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Commissar Agro wrote:Loved the fluff, but was shocked by the role reversal of BT and BL because I play BT and linked this to my friend who plays BL.

@ Ivan: how aren't the tau more advanced than the imperium? The tau are constantly inventing new and better weapons while the last time something was invented in the Imperium, the Emperor wasn't intombed in the Goldern Throne (ok its a bit exagerated). They are only limited by their ablitly to only make short warp jumps because they don't have the navigator gene or something like the webway. But they will be crushed eventually by the Imperium.

Agro. You forget. THey do not have anything like the imperium they can't even leave their own homesystems! They have horrible horrible ships.
An imperial fleet devastated a tau fleet with no problems.
The tau may be able to do stuff like evolve. But they can't make warp jumps at all.
They would be devastated by the life eater virus.
They were owned by the orks!
And let us not forget many other things!
Also Guys. I studied alot of Tau stuff. Thinking omg. These guys are high tech. Then I looked at their ships and read about them. Omg they fail so much.
Tanks = fail. As a Freaking plasma cannon, or a bolt pistol Blew one up! face it tau are not that good. They are young.
And in the problem with kill teams. Don't you guys remember Ordo Xeno's Deathwatch use Alien technology all the time! They know how to make invisibility the Imperium has alot of tech. People keep forgetting the Imperium does advance! It does!
like the Iron Clad, the Land Speeder Storm, the Thunderfire cannon, and different types of bolters.
The Imperium has the Tau beat.

Also the Dornian Hersey doesn't sound cool at all. It sounds. Actually kinda stupid....
I really dislike Dorn being traitor. It doesn't make sense especially if he is so freaking loyal.

I found it a great read. Especially the Ultramarines part (since it reversed the perspective that all the other entries are written with).

IvanTih wrote:I love their fluff,but I hate when they think that tau are more advanced than the Imperium which they clearly aren't.

They're advanced in different ways than the Imperium.

Since the Ultramarines already have the Imperium tech (and since the Imperium isn't really inventing much new stuff), the Tau are providing a new source of tech that they haven't mastered.

And also, miniaturization of technology does count as more advanced tech (As does enlargement of technology). Since the Tau have railguns both on their ships and on their battlefield vehicles, their railgun tech is more advanced than the Imperium's.

kenshin620 wrote:For the BA to Nurgle, well I cant think of any other legion going to them. Maybe Ravenguard since they love subtlety and ominous birds are usually a sign of a plague.

I always thought the Iron Hands would make great Nurgle marines. Despising the weakness of their rotting flesh, they constantly cut away and replace their parts with bionics, only to have them rust, become corrupt, and mutate once more into hideous diseased flesh. Plague cyborgs of death, now that justifies Feel no Pain.

I didn't like this. Now, I'm not gonna rant on it, as that would be somewhat unfair given that someone has gone to a lot of effort to do it, but there are a few problems.
Firstly, yeah, for a lot of this it seems they just transposed legions for one another a la "Legion A is now Legion B." Often, these changes don't really make sense. I can't see the artistic, classical BA falling to Nurgle, somehow.
Secondly, they seem to have overlooked that some characters were traitors from the beginning. Take Typhus, for example, who had been in contact with Papa Nurgle even before the Heresy started. As he was the guy who got the DG stranded in the warp in the first place so they could succumb to the Destroyer Plague, I find it hard to believe he just up and became a good guy for no reason. The same, I think, applies to Erebus of the Word Bearers; I'm fairly sure he converted Lorgar to Chaos, and went from him to the entire legion. In addition, it's the individual character of the legions and the Primarchs that led to their fall/loyalty. Unless you work damn hard to justify it, I don't think you can just say "Sanguinius is an equivalent to Mortarion!" and get away with it. Angron overcoming his rage and becoming a better person probably isn't likely, given that he was lobotomised that way rather than it being a personality flaw. I still kinda liked the stuff on the Ultramarines though.
I dunno, there's a lot of plot points in this that could have been explained better. It's a great effort, but even so.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I didn't like this. Now, I'm not gonna rant on it, as that would be somewhat unfair given that someone has gone to a lot of effort to do it, but there are a few problems.
Firstly, yeah, for a lot of this it seems they just transposed legions for one another a la "Legion A is now Legion B." Often, these changes don't really make sense. I can't see the artistic, classical BA falling to Nurgle, somehow.
Secondly, they seem to have overlooked that some characters were traitors from the beginning. Take Typhus, for example, who had been in contact with Papa Nurgle even before the Heresy started. As he was the guy who got the DG stranded in the warp in the first place so they could succumb to the Destroyer Plague, I find it hard to believe he just up and became a good guy for no reason. The same, I think, applies to Erebus of the Word Bearers; I'm fairly sure he converted Lorgar to Chaos, and went from him to the entire legion. In addition, it's the individual character of the legions and the Primarchs that led to their fall/loyalty. Unless you work damn hard to justify it, I don't think you can just say "Sanguinius is an equivalent to Mortarion!" and get away with it. Angron overcoming his rage and becoming a better person probably isn't likely, given that he was lobotomised that way rather than it being a personality flaw. I still kinda liked the stuff on the Ultramarines though.
I dunno, there's a lot of plot points in this that could have been explained better. It's a great effort, but even so.

not every writer can be the equalivent of Ice Angel or Dark Lord Seanron

Yeah, maybe so.
Perhaps I'm being harsh, but you'd think they would have noticed some of these. Still, there was some nice ideas in it.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Secondly, they seem to have overlooked that some characters were traitors from the beginning.

This was done. Check out some of the supporting fluff parts on the Word Bearers and Emperor's Children in the document (The Word Bearer's example is hilarious, by the way).

However, I was confused as to why Erebus wasn't mentioned; perhaps they decided to replace him?

That seems a little odd, given his massive role in the Heresy. Why avoid mentioning Erebus?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That seems a little odd, given his massive role in the Heresy. Why avoid mentioning Erebus?

Well, a similar figure is mentioned: Kor Phaeron.

However, he dies before he can ever tell Lorgar of the chaos gods.

If I remember right Lorgar was exercised by Lorgar for being a Heretic in the Dornian Heresy.

Also again please keep in mind that the Dornian Heresy isn't complete yet so just because some characters haven't been mentioned yet dosen't mean that they won't be mentioned at all.

I do not know if this has been discused on another thread, but why is every comment a suck up to bolter and chainsword? I read about the first page of comments, and not a single one was negetive or gave constructive criticism, unlike here where people actually express their opinions. All any of the comments say how Bolter and Chainsword is the best site ever and how great it is, not a mention of most of it switching chapter A with chapter B; and not making much sence. I know people have been reprimanded on that site for, god forbid, mentioning somthing other than space marines; but are people not even allowed to express their opinions on that site?

General Seric wrote:I do not know if this has been discused on another thread, but why is every comment a suck up to bolter and chainsword? I read about the first page of comments, and not a single one was negetive or gave constructive criticism, unlike here where people actually express their opinions. All any of the comments say how Bolter and Chainsword is the best site ever and how great it is, not a mention of most of it switching chapter A with chapter B; and not making much sence. I know people have been reprimanded on that site for, god forbid, mentioning somthing other than space marines; but are people not even allowed to express their opinions on that site?

It HAS to be a conspiracy.

Or it could be that the first page of posters enjoyed the Dornian Heresy.

For my part, I like Bolter and Chainsword for its Power Armor focus.

General Seric wrote:I do not know if this has been discused on another thread, but why is every comment a suck up to bolter and chainsword? I read about the first page of comments, and not a single one was negetive or gave constructive criticism, unlike here where people actually express their opinions. All any of the comments say how Bolter and Chainsword is the best site ever and how great it is, not a mention of most of it switching chapter A with chapter B; and not making much sence. I know people have been reprimanded on that site for, god forbid, mentioning somthing other than space marines; but are people not even allowed to express their opinions on that site?

Maybe they were impressed by the immense amount of effort put into making this a reality?

I'm certainly impressed.

Or it could simply be that they (including myself as a member of B&C) genuinly liked it and that anything that members of B&C thought needed to be fixed was done prior to the final organization of the Heresy.

As for being able to express your opinion on the site, you should see some of the arguments myself and others get into over there about opinions.

Dunno, I liked the detail level and general vibe of the DH, but it seemed like they tried too hard to switch everything perfectly. There are, based on the fluff, just certain primarchs and legions that would have ended up on the loyalist/ traitor sides.

It seems like they altered the fluff to suit their goals of having the legions switch, rather than doing the logical thing and picking a certain point of departure. I personally feel that Dorn is one of the thoroughly incorruptible primarchs, especially with the character he displays in Nemesis. I disagree with them randomly switching the fluff, I'd personally pick one specific event, and extrapolate where thing would go from there.

For example, Erebus dies early. From that, Horus is able to resist the chaos powers on davin, the Word Bearers remain untainted, as do all the Legions Horus brought over through friendship and charisma.

Therefore we think of the others that could be corrupted, the best possibility of which I personally believe to be Magnus. He trafficked with powers of the warp already, saw himself as more knowledgeable than his father, and if he cut loose, was more powerful than any other primarch. He easily could be the replacement Horus. Dorn had all or most of Horus's wit, coupled with greater humility and loyalty.

The idea of Gulliman ever having the balls to declare independence seems farcical to me. The Khan falling to slanesh seems reasonable, but I'd say sanguinius dying and his legion - but not him, the saint, falling to Khorne worship is a good fit. The Wolves would make a great replacement for the Night Lords - fighting with chaos but not for it, and as I said above, the idea of nurgle blessed Iron Hands is awesome. I don't see Vulkan randomly deciding to be a dick because he got burned, or any of the primarchs listening to Abbadon.

But see all of that is predictable and it's the same thing that everyone has ever done which is why the author choose to do alot of what he did. Now I agree there are things that could have been done better or differantly, but as far as fan fiction goes it was still well done IMHO.

Neat stuff. I was hoping for a alternate Dark Angels story but I guess they stay as ambiguous as ever.

He hasen't covered Dark Angels yet.

I understand not liking things to be predictable and staid, but wildly changing things willy nilly to make them the way you want them disrespects the fluff and the characters that have evolved over the years. It's like the alternate history genre; its perfectly fine to create a story where Abraham Lincoln or Cromwell were killed early in life and where the world would have gone if that happened. It's lame as gak to create a world where Abraham Lincoln invented the internal combustion engine, Robert Lee had built the first I phone, and Microsoft had been founded as a group of ne'er do well rogues patrolling the carribean in search of Loot n' Plunder. Even though they are fictional characters, they have a history, persona, and beliefs, and changing those for basically no reason except that you think it's cool is fine, but hardly better than someone extrapolating from their actual backgrounds

Wow. Aparently you have a hatred for fan fiction that has absolutly no bearing on cannon.

I hate to break it to you but creating an alternate fan made heresy isn't "disrespectfull" to the established characters or history. It is simply someone having fun creating his own version of a story which is perfectly allowable and just because you don't approve of it dosen't mean that it is in any way dissrespectfull. If that was the case then every piece of fluff ever used by any player to create their own stories and backgrounds has been disrespectfull to the original cannon simply by being made.

Everybody chill.
I may dislike a large portion of the Dornian Heresy, but let's not forget what it is; a fan-made effort. Simply by putting in the effort they have, they've made it a worthwhile venture, and though I have listed the disagreements I have with it, that does not in any way negate that effort.
Could be worse, you know. By fanfic standards, this is a masterpiece. Not a single piece of questionable wish-fulfilment anywhere.

Fan fiction is fine and dandy, much like sour candy. The tone of my post was hardly one that fan made ideas are bad or useless.

I simply implied that altering the entire back story of a universe to suit your obviously pre arranged goals in a way which changes the characters completely was cheapening everyone involved, and a similar end could be accomplished with greater subtlety and in a more cohesive manner than "we want Blood Angels to be Nurgle, so this happened".

Making things different simply to make them different does not make them better. If you dislike the idea that a bunch of blood drinking rage fueled vampires are an excellent fit for a god centered around blood and rage, then that is your opinion, and I have very little interest in trying to sway you. Saying that this is predictable does not make it bad, it makes it logical.

Also, disrespectful is spelled with one L.

Seems fair enough extrapolating if the Loyalist primarchs were the ones who turned to Chaos and vice versa.

There but for the grace of god

Doesnt seem like it was a big push that made any of the Primarchs turn. Could easily have been some of the others.

to reiterate, I like the tone and vibe of the effort, it just seems like there were parts where they had no real reason for certain events, and made them happen simply because they wanted them that way.

Bromsy wrote:to reiterate, I like the tone and vibe of the effort, it just seems like there were parts where they had no real reason for certain events, and made them happen simply because they wanted them that way.

Yeah, I mentioned that. *shrug* maybe there's a reason for it that they haven't shared yet?.... I got nothing.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Seems fair enough extrapolating if the Loyalist primarchs were the ones who turned to Chaos and vice versa.

There but for the grace of god

Doesnt seem like it was a big push that made any of the Primarchs turn. Could easily have been some of the others.

I stand by my beliefs that there are certain primarchs that would have turned traitor, and ones that would have remained loyal, barring complete personality changes. That is my major problem with the work - Dorn would not have turned traitor. Their work predates much of his characterization in the latter HH novels, but even before that he is shown to value loyalty and honor above anything he himself believes in; to the point of following a codex astartes he did not believe in in order to maintain the imperium, or being willing to lose everything he holds dear rather than see it won by impure means. He lacks the flaws that chaos could exploit, namely pride, vanity, arrogance, or hate. Just so, if Angron lived to be united with his legion, their descent into chaos worship was well nigh inevitable. Most primarchs fall into the middle, between the two. Even Fulgrim, one of the most loyal primarchs, had the killer vulnerability of pride that Chaos could exploit. Dorn lacked this, and thus would have never turned traitor. Gulliman, the great vaccilator, would also never have betrayed the emperor. Not out of loyalty, but out of his overwhelming prudence. He would never have risked himself for anything.

Not sure i agree.
Dorn got to feel like the 2nd favourite son when he was chosen to protect terra. what if he didnt and perturabo got the job?
Its like if Horus got overlooked for been the Warmaster and lion el johnson got that job.
In the fiction Dorn doesnt seem to have been tested. he was kept close to the Emperor and was too busy building defenses to ever doubt himself or his father. None of the primarchs would have turned to chaos if they were on Terra.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Not sure i agree.
Dorn got to feel like the 2nd favourite son when he was chosen to protect terra. what if he didnt and perturabo got the job?
Its like if Horus got overlooked for been the Warmaster and lion el johnson got that job.
In the fiction Dorn doesnt seem to have been tested. he was kept close to the Emperor and was too busy building defenses to ever doubt himself or his father. None of the primarchs would have turned to chaos if they were on Terra.

So so wrong.
Lion El Johnson??!?!??! WARMASTER?!?!?!?
WHAT?!?!?
Basically the Dornian hersey is basically the horus hersey but they scratched out the names and put in different legions in.
Dorn does not feel pride. He hates himself. Chaos cannot expolit that. As he would never turn his back on the imperium. When someone told him that Horus was a betrayer he went berserk, he stayed in his study for hours medatiating playing it through his mind.
Also horus was loyal but he was basically having a fit. As he thought that Emperor wasn't giving him enough attention. Believe it or not, the Emperors Childern damned themselves when they picked up that daemon sword, of course why IN hells name would pick something up that is telling you to pick it up, saying i will give you the universe? Wouldn't you run away from the weapon?
And Pertruabo the same thing, dumb . Angron, he was just made to be angry.
Corax was just into beauty and he loved the emperor more than anything. Chaos couldn't do to him because he was noble and he saw value in life.
Vulkan was a craftsmen, he was saved by the Emperor, and vulkan loved the Emperor's work.
Magnus was an idiot who didn't know that making a deal with a Daemon usually means that they usually go back on their demands.
Robute Gulliman was Proud, hence why I believe one day he will betray the Imperium.
Alphairus probably the best one of all them, he chose to side with chaos, and Omegaon was like this and left.
Sangunius is Sangunius he had no sign of taint and he was pure. The blood angels would never betray the emperor.
Night Haunter is basically batman who decided to do drugs, and make horrible choices, and tear people limb from limb, Night Haunter just was blood lusty and slowly over time he fell.
Logar was just evil, he wanted to rule the universe if anything the Horus Hersey should be Named Logarian Hersey.
Ferrus Manus would go berserk if anyone tried to ask him to join The Hersey.
Motarian just got pulled into it, he was tricked, he was the only one that does not really make sense as to why. But The destroyer plague really messed him up.
Leman russ, well Leman Russ basically had a drinking contest with the Emperor. And the Emperor got drunk basically after like 5,000 beers and Leman Russ basically said "Ok, your good, Where do i sign up?" He hated horus, he didn't really like that many people.
The Lion was basically the only one that could ever turn as he really had a dark side to him. But considering that he only fought for humanity and for the good of it. I highly doubt that he would turn.

So guys you can tear apart my post saying thats not true. And thats not true. But I choose to believe what I believe. I love the Horus Hersey. I would usually devour lore like this but. Facts are facts. And you can't change the past. You can't just replace each primarchs traits with each other. They were named according to their abilities. It is pretty well stupid to do something like the Dornian Hersey. I will not read this at all.

Great thing is opinions are not absolutions and people can in fact "change the past" and "replace each primarchs traits with each other" considering that it is a fictional universe.

Another great thing is that one persons opinion of what is stupid does not equal another persons.

And a REALLY REALLY great thing is Dakkas ignore button which I will now use

Personally I like the idea behind the Dornian Heresy and the mirrored 40k universe fee to it. I’ve personally read and enjoyed it however I also thought some of the mirrored fluff was quite flawed. The Horus/Abaddon fluff was so terrible it hurts and a lot of the other mirrored chaos legions didn’t appear to have been given the same time and depth by the author as the mirrored loyalist legions (Loyalist Angron appears to be more 1 dimensional than traitor Angron ). I think because of this, the Dornian Heresy will never be more than just a half decent fan story in my book.

That being said, the Dornian Heresy has inspired me to one day start a mirrored Chaos Legion army one day (with decent mirrored fluff to boot).