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I think you need to reread the Sangs unit type and I think you'll be very disappointed when you do.

Sageheart wrote:i just used him in a game yesterday and he worked out well. he was a beast in close combat, wrecking whole squads before even the honor guard could attack! He then killed shrike, and a bunch of assault marines. The reroll against a HQ is amazing againss heroes that need to die or hand out army special rules, and making on of your serg. basically a captain didn't help me out too much but seems very cool! My army as a whole could have done better, thou i did win, but he did great. I unluckily forgot about the added attack, if i had remembered I think he would have done a bit better.

what do you guys think is the best unit for him to go into? I did an honor squad with PW and a Champion.

i dont like meph cause he is an IC that anyone can target so he just gets shot to pieces. not to say he isnt good, he is just soem crazy good warrior whoo I've seen die before he gets to do anything good. anyway i like heroes who help the army as a whole rather than just do mad damage.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I think you need to reread the Sangs unit type and I think you'll be very disappointed when you do.

Sageheart wrote:i just used him in a game yesterday and he worked out well. he was a beast in close combat, wrecking whole squads before even the honor guard could attack! He then killed shrike, and a bunch of assault marines. The reroll against a HQ is amazing againss heroes that need to die or hand out army special rules, and making on of your serg. basically a captain didn't help me out too much but seems very cool! My army as a whole could have done better, thou i did win, but he did great. I unluckily forgot about the added attack, if i had remembered I think he would have done a bit better.

what do you guys think is the best unit for him to go into? I did an honor squad with PW and a Champion.

i dont like meph cause he is an IC that anyone can target so he just gets shot to pieces. not to say he isnt good, he is just soem crazy good warrior whoo I've seen die before he gets to do anything good. anyway i like heroes who help the army as a whole rather than just do mad damage.

what do you mean? is he unable to get an honor guard? he is an HQ choice

He can't join units. He doesn't let you take any other kinds of honor or command squad either.

ohhh thats my fault! wow i feel awful i made that mistake!!

why cant he take honor guards, it doenst say he cant thou he cant join units. and where exactly does it say he cant join units. i really missed this. and the other players all did too which is odd.

that makes him not as good, since it isnt hard to target him and just nail him with enough firepower.

Where does it say he can't take an honor guard?

FAQ? The book? You yourself? Where?

Where does it say he can and join units?

He is the same as Mephiston, he doesn't have the Independent Character rule which means he is unable to join units. Its a fairly common mistake actually as there are very few character in the game which are like this. I think you can still take an Honour Guard squad if he is in your list though, he just can't join them.

As people have mentioned he isn't a pure beatstick like Mephiston, but is primarily in the army to act as a massive buff to the rest of your army. If you are worried about him dying then feel free to use BA rule perfect for the purpose, DoA. To me this is one of the main things which sets him apart from Mephiston, he can DS and isn't reliant on psychic abilities for his mobility. You have no reason to deploy him on the board at the start of the game as he has no shooting and you aren't going to be hitting combat for a while. At the very least you can keep him off the board for at least a round of shooting or two, but ideally you want him to arrive on the turn your main Assault Marine force is going to charge. He can accurately DS right where you want him, giving everyone around him that extra attack (which as mentioned is his best ability). Next turn you can send him after HQs/other tough units or support Assault Marine squad which need it. He can usually take a single round of shooting and live anyway, but a decent chunk of the enemy army is going to be dead or stuck in combat with your Assault Marines anyway so it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Jabbdo wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Mephiston has no invul save, that alone makes him nigh on useless, not even taking into account psychic defense crippling him completely.

If you feel the need to spend near 300 pts on an hq, go with sanguinor, he rocks mephistons face.

6 str 10 attacks force weapon attacks on the charge is nigh on useless? potential 24" threat range is useless? ok...

Mephiston kills mostly anything you point him at, and he kills MC's with ease. Sanguinor kills the one IC you allocate then he's just an overpriced captain. Meph laughs while Sanguinor craps himself at massed bolter fire. Meph kills any vehicle you need him to, sanguinor struggles against war walkers.

If Meph got the charge on Sang, he'd kill Sang next turn.

Hardly useless.

Fool.

Ok first of all, his wings, possible 24" threat range, if theres no psychic hood in range, which there is if youre trying to charge the big expensive squad meph is made kill.

Also, i dont really think sang loses to mephiston .... he is eternal warrior so no force weaponing. He hits meph on 3s ... with ws8 vs 7.

If Sanguinor gets the charge theyre fighting at the same initiative level. sang has a 3+ invul and rerolls to hit and to wound at str 6 on the charge, meph has no invul, wounding on 2s doesnt matter when you need to do 3 wounds to cause 1 ... Meph might as well need 6's to wound the sanguinor ....

So all in all youre lookijng at a loser without an invul, that needs to be in psychic hood range to really be useful at all, at which point half his powers arent going off. and he is useless.

Sanguinor would seem to have odds on beating meph like 80+% of the time ... first round of combat looks like 3-4 wounds on mephiston, with MABYE 1 on sanguinor ...... Even if mephiston gets the charge, he still dies round 2 of combat to the sanguinor ...

Also, mephiston is 5 attacks on the charge, not 6, you should probably reread your codex before you try to give people tactics advice ....

ah I see he isn't an IC, which is why he can't join units, that makes sense. I would think he can still get an honorguard thou since he is technically a HQ choice. I will have to play with him again and see how it goes. I have been Deep striking him but i do need to see how he would work out with no unit to guard him!

I would only use the Sanguinor in larger games. He's not a game- changing/ winning character but he can take on powerful enemy HQs, although if it's a very cheap HQ, he's a waste as he won't make his points back. I was once allied with a BA player whose Sanguinor was destroyed in 1 turn by a standard squad of CSM. Only take him if you know the enemy is fielding a powerful HQ.

Sageheart, taking the sanguinor or mephiston allows you to take an honor guard unit in your army.

Theyre not a bodyguard or a retinue. The attaching of the hq unit to the honor guard is not compulsory, let alone an option for sang or meph.

yeah i figured that out now. its pretty odd. i thought only meph was none-IC. i just played a game with him against mech guard and had my a** handed to me. too many shots was able to tear him apart. I really don't think he is useful as much as i thought at first due to that lack of IC thing.

Sanquinor can't be ID he's Eternal Warrior.

i know, but he also cant avoid 6 lascannons, and three hydra batteries, and a ton of meltas a turn haahha. even with 2 up armor save and 3 up invulnerable.

Sageheart wrote:i know, but he also cant avoid 6 lascannons, and three hydra batteries, and a ton of meltas a turn haahha. even with 2 up armor save and 3 up invulnerable.

It would still probably take more of those shots to kill him than it would to pop a Land Raider.

that is true! i just couldn't really use him! i had to keep trying to keep him in hiding so that they couldn't get more shots than that on him. I don't know if i like his lack of IC stasis.

Amaya wrote:

Sageheart wrote:i know, but he also cant avoid 6 lascannons, and three hydra batteries, and a ton of meltas a turn haahha. even with 2 up armor save and 3 up invulnerable.

It would still probably take more of those shots to kill him than it would to pop a Land Raider.

Melta Mathhammer.

BS3 Melta : 1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/3 failed Invo=5/36 round up to 5/35 aka 1/7

It takes 21 BS3 Melta gun shots to kill the sanguinor.

BS4 Melta Vets: 2/3 hit 5/6 wound 1/3 failed Invo=10/54 about 18.5%

It takes 16 BS4 Melta gun shots to kill the sanguinor.

IG should not even shoot at him. The priests should be the priority target, so dropping the priest and whatever squad he's attached to is a higher priority than the Sanguinor.

the thing is he cant be attached to a unit, my enemy knocked out my heavy assault squads with LRs and used melta against them as well, then with anything that couldn't tear up my squads he aimed at the sanguinor. He didn't kill him, but in two turns he was down to one wound, and again thou he didnt die he was forced to go into hiding making him near useless.
i also don't think the priests were helpful in this match since all the ap 1 and ap 2 weapons went right through fnp. my list wasn't great, i think i need to go with sang guard over assault squads but either way the sangunior wasn't worth the points, in marine battles i find him to be useful, but against IG which is highly mobile and heavy firepower he was useless. maybe i was using him badly, or my army wasn't built enough around him, but i just didn't see him as great, which is a pity cause i loved him when i first saw his stats and first played with him.

kill dem stunties wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Mephiston has no invul save, that alone makes him nigh on useless, not even taking into account psychic defense crippling him completely.

If you feel the need to spend near 300 pts on an hq, go with sanguinor, he rocks mephistons face.

6 str 10 attacks force weapon attacks on the charge is nigh on useless? potential 24" threat range is useless? ok...

Mephiston kills mostly anything you point him at, and he kills MC's with ease. Sanguinor kills the one IC you allocate then he's just an overpriced captain. Meph laughs while Sanguinor craps himself at massed bolter fire. Meph kills any vehicle you need him to, sanguinor struggles against war walkers.

If Meph got the charge on Sang, he'd kill Sang next turn.

Hardly useless.

Fool.

Ok first of all, his wings, possible 24" threat range, if theres no psychic hood in range, which there is if youre trying to charge the big expensive squad meph is made kill.

Also, i dont really think sang loses to mephiston .... he is eternal warrior so no force weaponing. He hits meph on 3s ... with ws8 vs 7.

If Sanguinor gets the charge theyre fighting at the same initiative level. sang has a 3+ invul and rerolls to hit and to wound at str 6 on the charge, meph has no invul, wounding on 2s doesnt matter when you need to do 3 wounds to cause 1 ... Meph might as well need 6's to wound the sanguinor ....

So all in all youre lookijng at a loser without an invul, that needs to be in psychic hood range to really be useful at all, at which point half his powers arent going off. and he is useless.

Sanguinor would seem to have odds on beating meph like 80+% of the time ... first round of combat looks like 3-4 wounds on mephiston, with MABYE 1 on sanguinor ...... Even if mephiston gets the charge, he still dies round 2 of combat to the sanguinor ...

Also, mephiston is 5 attacks on the charge, not 6, you should probably reread your codex before you try to give people tactics advice ....

İ said if MEPH gets the charge he will most likely kill Sang. 6 attacks, hitting on 4s, rerolls to hit, 4.5 hits, woundıng on 2s, 4 wounds, 1-2 failed saves. Sang hıts back 5 times, rerolls to hıt, 4.5 hits, wounding on 5s, rerolls, 1-2 wounds. Next turn Meph kills Sang (hopefully ) Its close though.

Mephiston is there to deal with the stuff that the rest of your army struggles wıth, whıch is mainly mass MCs, he cant take on THSS terms or or other deathstars and expect to win. Neither can Sanguinor though. OK, Sang buffs the army more, but as a beatstıck he loses out to Meph every tıme.

Mephiston: 4 attacks base + 1 pistol/CCW + 1 charge

İronic how people people tell me to check my codex when they are wrong themselves...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:
6 str 10 attacks force weapon attacks on the charge is nigh on useless? potential 24" threat range is useless? ok...

No, those are both exceptional. Unfortunately, it's really all he brings to the table.

Mephiston kills mostly anything you point him at, and he kills MC's with ease. Sanguinor kills the one IC you allocate then he's just an overpriced captain.

Uh, not quite.

Meph laughs while Sanguinor craps himself at massed bolter fire.

We've been over this. It takes six squads of Tacticals in Rapid Fire range to kill Sanguinor via bolters. On the other hand, it takes one squad of plasmagun Honor Guard to kill Meph.

Meph kills any vehicle you need him to, sanguinor struggles against war walkers.

That's irrelevant in my case, if I'm spending 250+ on an HQ unit, I won't be sending them around vehicle hunting.

If Meph got the charge on Sang, he'd kill Sang next turn.

I'm not so sure. I'll mathhammer it out a little later when I've got the codex handy.

Hey, good to see you're not taking this discussion or yourself too seriously.

Plasmaguard: 8 shots, 5-6 hıts, 4 wounds (ıf someone ıs dumb enough to leave meph out of cover) otherwıse 2 through. Next turn HG dıes

You mıght not want to send Sang vehıcle huntıng, but youre gonna have to stay more than 12`` away from any walkers, as evene a scout sentınel WILL tıe up your 275pt HQ for the rest of the game. Agaınst a mech army there mıght not be other targets avaılable other than vehıcles, and for example agaınst IG you dont really need super beatstıck CC characters to kıll theır guardsmen, so Meph would be free to smash mantıcores and hydras, as he makes a fıne vehıcle hunter ıf needed, whıle Sang sucks agaınst vehıcles.

Sang WILL get tıed up by large unıts of ınfantry, as he cant kıll enough of them relıably to get out of the combat wıthın 1-2 turns. 5 attacks, lackıng rerolls and wıth an average strength means hell kıll maybe 2-3 t4 ınfantry per turn, whıle Meph chews through 4-5 (5-6 on the charge) thanks to rerolls and str6. Meph also laughs off theır return attacks (escept power fısts, they hurt) whıle Sang ıs ın real danger of gettıng torrented by ork boyz.

Sure Sang buffs the army more, but as a beatstıck he loses to Meph every tıme, even agaınst ICs, whıch ıs supposed to be Sangs specıalıty, Meph does better.

L2P dude.

Mınd explaınıng what you mean by that last comment BTW?

In the ard boys la finals I had the sanguinor killed the swarmlord in both game 2 and game 3. Let's see meph do that even once.

schadenfreude wrote:In the ard boys la finals I had the sanguinor killed the swarmlord in both game 2 and game 3. Let's see meph do that even once.

For me Mephıston has kılled fexes, avatars, ctan, nob bıkers, thunderlords, hıve tyrants, trygons, tervıgons, and pretty much any basıc ınfantry you care to name by the bucketload.

Meph has also kılled monlıths and land raıders wıth ease.

Lets see sang kıll a scout sentınel even once. My moneys on the sentınel.

schadenfreude wrote:In the ard boys la finals I had the sanguinor killed the swarmlord in both game 2 and game 3. Let's see meph do that even once.

Knowing just ONE wound from the Swarmlord screws Mephiston in the eyeball, I had him charge the Swarmlord in my 'Ard Boyz Prelims and the following happened:

Movement Phase

Meph - Move 6"

Shooting Phase

Meph - Fleet 3-4"

Assault Phase

Meph - Charged 3-4" into B2B
Meph - I7, so...FIRST
Meph - Successfully cast Unleash Rage (even with SitW)
Meph - Successfully cast Sanguine Sword (even with SitW)
Meph - 6 attacks, 3 hits, 5 with re-rolls, 4 wounds
SL - Failed 2 4+ Invul saves
Meph - Successfully used Force Sword (even with SitW).

TYRANIDS DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL WARRIOR ANYMORE!

GG!


Anyways, I LOVE using Mephiston. He's the IC that really got me into BA. He's always been bad-ass and he causes the enemy to freak out so much that they tend to lose sight of the rest of your army.

I have NOT had a game go by since April (when the current dex came out) where he's NOT killed less than three units before dying. Sure, he runs out of Awesome-Juice after a while, but while he's on it, there's no stopping him.

Team Edward all the way!

I'm a big fan of Sanguinor and often use him in my jump list. I prefer his 3++ to Mephiston's lack of invulnerable save. The +1A bubble is golden.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I prefer his 3++ to Mephiston's lack of invulnerable save.

Mephiston kills stuff at I7, he is supposed to be a quick in-and-out murderer, not a hunker-down-and-drag-it-out pansy.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The +1A bubble is golden.

Yup, it definitely is! So is a character that instant-kills everything that's not EW from squads, to IC's, to Tanks, and is a HUGE psychological threat to the opponent.

I've played against the Sanguinor twice, and all I have to say is . . . Meh


Then again I play Guard, so when he hits a wall of my Guardsmen he's basically tar-pitted for the remainder of the game. And the modifiers he puts on either side don't mean too much to me either.

Hmmm... I remember several games versus Blob IG when that +1A meant my assault squads quickly gutted the blobs removing the bubble wrap. If you are using Sanguinor all by his lonesome and not getting good results try using him to lead a couple squads into assault - two full assault squads comes to 20 extra attacks, that's basically 2/3 of an additional squad.

To me there's no point in comparing Sanguinor and Mephiston. Everytime I've played against him I shot him off the table before he did anything significant. Sure he is a beatstick, great stuff for sure. The thing is smart players can neutralize him. Sanguinor is completely different - sure you can soak him with bolters but if he is feeling no pain then you probably will.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:but if he is feeling no pain then you probably will.

I see what ya did there....

schadenfreude wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:He's pretty terrible for his cost. He'll never contribute enough to a battle to make that up.

The Sanguinor is an absolute beast in a jump spam army. It's rather easy to put him in the middle of 40 assault marines along with a priest. If they each have 2 melta guns each squad will be up to 35 Str5 I5 attacks + 4 Str9 Power fist attacks.

The total will go from 100 Str5 attacks and 12 str 9 power fist attacks to 140 str 5 attacks and 16 str 9 power fist attacks (17 pfist attacks 5 of which will be at WS5 if the enhanced sergeant is in the mix)

Never contribute enough a battle to make up for hist cost? When in the middle of a wave of assault marines the Sanguinor can add 40 str5 attacks and 5 str9 attacks in a single assault phase, with 40 str 4 and 5 str8 attacks following in every other assault phase.

And I thought the BA codex might be broken example of codex creep. Thanks for alleviating my fears...

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Hmmm... I remember several games versus Blob IG when that +1A meant my assault squads quickly gutted the blobs removing the bubble wrap. If you are using Sanguinor all by his lonesome and not getting good results try using him to lead a couple squads into assault - two full assault squads comes to 20 extra attacks, that's basically 2/3 of an additional squad.

To me there's no point in comparing Sanguinor and Mephiston. Everytime I've played against him I shot him off the table before he did anything significant. Sure he is a beatstick, great stuff for sure. The thing is smart players can neutralize him. Sanguinor is completely different - sure you can soak him with bolters but if he is feeling no pain then you probably will.

Tell me, how ıs ıt easıer to neutralıze Meph when he has a far longer threat range and ıs harder to kıll wıth shootıng than Sang??

Jabbdo wrote:Tell me, how ıs ıt easıer to neutralıze Meph when he has a far longer threat range and ıs harder to kıll wıth shootıng than Sang??

My sentiments exactly.

He moves 12", fleets d6", and charges 6". Factor that into your maneuvering, or should it be called "escaping"...

Block him with Tanks, he jumps over them OR charges and destroys them at S10

Block him with infantry, he jumps over them OR charges and kills 6 a turn

Block him with a character, and Meph will strike at I7 and use his Force Sword

Block him with an EW character, Meph goes to S10 and re-rolls hits, winning by attrition.

Block him with a faster character with a Force Weapon, well good luck, there's not many, and I would honestly have him just avoid that unit so na-na-nana-na