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DarkHound wrote:Wazdakka Gutsmek 180
Big Mek, KFF, BP, 90
14 Tank Bustas, 3 Bomb Squigs, 225
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 3 Rokkits, 250
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 3 Rokkits, 250
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 3 Rokkits, 250
5 Warbikers, Nob, PK, BP, 165
2 Deffkoptas, TL-Rokkits, 90
1500

And Long Fangs thought they were cool. Psshh, buncha whiny runts wot eat dog food. That is how you run missile launchers.

I don't know why you'd get Bomb Squigs on Tank bustas if you weren't getting Tank Hammers or a Nob. You have to forgo shooting in order to use the Bomb Squigs, in which case it seems to me you'd be better off just buying another Tankbusta and capping it out at 15 for the same cost.

Edit: I also think you might as well forgo Wazdakka and just grab 9 Kanz with Rokkits. It'd get you more Rokkits (your mandate) and more Strength 8 firepower in the long run. In fact, just scrapping Waz and the Warbikers would get you enough for 2 full Kan units with Rokkits, which you could then use as a mobile 4+ cover save for your Boyz.

Has anyone ever tried rokkits on trukks?

earlofburger wrote:Has anyone ever tried rokkits on trukks?

never worked for me so i stuck to the cheapish trukks

As someone who has played a green tide list.

Rokkits work great when you have about 3-6 squads of 30 orks with 3 rokkits each, backed up by loota's and tankbusters with even more rokkits and dakkaguns.

I have rokkits on my Grot tanks (5 bs3 shots), though I've recently upgraded them to Mega Blastas to deny FNP and kill 'dem termie boyz.

Though being fully aware that the vast majority don't even know the rules for grot tanks...

I'd use them on Kanz, where they can be TL (TL does indeed provide a slightly higher hit ratio), and Tankbustas.

Tankbustas are an arguably expensive sink, however. I'd balk at not giving them a nob (cheapest powerklaw in the codex), who you can use to release the Bomb squigs. Tank hammers are great, but you're reducing your rokkit fire power. A mob of 13 (with a nob) will hit, on average, four times, which is enough to scare AV10-AV12.

But for the expense of it... I'd rather just try to rely on Klaws, Kanz, Lootas, and the spiky end of the Deffrolla.

Kharrak wrote:I have rokkits on my Grot tanks (5 bs3 shots), though I've recently upgraded them to Mega Blastas to deny FNP and kill 'dem termie boyz.

It turns out that as long as you can instant kill the model, you already deny FnP. So if you used a Strength 8 Rokkit, for instance, on a T4 Death Company model, it will not get its FnP save.

TedNugent wrote:

Kharrak wrote:I have rokkits on my Grot tanks (5 bs3 shots), though I've recently upgraded them to Mega Blastas to deny FNP and kill 'dem termie boyz.

It turns out that as long as you can instant kill the model, you already deny FnP. So if you used a Strength 8 Rokkit, for instance, on a T4 Death Company model, it will not get its FnP save.

Oh, I'm fully aware - but it str 8 alone wont deny FNP to things with t5+
Additionally, as I said, for killing 'dem termies. Denying that 2+ save, AND causing ID if I happen to be firing at Paladins (as an example).

Bloody Paladins :(

Kharrak wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Kharrak wrote:I have rokkits on my Grot tanks (5 bs3 shots), though I've recently upgraded them to Mega Blastas to deny FNP and kill 'dem termie boyz.

It turns out that as long as you can instant kill the model, you already deny FnP. So if you used a Strength 8 Rokkit, for instance, on a T4 Death Company model, it will not get its FnP save.

Oh, I'm fully aware - but it str 8 alone wont deny FNP to things with t5+
Additionally, as I said, for killing 'dem termies. Denying that 2+ save, AND causing ID if I happen to be firing at Paladins (as an example).

Bloody Paladins :(

That's true, they are jerks.

You could always use DCCWs or Power Klaws on Pallies if all else fails.

TedNugent wrote:You could always use DCCWs or Power Klaws on Pallies if all else fails.

That implies I would have to get into close combat with them. With hammerhand and power weapons that hit at initiative, I'm not gonna do that with *anything* if I'm going to help it :p

Kharrak wrote:

TedNugent wrote:You could always use DCCWs or Power Klaws on Pallies if all else fails.

That implies I would have to get into close combat with them. With hammerhand and power weapons that hit at initiative, I'm not gonna do that with *anything* if I'm going to help it :p

You could use Deff Dreads instead. Even with Hammerhand he can't touch AV12. At least not until init 1.

edit: believe it or not you could also use Nobs. With their invul save and their WS 5 and high base attacks, you can get in enough Power Klaw attacks on the charge to really devastate Paladins cost-for-cost. Obviously you would lose some models, but you could use less expensive Nobs to sustain the wounds while throwing out high strength attacks in reserve at init 1.

In fact the real problem for Nobz and Boyz etc is actually Purifiers because of their vastly reduced cost. Paladins, when faced up against Power Klaws, are really just expensive Purifiers with an invulnerable save. Particularly because the Paladins actually have to choose between Hammer Hand and activating their force weapon. Am I correct about that, or does the Brotherhood Banner make the Force weapon activation not count as a Psychic power?

I just don't see anything particularly terrifying about Paladins in CC versus Orks. The sheer number of Power Klaws and DCCWs you could hypothetically bring to bear should kill a high volume of Purifiers, which in turn should just massacre his points. I mean, check out the butcher's bill from 3 Power Klaws against a unit of Paladins. The number of casualties don't sound that scary until you realize what they cost.

Given the cost margins if you multi assaulted with a couple of Kan units, even, 9 S10 Power attacks on the charge per unit?

Paladins will slaughter a unit of nobz. Keep in mind that they have 2++ and 4++ saves in close combat, are WS5 themselves and bring a truckload of attacks to bear. You will usually not take down more than one or two paladins and lose your entire unit in return. Due to their volume of attacks, you might not even be able to keep your PKs alive. Gk terminators already make a mess out of nobz, Paladins are even worse. Seven to eight models are not going to hold their ground against fifteen to thirty attacks each causing instant-death, 5++ or not.
The purifiers comparison is lacking. Paladins do not lose their NFW when buying gear, they can have brotherhood banner, WS5 and have 4++ saves when keeping their swords. The banner just makes their FW activation always successful, in addition to adding an attack.
If purifiers had three attacks each and were all holding NFW, they would kick nobz' faces in, too.

The same for the deff dread, even if you bought both DCCWs, you are usually just killing one or two paladins before losing the dread to S10 hammers.

A draigowing also pretty much requires their namesake Draigo who can add a second hammer hand, as well as force at least some models to attack him instead of the paladins. And he isn't exactly weak in combat either.

Killa kanz hit Paladins on 5+, due to WS2 vs WS5. Not a good idea, but better than most. The downfall of Kanz is that both psyflemen and psycannon rip right through them.

Wow 2 year old post coming back to life... I was reading this wonder when the hell did I say that and wow how my opinions changed. Rokkit Buggies all the way!

Buggies are cheaper than koptas, and there is a detail that everyone misses.

Deffkoptas are T4-5, Warbuggies are av10 (Or T10) and they have a damage chart, meaning that if someone actually does get through the Av-T10, there is a chance it will be insignificant and the buggy can still wreak bloody havoc!

10 points cheaper than a rokkit-kopta, double the Toughness, damage chart. I would say that is a steal of a bargain.

Also, buggies of equal price can ignore stunned, or maybe re-roll dangerous terrain and repair immobilized!

I am listing all these things, and I field 9 rokkit-koptas with success as mobile AT-Turrets that can always fly from trouble and perch in odd locations.

Yeah.. sorry about the threadromancy but this article was in the 40k / Dakka Tactics and I just felt it was missing some buggy love for a rokkit comparison tactica... its not neccassarily that the rokkit buggies are the best platform (though they don't come much better), its the added bonus's that they bring to the party.

Well it's not like there's been a new Ork Codex in the last 2 years... Still all relevent stuff.

Jidmah wrote:Paladins will slaughter a unit of nobz. Keep in mind that they have 2++ and 4++ saves in close combat, are WS5 themselves and bring a truckload of attacks to bear. You will usually not take down more than one or two paladins and lose your entire unit in return. Due to their volume of attacks, you might not even be able to keep your PKs alive. Gk terminators already make a mess out of nobz, Paladins are even worse. Seven to eight models are not going to hold their ground against fifteen to thirty attacks each causing instant-death, 5++ or not.
The purifiers comparison is lacking. Paladins do not lose their NFW when buying gear, they can have brotherhood banner, WS5 and have 4++ saves when keeping their swords. The banner just makes their FW activation always successful, in addition to adding an attack.
If purifiers had three attacks each and were all holding NFW, they would kick nobz' faces in, too.

The same for the deff dread, even if you bought both DCCWs, you are usually just killing one or two paladins before losing the dread to S10 hammers.

A draigowing also pretty much requires their namesake Draigo who can add a second hammer hand, as well as force at least some models to attack him instead of the paladins. And he isn't exactly weak in combat either.

Killa kanz hit Paladins on 5+, due to WS2 vs WS5. Not a good idea, but better than most. The downfall of Kanz is that both psyflemen and psycannon rip right through them.

Pretty much exactly all of this.

I have experienced paladins in a 2v2 - they shrugged off fire from kannons, rokkits, shootas, big shootas, blasters, and dark lance fire, and then simply proceeded to eat through 6 kanz, 30 boyz, two nobs, 10 wyches, and still emerged victorious, with three models left.

I *never* want to get into combat with them. Thus str8 ap2 Kustom Mega Blastass

It will at least allow me to thin the horde just that little bit.

Why not both ? More targets fof the enemy to worry about and if he's shooting your buggies or worrying about that copter thats behinf his tank he's not shooting your boyz or your nobz buggies and copters combined are to much of a fast mobile threat to be ignored equip a single buggy with a scorcha and when one of those transports pops you can make the occupants do the burney dance :-D

Lucid wrote:

DarkHound wrote:unless you're firing Rokkits out of every orifice, you don't have enough.

I'd like to see that

Ok, so these are the Big Shoota version

Give me 6 Paladins.

1 Apothecary, BHB (155 pts)
1 Paladin, MC NF Hammer, Psycannon (80 pts)
1 Paladin, MC NWS (80 pts)
1 Paladin, MC NFS (60 pts)
1 Paladin, MC NF Halberd (60 pts)
1 Paladin, MC NF Halberd (60 pts)

That's 495 pts. For six models.

Give me ten Nobz. 4 Klaws, 3 Big Choppas, BP, Waagh Banner.

Klaws 100 pts
Banner 15
BCs 15
PB 30
BP 5
10 Nobz 250

415 pts.

Let's say you charge.



In other words, the squad is wiped out for the negligible cost of roughly 6 Nobz. 160 or so points versus 495 pts.

What does this tell you? Does this mean that Nobz are superior to Paladins? No. Does it mean that Nobz can beat Paladins? No. It means that you shouldn't be afraid to assault Paladins with Nobz if you have a sufficient volume of Power Klaws. Add a Warboss or Ghazghkull Thraka for greater success, or if using smaller Nob Squads, multi assault, even better, multi assault in conjunction with Killa Kans and Deff Dreads.

You might say, what if he uses Draigo? So the !@#$ what? That's 275 additional points. For that cost you could easily multi assault with 3 units of 3 Kanz and add a Deff Dread in for good measure. You could even multi assault with 2 Deff Dreads. Multi assaults swing the balance even more in your favor because you are slanting one combat resolution. For 495 points you could assault with 3 units of 3 Kans. The options for Ork lists here for dealing with this unit in CC are pretty substantial.

And I don't get this notion that, oh no, the Paladins might shoot us. They have a few Storm Bolters, or if they pay out the ass they can get a handful of Psycannons. Paying upwards of 80 points for a Psycannon isn't really all that magical anyway. They are much more dangerous in CC, and if you multi assault them or multi assault the turn after they assault they should be no trouble.

I'm just much more butthurt about Purifiers. I don't see the concern for Paladins. At all.

Pssst. Paladins are WS 5, so they're hitting on 3's. Whoops, yeah, Banner, nevermind.

They're going to be wounding on 3's, though, due to hammerhand. 2's if Draigo's with them to hamnmerhand again.

You've also miscalculated - 3 PKs, as sated in your nob unit, will only make 12 attacks. You will also have the 12 BC attacks, of which 5 will wound, of which you stand a 0.4 chance to get a single wound through armour and FNP.

Kharrak wrote:Pssst. Paladins are WS 5, so they're hitting on 3's. They're also going to be wounding on 3's due to hammerhand. 2's if Draigo's with them to hamnmerhand again.

Psst. Nobz are Weapon Skill 5 with Waagh banner. I spent the 15 points on it, I'd better get the effect.

How are they going to Hammerhand? They have to activate their force weapons. The Codex says that Grey Knights w/ Brotherhood of Psykers can only use one psychic power per turn.

Kharrak wrote:

You've also miscalculated - 3 PKs, as sated in your nob unit, will only make 12 attacks. You will also have the 12 BC attacks, of which 5 will wound, of which you stand a 0.4 chance to get a single wound through armour and FNP.

I used 4 PKs, I also didn't calculate BC or choppa attacks or the attacks from the Brotherhood Banner Paladin because both would be negligible with FnP and multiple wounds considering the real damage on both sides would be dealt by instant death.

Edit, excuse me, I said 3 PKs and tallied 3 PKs, but in my math I used 4 PKs. Adjust accordingly, I will go back and edit the cost and the list in the OP.

TedNugent wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Pssst. Paladins are WS 5, so they're hitting on 3's. They're also going to be wounding on 3's due to hammerhand. 2's if Draigo's with them to hamnmerhand again.

Psst. Nobz are Weapon Skill 5 with Waagh banner. I spent the 15 points on it, I'd better get the effect.

How are they going to Hammerhand? They have to activate their force weapons. The Codex says that Grey Knights w/ Brotherhood of Psykers can only use one psychic power per turn.

Yeah, I noticed the error prior to your fix. Good point of the hammerhand as well - though I'd be interested in the results using the correct amount of PK attacks - you only budgeted for 75, which is 3

EDIT ZOGIT I wish we would stop editing our posts at the same time

By the way, I did not realize how outrageous Might of Titans is.

KMBs are looking more sensible in light of the extra D6 to pen. In fact, they're looking almost necessary.

Outside of that, I'm beginning to think that a tricked out Draigo/Librarian list would almost require a huge number of Power Klaw Nobz and Ghazghkull for any kind of realistic counter.

I think that for 5 points a model at least one unit of KMB would probably make sense for assurance against Termies and Draigowing, maybe 2 units out of 3 if you were using a Kan Wall. I'm not sure about Apoc because I've never seen the rulebook, but it might be a smart idea. A fully fleshed out Draigo unit, now that I look at it, would be pretty !@#$ing scary if you didn't have AP1/AP2 blast templates, and very few things have that. In fact, so few things have AP2 single shot that it would take an inordinate number of Lascannon/Railgun shots to drill thru them in any meaningful quantity considering that Draigo can be used as ablative wounds. The reduced quantity of AP2 that you can field really work against you in countering that list considering wound allocation. The fewer the number of shots, the more can be offloaded to Draigo.

But I'm thinking a good tactic would be to assault and murder the Librarian's unit ASAP before thinking about touching the Draigo unit. Perhaps you could shoot your AP2 at the Librarian's unit and hope you get lucky.

You could always magnetize your Kanz/tanks so you can swap rokkits/KMB depending on what works or testing in casual play.

Shoot the Librarian unit with AP2 and then multi assault the Draigo unit with every Power Klaw in your arsenal and Ghazghkull's Waagh for the charge distance?

By the way, does Draigo's Hammerhand really affect the entire Paladin unit? That is so abusive. I mean, there isn't anything that says you could hypothetically stack 2 Hammerhands. But if you could, that would mean you could stack 2 hammerhands and a Might of Titans for a strength 7 baseline! That's just nutty and wacky cheese sandwich baloney shenanigans. This codex just makes me rage every time I read it.

Couldn't you hypothetically strike at init 10 with strength 7? With a 4++ invuln in CC?

Please someone tell me you can't stack 2 Hammerhands on the same unit. That's just stupid.

I didn't check your math, I'd just like to point out a few things:

- 10 Nobz are a really bad choice. You should never field more than 8 nobz. At the same time 4PK are utter overkill, so that unit of nobz should never exist in that way.
- I have been told that the apothecary is a waste of points for paladins, as they are already durable beyond measure without it. Still see a lot of apothecaries, so you might as well ignore this point.
- Even then, the apothecary does not trade away his NFW, so more attacks at I4.
- Any paladin unit will have warding staff and the attached 2++ save against close combat
- You have to allocate wounds before cybork, so you are not guaranteed to keep the nobz you want. Combine with a more realistic unit size, you might lose a PK before you strike.

For the hammerhand madness:
Actually, you can stack six hammerhands in one unit, by adding techmarines from the elite slot. So S10 paladins striking at I10 while reducing your toughness by 3 are possible, though a terrible waste of points, even for GK.

TedNugent wrote:How are they going to Hammerhand? They have to activate their force weapons. The Codex says that Grey Knights w/ Brotherhood of Psykers can only use one psychic power per turn.

Could be different for Grey Knights (are they proper Psykers? Don't have the codex) but its one power per player turn. So you can use Hammerhand in your turn, and activate force weapons in your opponents turn.

As said I don't have the codex, so ignore me if it's not relevant (or if Hammerhand is cast in the opponents turn as well).

Jidmah wrote:I didn't check your math, I'd just like to point out a few things:

- 10 Nobz are a really bad choice. You should never field more than 8 nobz. At the same time 4PK are utter overkill, so that unit of nobz should never exist in that way.

THAT UNIT IS A BAD CHOICE. I KNOW. I CONSULTED MY CYBER BOOK.

Then multi assault with 2 !@#$ing 5 man squads, what difference does it make? 4 PK are not overkill against Paladins, clearly, because with 3 PKs they probably would have gotten wiped even with the charge. In a TAC list either multi assault with 2 smaller squads or add an IC with a Power Klaw to the unit.

Here's a couple of thoughts, if you get one unit, you're paying less up front cost for the Painboy and Waaagh banner as well as more ablative wounds.

Jidmah wrote:
- I have been told that the apothecary is a waste of points for paladins, as they are already durable beyond measure without it.

I have not seen a list that doesn't use apothecaries.
What difference does it make? There was a greater than 75 point margin between the two units.

Plus, if he doesn't get an Apothecary, you could just use Boyz or shoot them to death like regular Terminators. You'd just have to work a little harder at it, but for 55+ points a model, I think you can deal with it.

Jidmah wrote:
- Even then, the apothecary does not trade away his NFW, so more attacks at I4.

Except I gave him a BHB, which takes away his NFW. I put both on the same model for the purpose of wound allocation.

Jidmah wrote:
- Any paladin unit will have warding staff and the attached 2++ save against close combat

I sat there and painstakingly ran thru the math, including optimal wound allocation just to have it ignored. At least check the math before you critique it.

In fact, I did it twice before my PC crashed and I had to write it up again.

Jidmah wrote:
- You have to allocate wounds before cybork, so you are not guaranteed to keep the nobz you want. Combine with a more realistic unit size, you might lose a PK before you strike.

All right, sure, but it doesn't affect the math because he's dealing wounds at each init value. 2 at each init value for 6 and 4, in which case you can allocate to the slugga/choppa, big choppa, no?

Jidmah wrote:
For the hammerhand madness:
Actually, you can stack six hammerhands in one unit, by adding techmarines from the elite slot. So S10 paladins striking at I10 while reducing your toughness by 3 are possible, though a terrible waste of points, even for GK.

Techmarines are not really what I'm concerned about. What I'm concerned about is even two stacks of Hammerhand. Really? An entire unit of TEQs striking at strength 6 at initiative 4+? Is anyone even thinking this through at GW? Why hasn't this been FAQ'd?

Let alone with a 160 point model you can give them 2d6 pen and I10.

Hammerhand madness indeed.

TedNugent wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I didn't check your math, I'd just like to point out a few things:

- 10 Nobz are a really bad choice. You should never field more than 8 nobz. At the same time 4PK are utter overkill, so that unit of nobz should never exist in that way.

THAT UNIT IS A BAD CHOICE. I KNOW. I CONSULTED MY CYBER BOOK.

Then multi assault with 2 !@#$ing 5 man squads, what difference does it make? 4 PK are not overkill against Paladins, clearly, because with 3 PKs they probably would have gotten wiped even with the charge. In a TAC list either multi assault with 2 smaller squads or add an IC with a Power Klaw to the unit.

So are we talking about tailoring against an paladin list, or are we talking about an actual game? If you are tailoring, why stop at four? This would be the one time that full unit of PK nobz would actually be able to unfold their full potential, and you don't really need boyz in this matchup.
No well rounded ork army should ever contain more than one unit of nobz, and that unit should not have more than three powerklaws. Any IC with a powerklaw except Thrakka will be instant-deathed and thus gone. Thrakka himself would only be dragged down by the nobz and lose combat because of them. If you want the exact math about Thrakka and nobz vs 5/10 paladins, you'll find that in my past posts.

You right on all other accounts, of course. Mea culpa.

Jidmah wrote:
For the hammerhand madness:
Actually, you can stack six hammerhands in one unit, by adding techmarines from the elite slot. So S10 paladins striking at I10 while reducing your toughness by 3 are possible, though a terrible waste of points, even for GK.

Techmarines are not really what I'm concerned about. What I'm concerned about is even two stacks of Hammerhand. Really? An entire unit of TEQs striking at strength 6 at initiative 4+? Is anyone even thinking this through at GW? Why hasn't this been FAQ'd?

Let alone with a 160 point model you can give them 2d6 pen and I10.

Hammerhand madness indeed.

Actually, it was FAQed:

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.
Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows
it.

These were added at the same time as the first GK FAQ.

Jidmah wrote:

Actually, it was FAQed:

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.
Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows
it.

These were added at the same time as the first GK FAQ.

!@#$

So Draigo can cast Hammerhand twice? And a Librarian can cast Might of Titans twice. lol. On the same unit. An entire unit of Paladins striking at strength 6, and what the hell, why not initiative 10 power weapons with an extra D6 pen? You'd still have a better chance at doing that successfully than an Ork would have to hit the broad side of a Leman Russ with a Rokkit.

I hope we're going to have some form of psychic defense in the next codex. Sweet god have mercy. It is a complete mindfeth that nearly every codex has the arbitrary ability to reduce a Psychic power to a 50% chance of success and the Ork dex literally has nothing.

General_Chaos wrote:Wow 2 year old post coming back to life... I was reading this wonder when the hell did I say that and wow how my opinions changed. Rokkit Buggies all the way!

Yea I hear ya, I actually said I wouldnt use rokkitz on boyz. How silly, because I use rokkitz on boyz all the time. I have rokkits coming out of the wood works.

If you like Rokkits get some Kannons if you have the slots, BS3 and 3 Ammo runts per unit makes them as good as it gets for str 8 ork shooting and they are 87 points for a decked out unit with 6 extra grot crew. Thats 3 BS 3 rokkits w 36" range with 3 rerolls per game.

Rokkit buggies are cool but you really need at least 6 of them to be "effective" , I have learned that my opponents HATE buggies. They will dump an entire round of shooting into them, so 3 is not enough to be effective or survive long. RPJ would be nice on them as well to help hide them in buildings etc, but sort of jacks the price up.

3 units of 2 koptas w just rokkits outflanking is an interesting idea. 90 points for a psychological aspect that could get a pretty decent shot at rear armor.

regarding paladins and using KMBs on Kans vs paladins, it is sort of tailoring imo, and not realy that great. Just remember that Draigo is 2+ invul and I believe eternal warrior so any range shots that go through are going to be allocated to him and I believe he has 3 or 4 wounds. Thats 120? points of KMB that still are probably not going to kill anything. You might be better just shooting grotzookas and forcing him to roll 1's instead of blasting through Armor 2. KMBs really arent the answer to termies, choppa boyz are. If they would make the KMB a template then it would be worth looking at.