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I am making a DoA BA army, and I was thinkiing of using a special character, (not dante i don't like Sang Guard much) and was thinking about using Sanguinor or Astorath the Grim.

I was looking at their special rules and both have huge point values and cool rules. I want to know if Sangunior is worth the points you pAy! he is hugely expensive.

I also was wondering if Astorath is any good in a DoA BA army that isnt maxed out on DC

Dunno about the Sanguinor, but a friend ran a Dante/Astorath army for Red thrist Sang guard troops. It did great against other "I'm coming to getcha, porkchop" armies. not so much against Tau.

I know nothing other then that i have heard Sanguinor is a beast

He's pretty terrible for his cost. He'll never contribute enough to a battle to make that up.

I like the sanguinor more than mephiston.

DarknessEternal wrote:He's pretty terrible for his cost. He'll never contribute enough to a battle to make that up.

The Sanguinor is an absolute beast in a jump spam army. It's rather easy to put him in the middle of 40 assault marines along with a priest. If they each have 2 melta guns each squad will be up to 35 Str5 I5 attacks + 4 Str9 Power fist attacks.

The total will go from 100 Str5 attacks and 12 str 9 power fist attacks to 140 str 5 attacks and 16 str 9 power fist attacks (17 pfist attacks 5 of which will be at WS5 if the enhanced sergeant is in the mix)

Never contribute enough a battle to make up for hist cost? When in the middle of a wave of assault marines the Sanguinor can add 40 str5 attacks and 5 str9 attacks in a single assault phase, with 40 str 4 and 5 str8 attacks following in every other assault phase.

If i feel the need to spend too much on an hq, i go with sanguinor over mephailston.

He most certainly contributes enough to the battle, mini captaining a sarge, adding +1a to everything enarby and just kicking ass by himself. He can down most things in the game solo without problems, especially enemy ICs.

IMO he is over-costed. All you need is bolters (or anything AP4) to bring down his 3 Wounds at T4.

One squad of boyz with shootas could take him down; even with a 2+ save.

For 25 points over Mephiston, he is not worth it, imo - especially considering Meph can fleet, and will most likely get his Wings power off.

I'd only sparingly consider him for a jump pack army; as someone said above, so you can get those extra attacks. Remember though: he is NOT an IC, meaning most armies will gun/horde him down before he does anything.

Magnalon wrote:IMO he is over-costed. All you need is bolters (or anything AP4) to bring down his 3 Wounds at T4.

One squad of boyz with shootas could take him down; even with a 2+ save.

For 25 points over Mephiston, he is not worth it, imo - especially considering Meph can fleet, and will most likely get his Wings power off.

I'd only sparingly consider him for a jump pack army; as someone said above, so you can get those extra attacks. Remember though: he is NOT an IC, meaning most armies will gun/horde him down before he does anything.

That's true, you only need bolters to kill him. You need a hell of a lot of them, though. Especially if he's in a Sanguinary Priest bubble. Rough mathhammer indicates you'd need around six full Tactical Squads in Rapid Fire range to kill him with bolters if he's in an SP bubble. And if you're wasting six Tac Squads' worth of shooting on the Sanguinor in a turn, chances are he's paid for himself in that alone.

huh he seems def worth checking out it seems. I think i will!

schadenfreude wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:He's pretty terrible for his cost. He'll never contribute enough to a battle to make that up.

The Sanguinor is an absolute beast in a jump spam army. It's rather easy to put him in the middle of 40 assault marines along with a priest. If they each have 2 melta guns each squad will be up to 35 Str5 I5 attacks + 4 Str9 Power fist attacks.

The total will go from 100 Str5 attacks and 12 str 9 power fist attacks to 140 str 5 attacks and 16 str 9 power fist attacks (17 pfist attacks 5 of which will be at WS5 if the enhanced sergeant is in the mix)

Never contribute enough a battle to make up for hist cost? When in the middle of a wave of assault marines the Sanguinor can add 40 str5 attacks and 5 str9 attacks in a single assault phase, with 40 str 4 and 5 str8 attacks following in every other assault phase.

I think this said it all.

Shootas mathammer.

3 shots to hit, 6 to wound, 36 to fail an armor save, 72 to fail fnp, 216 to kill hom, 2 shots per shoota so 36 shootas to cause 1 wound and 108 shoota boys to kill him.

I might be new to playing orcs but sending in over a hundred boys into assault range and giving up the charge to 50 or so ba assault marines seems like a really bad idea.

He can be pretty fun, but he doesn't have the same 'bring the pain' feeling of some of the other BA HQ choices. His low wound/toughness is what keeps him off most of my lists. Sure he gives the extra attack, but I've found just trying to make a giant clusterbomb of assault squads around him to benefit off of it to not be very tactically sound.

I am no tactician. Your average Joe has probably played multiple of ten more games than I have. That being said, a young pup like me can appreciate the epic quality to a personal duel between mighty individuals.

Armies that shoot their enemy from afar can never achieve this value. (Though, as a Guard player, I can appreciate the satisfaction to be found in blowing things to bits with heavy ordinance.)

But so, though I cannot pretend to have tactical experience with the sanguinor, I do understand the glory seeking factor.

So go for it.

Slick wrote:He can be pretty fun, but he doesn't have the same 'bring the pain' feeling of some of the other BA HQ choices. His low wound/toughness is what keeps him off most of my lists. Sure he gives the extra attack, but I've found just trying to make a giant clusterbomb of assault squads around him to benefit off of it to not be very tactically sound.

He's really not as weak as you think. He'll beat a Thunderlord to death with said Thunderlord's own arm, for example, and not a lot of other BA choices can do that, save Meph.

Ork Shoota Boyz math is kind of silly.


Loota fire on the other hand....



I've played a few games with him. He's pretty nasty but most times Methamphetamine--fiston is better. Only time Methfiston isn't...is when you play a heavy anti-psy army, then he suffers.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Ork Shoota Boyz math is kind of silly.


Loota fire on the other hand....



I've played a few games with him. He's pretty nasty but most times Methamphetamine--fiston is better. Only time Methfiston isn't...is when you play a heavy anti-psy army, then he suffers.

Or face anything with an ID-causing ability. Or want more than a beatstick, such as a beatstick + force multiplier.

Mephiston's a better combat character in most circumstances. Sanguinor can beat most things you're going to be throwing him at and buffs your army quite well.

I have a friend who plays a jump pack army and fields both Sanguinor and mephiston (i think it's mephiston, it had the psycher powers that let it move 12 and the str 10 hit) , its one of the few lists that has beaten my orks. Its expensive but it does a good job.

If you don't want to play Dante and you insist on using a special character then Sanguinor is the right choice for a jump pack/DoA based list. I've tested him a bit in my list and I've had good results with him. Sometimes the extra attack bubble ends up just being outrageously good, and he is a monster in CC himself. The buff he gives to a random Sarge is also pretty cool because it's like making a mini character.

Ultimately I don't think he's worth his points, but he is good.

Seaward wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Ork Shoota Boyz math is kind of silly.


Loota fire on the other hand....



I've played a few games with him. He's pretty nasty but most times Methamphetamine--fiston is better. Only time Methfiston isn't...is when you play a heavy anti-psy army, then he suffers.

Or face anything with an ID-causing ability. Or want more than a beatstick, such as a beatstick + force multiplier.

Mephiston's a better combat character in most circumstances. Sanguinor can beat most things you're going to be throwing him at and buffs your army quite well.

Very few things cause ID and very, very few things cause ID to a T6 I7 combat monster like Methfiston. I've never had him IDd.

Unlike vanilla marine force multipliers, for the most part, Sang only force multiplies if he stays alive. 275 pts on a 3 wound T4 chassis that can't hide in units...and needs to be in the thick of it to force multiply.....is a pretty risky bet. I think Ward overpriced him.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Very few things cause ID and very, very few things cause ID to a T6 I7 combat monster like Methfiston. I've never had him IDd.

Unlike vanilla marine force multipliers, for the most part, Sang only force multiplies if he stays alive. 275 pts on a 3 wound T4 chassis that can't hide in units...and needs to be in the thick of it to force multiply.....is a pretty risky bet. I think Ward overpriced him.

Well, you could always run into Sicarius. Or the Tyranid wargear that IDs. But you're right, it's not a common situation.

Sanguinor is definitely overpriced, but I think he was priced with the assumption that he'd always be within an FnP bubble. He's awfully hard to kill by anything but craptons of dedicated plasma in one of those. As soon as you get him into CC, he should be golden, as there's really not much he can't hold his own against.

Seaward wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Very few things cause ID and very, very few things cause ID to a T6 I7 combat monster like Methfiston. I've never had him IDd.

Unlike vanilla marine force multipliers, for the most part, Sang only force multiplies if he stays alive. 275 pts on a 3 wound T4 chassis that can't hide in units...and needs to be in the thick of it to force multiply.....is a pretty risky bet. I think Ward overpriced him.

Well, you could always run into Sicarius. Or the Tyranid wargear that IDs. But you're right, it's not a common situation.

Sanguinor is definitely overpriced, but I think he was priced with the assumption that he'd always be within an FnP bubble. He's awfully hard to kill by anything but craptons of dedicated plasma in one of those. As soon as you get him into CC, he should be golden, as there's really not much he can't hold his own against.

Sicarius would get his face beat before attempting his 25% (I think?) chance to kill Methfiston. You are aware that Methy has special abilities v. IC, psy powers and causes ID too...

We agree that Sang is overpriced. FNP is nice but still....

30 Loota shots
9-10ish hits
8ish wounds
2-3ish failed saves
1-2ish wounds after his failed FNPs

So a couple groups of average Loota shots (assuming 15 strong groups and roll of 3-4 on the dice) bring him down to 1 wound (Or kill him depending on a dice)...so I don't know. Which is too bad because I want to like him.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

We agree that Sang is overpriced. FNP is nice but still....

30 Loota shots
9-10ish hits
8ish wounds
2-3ish failed saves
1-2ish wounds after his failed FNPs

So a couple groups of average Loota shots (assuming 15 strong groups and roll of 3-4 on the dice) bring him down to 1 wound (Or kill him depending on a dice)...so I don't know. Which is too bad because I want to like him.

Well, no. 15 Lootas getting the maximum amount of shots - 45 - still statistically only put two wounds on him while he's in a FnP bubble, which isn't all that terrible, given that those shots could've done a lot more damage elsewhere. Mephiston weathers them better, of course, but that's not a shocker. We could compare a plasma Honor Guard squad next, if ya like.

Thing is, you should probably be DoAing Sangy, unless you've got a reliable armor wall. He should only ever spend one turn getting shot at. If the other guy chooses to devote his entire shooting phase to bringing down one model, so be it.

Seaward wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

We agree that Sang is overpriced. FNP is nice but still....

30 Loota shots
9-10ish hits
8ish wounds
2-3ish failed saves
1-2ish wounds after his failed FNPs

So a couple groups of average Loota shots (assuming 15 strong groups and roll of 3-4 on the dice) bring him down to 1 wound (Or kill him depending on a dice)...so I don't know. Which is too bad because I want to like him.

Well, no. 15 Lootas getting the maximum amount of shots - 45 - still statistically only put two wounds on him while he's in a FnP bubble, which isn't all that terrible, given that those shots could've done a lot more damage elsewhere. Mephiston weathers them better, of course, but that's not a shocker. We could compare a plasma Honor Guard squad next, if ya like.

I was just using an average roll (30 shots) v. a maximum roll (45 as you listed). However, I was using a 3+ save instead of a 2+! Good catch and I'll start an internet fad by admitting I was wrong! Still, I think it would be worth throwing all my Loota fire to down a 275 model...even if he's just one guy.

Just most times...I think I would take all Methy over Sang...unless I play Eldar.

Loota Math

1/3 shots hit 5/6 shots wound 1/6 fail armor save 1/2 fail FNP=5/216 shots wound so it takes about so it takes 43 shots to land a single wound on the Sanguinor.

Mephiston has no invul save, that alone makes him nigh on useless, not even taking into account psychic defense crippling him completely.

If you feel the need to spend near 300 pts on an hq, go with sanguinor, he rocks mephistons face.

kill dem stunties wrote:Mephiston has no invul save, that alone makes him nigh on useless, not even taking into account psychic defense crippling him completely.

If you feel the need to spend near 300 pts on an hq, go with sanguinor, he rocks mephistons face.

6 str 10 attacks force weapon attacks on the charge is nigh on useless? potential 24" threat range is useless? ok...

Mephiston kills mostly anything you point him at, and he kills MC's with ease. Sanguinor kills the one IC you allocate then he's just an overpriced captain. Meph laughs while Sanguinor craps himself at massed bolter fire. Meph kills any vehicle you need him to, sanguinor struggles against war walkers.

If Meph got the charge on Sang, he'd kill Sang next turn.

Hardly useless.

Needless and rulebreaking personal attack removed.

Jabbdo wrote:
6 str 10 attacks force weapon attacks on the charge is nigh on useless? potential 24" threat range is useless? ok...

No, those are both exceptional. Unfortunately, it's really all he brings to the table.

Mephiston kills mostly anything you point him at, and he kills MC's with ease. Sanguinor kills the one IC you allocate then he's just an overpriced captain.

Uh, not quite.

Meph laughs while Sanguinor craps himself at massed bolter fire.

We've been over this. It takes six squads of Tacticals in Rapid Fire range to kill Sanguinor via bolters. On the other hand, it takes one squad of plasmagun Honor Guard to kill Meph.

Meph kills any vehicle you need him to, sanguinor struggles against war walkers.

That's irrelevant in my case, if I'm spending 250+ on an HQ unit, I won't be sending them around vehicle hunting.

If Meph got the charge on Sang, he'd kill Sang next turn.

I'm not so sure. I'll mathhammer it out a little later when I've got the codex handy.

Hey, good to see you're not taking this discussion or yourself too seriously.

Muffy the Vampire Slayer Slayer is deadly in CC and he can get there quick, but the Sanguinor actually give the army someone other than a beatstick.

i just used him in a game yesterday and he worked out well. he was a beast in close combat, wrecking whole squads before even the honor guard could attack! He then killed shrike, and a bunch of assault marines. The reroll against a HQ is amazing againss heroes that need to die or hand out army special rules, and making on of your serg. basically a captain didn't help me out too much but seems very cool! My army as a whole could have done better, thou i did win, but he did great. I unluckily forgot about the added attack, if i had remembered I think he would have done a bit better.

what do you guys think is the best unit for him to go into? I did an honor squad with PW and a Champion.

i dont like meph cause he is an IC that anyone can target so he just gets shot to pieces. not to say he isnt good, he is just soem crazy good warrior whoo I've seen die before he gets to do anything good. anyway i like heroes who help the army as a whole rather than just do mad damage.