest of Chaos and deflect it from himself. The former space marines battle among themselves and the Empire, creating much amusement for the Chaos gods. The loyal Primarchs have just disappered as they are not needed by the Emperor, and they await the final battle.

Which brings us to the Golden Throne, and the mortal wounds the Emperor suffers. No doubt, the wounds are real. Horus was exceedingly powerful, and backed by Chaos. They witnessed the battle though him. So, there could be no faking it. The Emperor truely suffers physically. But mentally, spiritually the Emperor has been freed from his body to persue his exploration and battles in that warp as he could not do so while remaining in his body. He can gather his army of psychic human souls surviving death. And he can travel and protect humanity in a way he never could while within his body.

The secret is of couse, that Roboute Guilliman's wound is healing within his stasis field. What secret power does he have? The ability to very quickly heal even Chaos infected wounds of course. Which is why he had to be placed in a stasis field. He would heal too quickly on his own, and the Emperor's own healing ability would be exposed. If true, then the Golden Throne is ment to act as a super stasis field to keep the Emperor from healing, and not to keep him alive. It's the ultimate fake out, and gets Chaos off his back. It must have took a huge force of will for the Emperor to prevent himself from healing untill he could be placed in stasis. Robert Guilliman too...

Interesting read.
But I also disagree on that motivation and healing you suggest in it.

Warprat wrote:
When the Golden Throne fails, the Emperor is going to rapidly heal, organize, and start kicking some butt. Which will be sorely needed as the Tyranids will probably be at Earths door. But first, expect Abbadon to break out of the Eye and take over for a while. Chaos needs to expend itself and it's planet destroyer against the Tyranids first.

As for the two missing Primarchs and legions. My guess is that one is clearing the human webway to allow the human fleets to move without the Astromomicon, and defeat the tryanids piecemeal in the human galaxy. While the other one is kicking butt on theTryanids home world, after a long deep space journey in stasis.

The Emperor as counterpart to the demons would fit. But Abby will never aim at anything except Terra. Would bet on necrons killing the nid-fleets.


So GW wants the eternal war but cannot afford a winner.
The Emperor, primarchs and C'tan are to powerful to be in the game, so fluff will stay their home.

Henners91 wrote:TL;DR

Might do later.

But for now? I'll just say this:

GW made 40k Grimdark.

exactly.

Intresting theory.

The Ultramarines' Primarch is going to die out of Stasis, he is not healing. When(not if, When) the Golden Throne Breaks, The Emprah will die and the Imperium will ( Hopefully collapse ) take a really hard hit from thier God Dying( even though he really isn't and never wanted to be worshipped as one, but humans had to feth that up) and everything shutting down that he controlled through the Golden Throne.

I do have a question about the two missing Legions, because it says they did something bad enough to be striken from records, but what could be worse than what Horus did?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:The Ultramarines' Primarch is going to die out of Stasis, he is not healing. When(not if, When) the Golden Throne Breaks, The Emprah will die and the Imperium will ( Hopefully collapse ) take a really hard hit from thier God Dying( even though he really isn't and never wanted to be worshipped as one, but humans had to feth that up) and everything shutting down that he controlled through the Golden Throne.

I do have a question about the two missing Legions, because it says they did something bad enough to be striken from records, but what could be worse than what Horus did?

Only the Emperor can make the edict to remove the records on the Legions, him being a bit indisposed, is why the other traitor legions are still there and are only declared traitoris extremis. If the Emperor was still kicking about then there would only be 10 known first founding legions

The Golden Throne is already failing and the Mechanicum can't fix it hooray

I like the theory and i kinda hope your right if im honest.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:The Ultramarines' Primarch is going to die out of Stasis, he is not healing. When(not if, When) the Golden Throne Breaks, The Emprah will die and the Imperium will ( Hopefully collapse ) take a really hard hit from thier God Dying( even though he really isn't and never wanted to be worshipped as one, but humans had to feth that up) and everything shutting down that he controlled through the Golden Throne.

I do have a question about the two missing Legions, because it says they did something bad enough to be striken from records, but what could be worse than what Horus did?

Only the Emperor can make the edict to remove the records on the Legions, him being a bit indisposed, is why the other traitor legions are still there and are only declared traitoris extremis. If the Emperor was still kicking about then there would only be 10 known first founding legions

The Golden Throne is already failing and the Mechanicum can't fix it hooray

Now this brings up a Hypothetical. Would the Imperium just kill every Loyalist Human that knew about the traitors if he lived, or would they just deny they existed from that day on and leave it at that had the Emperor lived?

Depends. If a world finds out, it is "quarantined", however, if it was just a single person or a group, one of five things would happen:

1. Bolt pistol to the face.
2. Laspistol to the face.
3. Flamer to the face (in the case of the SoB).
4. Exterminatus to the face (on a barren planet of course, don't wanna be wasteful).
5. If the person was a particularly loyal subject, he can decide to instead get his memory wiped.

Most of the time, it is option 1 to 4.

And btw, the Emperor isn't dying. In the event the Golden Throne fails, two things could happen:
1. He would reincarnate. Supposedly part of the Emperpor's soul was cast out into the warp when he killed Horus (these parts of his souls was his compassion, love, etc).
2. He would be revived by the Illuminati. Either way, someone is going to get his ass whooped by Chuck Norris.

But what about those people that fought and(in this case) won ( I call the Siege of Terra a Tie because of what happened to the Emperor) alongside the Emperor? The Guys that just yesterday gunned down Khorne Berzerkers, then when home for a lovely dinner with the wife and family, maybe some sort of roast. Would they clock in for Cleanup Duty tomorrow, only to find out what was being cleaned up was, not the battlefield, but anyone that survived, save of course the important people?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:But what about those people that fought and(in this case) won ( I call the Siege of Terra a Tie because of what happened to the Emperor) alongside the Emperor? The Guys that just yesterday gunned down Khorne Berzerkers, then when home for a lovely dinner with the wife and family, maybe some sort of roast. Would they clock in for Cleanup Duty tomorrow, only to find out what was being cleaned up was, not the battlefield, but anyone that survived, save of course the important people?

That's different. Those people fighting beside him would be the IG and SM's. Unless, you mean like, civillian militia's? They get exterminated by the Inquisition afterwards for the Greater Good. This is why Space Marine chapters often hate the inquisition. For example, the Space Wolves in the... was it the Gothic sector??? Anyways, Space Wolves hate the inquisition because the civilians they were fighting beside who they considered brothers were killed as was standard procedure.

Space Marines are filed under Important.

Imperial Guard are filed under Witness.

Edit: IG can also be found under replaceable.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Imperial Guard are filed under Witness.

Edit: IG can also be found under replaceable.

Actually, Imperial Guard, after they finish training, are told on day one that Chaos exist.

Wait Seriously? That brings up a new question. "If something doesn't exist, why do I have to be told it does not exist?"

Golden Sabres wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Imperial Guard are filed under Witness.

Edit: IG can also be found under replaceable.

Actually, Imperial Guard, after they finish training, are told on day one that Chaos exist.

What? No.

Not as part of any official training progrom or anything at least. That would defeat the whole purpose.

Cadians mate, Cadians.

im sorry if someone already mentioned this i couldnt read the whole thing i was too long, but how come you dont mention necrons at all? i mena, the void dragon is right next to terra (literaly)