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It's really easy. Units that can roll up in mech and rapid fire several plasmaguns. This is very common and good Guard players use vet squads armed as such to deal with units like Mephiston and terminators. Sternguard can drop him with their combi meltas. Chosen, Havocs, etc. Vendettas are also great at sniping him and it's hard to get him cover versus fliers. Fire Dragons in a serpent work too. But okay you are going to counter that it's a shell game, you can bubblewrap him. Sure you can but then he is relegated to hiding, not being that very scary monster you paid all those points for to crush face.

Really, any smart player usıng Meph should leave hım so he has cover. Always. Be ıt from a knee hıgh fence or hıs left toe ın cover, you should never leave hım ın the open. Ever. Its better to take the 1/6 chance rısk of dangerous terraın and receıve a 4+ cover than stand out ın the open.

OK, but youll need 20-25 plasmagun shots to kıll Meph ıf hes ın cover, or 18 lascannon shots (at bs4). Remember ıf your gonna rapıd fıre at Meph, those squads WILL dıe next turn.

Meph has flaws (lack of invul the bıggest one, really, I would pay 300 pts for hım ıf he had a 4++) but people seem to concentrate too much on his drawbacks and not on the amazıng versatılıty and killiness he brıngs to the table. IMO hes one of the best and most versatıle beatstıcks ın 40k, and dont forget he brıngs much needed psy defense too.

i feel like without the invulnerable save he could be killed by any ap1 or 2 weapon, just firing a few lascannons could knock him out. i'm not sure yet since i haven't played against him.

also i believe if sang got the charge and if he had a sangpriest near him like he should he would be attacking at the same time as meph. he has I6 and would get +1 for furious charge. i dunno if that makes too much of a difference.

he is not a beatstick unit though, if we view sang as such then we really negate his very good abilities, which are IC stalking and buffing. The reroll all misses to hit and wound against an enemy IC is pretty good and it has been helpful to me a great many times in killing enemy heroes. The buff is why i tried him out in the first place, granting extra attacks is great, and turning a normal serg into a mini captain is a pretty cool ability.

Sageheart wrote:i feel like without the invulnerable save he could be killed by any ap1 or 2 weapon, just firing a few lascannons could knock him out. i'm not sure yet since i haven't played against him.

also i believe if sang got the charge and if he had a sangpriest near him like he should he would be attacking at the same time as meph. he has I6 and would get +1 for furious charge. i dunno if that makes too much of a difference.

he is not a beatstick unit though, if we view sang as such then we really negate his very good abilities, which are IC stalking and buffing. The reroll all misses to hit and wound against an enemy IC is pretty good and it has been helpful to me a great many times in killing enemy heroes. The buff is why i tried him out in the first place, granting extra attacks is great, and turning a normal serg into a mini captain is a pretty cool ability.

Meph should always have cover, and that means puttıng 10 ap 1/2 wounds on hım to knock hım out.

The only thıng Sang has over Meph ıs hıs +1A bubble. Funnıly enough wıth rerolls. str 10 and a force weapon Meph ıs better at kıllıng ICs than Sang.

In the "Sanguinor vs Mephiston" debate, I think people are forgetting that Meph would likely be re-rolling wounds too...

Again, he has consistently killed three units for me every game before he ate it. His purpose is very focused. Kill stuff before they get to go in H2H. Win.

Consider that Sanguinor should by the odds beat down Abbadon while Abbadon by the odds will beat down Mephiston. In general Sanguinor is the better choice versus deathstars due to the extended natures of these type of combats. Mephiston simply does not do as well in long protracted fights and there are units that can absorb his initial push. With the coming of uber high initiative units from dark eldar Mephiston is going to take a real dive.

He's not as good as he sounds. If you want a character, get Mephiston, even though his model is rubbish.

Lokirfellheart wrote:even though his model is rubbish.

It's one of the coolest character sculpts around, and it's from second edition!

ive seen situations where oblits or an honor guard plasma squad drops in for free shots at meph's flank and wipes him out. A tricky situational tactic, but it does show one of meph's weaknesses. Ive also seen meph kill off 650+ points in one game...

Havent played with the sanguinor because i find his price so high, but after reading this good discussion I will be trying him to see what his deal is.

I've come to the conclusion that the Sanguinor can never be sold to players who don't get him. In the Meph V Sanguinor debate what it really comes down to is Meph is a very easy to use blunt tool, and the Sanguinor is a far more complex tool with more potential.

Tactics for using Meph are rather simple, and a lot like a club. Give a cave man a good club and he knows to hide behind a bush, jump out, and hit someone upside the head with it. Give any player Meph and they will know to hide meph behind a transport, or kick a squad out of their razorback/rhino so meph can climb in, jump out, and club someone upside the head with Meph.

Tactics for using the Sanguinor are very complex, and a lot like a precision rifle. Give a cave man a precision rifle and he knows to hide behind a bush, jump out, and hit someone upside the head with it. The end result is an angry cave man who is pissed off that his ultimate weapon of doom is a second rate club. The Sanguinor is one of the most complex and difficult to use special characters in the game, but he also has more potential than any other character in the game. BA are a CC army, and most BA units have 2 attacks or 3 on the charge. Increasing that by 1 attack per model is a 33% damage increase on the charge, and a 50% increase in subsequent rounds of combat. If 900 points of BA units get the extra attack they will hit like 1,200 points on the charge, and 1,350 points in subsequent rounds. That type of damage increases even more once combat resolution is taken into effect.

The end result is when properly used Mephiston destroys units, and the Sanguinor destroys entire armies.

Last but not least I'm going to make this point. The closest thing to compare him to isn't Meph, it's Pedro Cantor. Pedro is a tragic character, which is in character with his entire chapter. The +1 attack on his 3 units of sternguard counting as scoring units seems rather nice on the surface, but crimson fists are not a CC army. The 3 attack sternguard are a flawed unit because they can't charge if they rapid fire their bolters, and the purpose of sternguard is to use their special issue ammunition. On the other hand 3 attack assault marines (well 2+1 for BP and CCW) in a BA army are a perfectly synergistic unit because the 3 attacks goes perfectly with the furious charge and FNP. In 40k the most important units are troops, not HQ. Troops are the units that win 2/3 games, and having rock solid troops is what wins games. The synergy between the Sanguinor and large numbers of assault marines is what makes him so great, and assault marines with a priest are the single best asset that BA have in their codex.

schadenfreude wrote:Wall of truth

I can't click "Like" or "+"? This is one of the most thought out explanations I've seen in a while on forums like these.

Brilliant, and accurate.

schadenfreude wrote:I've come to the conclusion that the Sanguinor can never be sold to players who don't get him. In the Meph V Sanguinor debate what it really comes down to is Meph is a very easy to use blunt tool, and the Sanguinor is a far more complex tool with more potential.

Tactics for using Meph are rather simple, and a lot like a club. Give a cave man a good club and he knows to hide behind a bush, jump out, and hit someone upside the head with it. Give any player Meph and they will know to hide meph behind a transport, or kick a squad out of their razorback/rhino so meph can climb in, jump out, and club someone upside the head with Meph.

Tactics for using the Sanguinor are very complex, and a lot like a precision rifle. Give a cave man a precision rifle and he knows to hide behind a bush, jump out, and hit someone upside the head with it. The end result is an angry cave man who is pissed off that his ultimate weapon of doom is a second rate club. The Sanguinor is one of the most complex and difficult to use special characters in the game, but he also has more potential than any other character in the game. BA are a CC army, and most BA units have 2 attacks or 3 on the charge. Increasing that by 1 attack per model is a 33% damage increase on the charge, and a 50% increase in subsequent rounds of combat. If 900 points of BA units get the extra attack they will hit like 1,200 points on the charge, and 1,350 points in subsequent rounds. That type of damage increases even more once combat resolution is taken into effect.

The end result is when properly used Mephiston destroys units, and the Sanguinor destroys entire armies.

Last but not least I'm going to make this point. The closest thing to compare him to isn't Meph, it's Pedro Cantor. Pedro is a tragic character, which is in character with his entire chapter. The +1 attack on his 3 units of sternguard counting as scoring units seems rather nice on the surface, but crimson fists are not a CC army. The 3 attack sternguard are a flawed unit because they can't charge if they rapid fire their bolters, and the purpose of sternguard is to use their special issue ammunition. On the other hand 3 attack assault marines (well 2+1 for BP and CCW) in a BA army are a perfectly synergistic unit because the 3 attacks goes perfectly with the furious charge and FNP. In 40k the most important units are troops, not HQ. Troops are the units that win 2/3 games, and having rock solid troops is what wins games. The synergy between the Sanguinor and large numbers of assault marines is what makes him so great, and assault marines with a priest are the single best asset that BA have in their codex.

wow that was a great response!

how would you say using such a complex character? what is the best way to keep him alive, do you use him?

The best means of keeping him alive is to put him in a Stormraven. That is expensive though so a more economic method is to deep strike him behind other units and keep a Priest close by for the Feel No Pain. If your opponents target the Sanguinor with shooting then he will take the heat off those units. This tactic forces your opponent to make a hard decision and this means they might make a bad decision. It is kind of like a chess game. The Sanguinor is your red queen so you must use him wisely. The more you play him the better you will use him. It's that simple so I say if you have some interest then play some games with the Sanguinor. As noted he is a scapel not a sledge hammer.

The difficulty in using the Sanguinor isn't in how to use the Sanguinor, it's in using the entire rest of your army. Remember he's a team player, so he should be with the team. The question to ask is what type of BA army is being played?

In a mechanized list you could keep him with a formation of troops, possibly next to the hardest hitting unit such as a death company in a land raider or storm raven. It's rather easy to hide him behind a land raider. Personally I"m a fan of jump spam/DOA lists over mech because assault marines with jump packs have an 18" threat range for a charge compared to 14" for a mechanized list, but mech is what most players know and love. The problem with the Sanguinor in a mech list is mech lists tend to get split up, as transports are destroyed some units fall behind and end up out of his attack die radius. The difficulty many players have using him in a mech list is probably why the Sanguinor is unpopular.

He's just downright mean in the middle of a double deathstar list such as 2 units of death company or terminators. Termies with 5 LC 5TH/SS Termie Priest and Termie Libby with unleash rage is my favorite BA deathstar. The problem with a double deathstar list is you have to know how to use 2 deathstars that are close to each other, and your opponent will usually stay the hell away from that double dose of doom. Death Company are vulnerable to having their transport destroyed and their own rage, while terminators are slow. Either choice can be a difficult to use deathstar, but in either situation if the death star can be used well the Sanguinor will make them even worse.

Last but not least the jump spam/doa list. In a list where every unit is a bike or jump infantry and no vehicles or foot infantry are present the Sanguinor can really shine. The list does have some weaknesses, and can be difficult to use, but it has a lot of potential. For starters in a tournament the complete lack of vehicles makes many weapons a poor choice, so all you need to focus on is taking out whatever units are optimized for killing FNP MEQ. The list is fast and can deploy normally or DOA. The speed of the list allows it to outmaneuver most armies. If you can pick your fights and keep your fights unfair the entire list will do very well, and if the entire list does well the Sanguinor multiplies that effect.

yeah ive been trying an assault spam army, but lately i think it would be better to have a sang guard spam army.

I would like to try out double deathstar unit! that sounds great with sanguinor!

The Sanguinary Guard are really cool but they lack of an invulnerable save for only five Marines is a weakness. I would rather put those points into either Honor Guard or Vanguard veterans with stormshields.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinary Guard are really cool but they lack of an invulnerable save for only five Marines is a weakness. I would rather put those points into either Honor Guard or Vanguard veterans with stormshields.

Jump spam needs either sang guard or honor guard for the banner, it makes a huge difference for leadership. Both units have their pros and cons. The only reason I choose sang guard is they are cheaper than decked out hg, and the presence of a priest next to the banner tends to make the unit a fire magnet. Hg is a great unit, sg is just my preference.

If I'm playing Dante then I'm almost certainly taking a unit of Sanguinary Guard. They're a lot better when they're a troops choice because they don't compete with your elites choices and scoring units with a 2+ save are always nice. If I'm not playing Dante, I won't bother with the Sanguinary Guard.

I ALWAYS take at least one Honor Guard. They pretty much always have 4x Plasma Gun. I don't really give them a banner ever though. I take the Chapter Banner with my Sanguinary Guard, but the LD stuff isn't too big a deal with ATSKNF and LD 9/10 all over the army. I take it because it takes the SG from decent to quite good in close combat, especially when there is a Priest in range.

I don't think that there is a choice between Sanguinary Guard and Honor Guard. I think Honor Guard are outstanding and Sanguinary Guard are only worth it when they're a scoring unit. I'd take either just an Honor Guard, or both of them. To me an Honor Guard is just crucial in a DoA based list. The extra firepower and survivability (Chalice) that you get from them is absolutely fantastic.

I just finished a mini tourny playing with Sang and in three games this is the observation, note that I went undefeated and he did not die in any game I played.

G1) Against Nids, Tervigons, MC Heavy. Sanginor came in and killed Tyrant, 2 Bodyguards and the turn after ate a Tyrannofex on the charge. Mephiston would have killed the Tfex just fine I think, but against the Tyrant with Bswords and his inabiilty to single the tyrant out, Mephiston could have died before he could get a deathblow in due to bonesword instant death and being Init 1 cause of lash. The Invul is what let me survive to do damage.

G2) Dark Eldar (Using old codex still) Sang went in and totalled a 290 point HQ and then a 320 point HQ. (Dracon and and Archon can't remember which was which, one had that shadow field though.) Both the HQ's had Full incubi with power weapons and drugs, always strike first. Again the lack of Invul saves would have mephiston most likely dead in the combat. 3 Agonizer attacks hitting on 3's wounding on 4's with reroll to wnd and always strike first.

G3) Eldar, 3 Wraithlords 2 Wraithguard troop unit army. This was a tough match up for the sanginor, and mephiston would have been a much better choice to take against this, ID s against the wreathlords at Str ten would have let him hit one or two, as was Sangy killed none, and was tarpitted for the game.

So based on this conclusion, I say there is no better per say, but a better fit in your list and gaming scene. If you have a lot of MC heavy Land raider heavy lists, Meph is great great choice, against enemy death star units like other libbys in termie armour or Something like the skull taker things that can survive mephiston for a tourn or two and hit with power weaps and ID things, then Sang is a better choice. Against a big horde list, Sang does get the edge of the attacks bubble, but an honour guard can get a banner doing the same thing.