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Alright, I went to B&C, and their banner add was for something called the Dornian Heresy. It was accompanied by a picture of Rogal Dorn, but instead of the fist icon on his shoulder, it was the chaos star. Their little project was about switching the roles of the Legions. So the traitors are now loyalists, and the loyalists are traitors. This is only part one, as it hasn't been finished. To give a good explanation, here is one of the quotes by one of the authors:

This premier issue is devoted to chronicling something a little different; a twisted alternate timeline in which Warmaster Horus was able to cast off the daemonic influences that sought to possess him, and where the Ruinous Powers were instead forced to corrupt Rogal Dorn to overthrow the Emperor. The Dornian Heresy is the tale of an alternate universe where choices, sometimes large, sometimes small, have led to the familiar primarchs and legions meeting very different fates. For instance, how different might things have turned out if Sanguinius had instead been found and raised by the mutant tribes of Baal, or if Angron's first meeting with the Emperor had been as an honourable ally against the slavers at Fedan Mhor?

Let me put it this way, once this is opened, the things seen and read can not be unseen. I am not syaing its BAD, I am just saying seeing the heros as twisted mutants, being the things they are meant to fight, is a little... well... creepy. Tzeentch Raven Guard, mark16 power armor Ultra marine and loyalist crusading Word Bearers all await. Here's the link to the forum. Some might like it, some might hate it, but its at least worth a look. Without further ado...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=200543

I love their fluff,but I hate when they think that tau are more advanced than the Imperium which they clearly aren't.

Loved the fluff, but was shocked by the role reversal of BT and BL because I play BT and linked this to my friend who plays BL.

@ Ivan: how aren't the tau more advanced than the imperium? The tau are constantly inventing new and better weapons while the last time something was invented in the Imperium, the Emperor wasn't intombed in the Goldern Throne (ok its a bit exagerated). They are only limited by their ablitly to only make short warp jumps because they don't have the navigator gene or something like the webway. But they will be crushed eventually by the Imperium.

It's pretty good, but they tried too hard just to have everything backwards. The ultramarines secession aside, everything just happened in opposite. It'd have much rather seen a more inventive history, and less 'World Eaters but in grey' or 'Death Guard but red'. I liked how Abaddon decreed that Legions should not split and if anything should reinforce, but I reckon they should have gone darker and murkier, with all sides evil, just different flavours of evil.

The only one I thought had some good thought put into it was the Ultramarines. They were almost STILL the good guys. That could have happened in either time line. Other than that, its just a "(X) legion is now going to play the part of (Y) legion" scenario. Blood Angels really didn;t even fit, as Khorne or Slaanesh were the two choices that could have worked. I do want some mark 16 power armor though. THAT stuff was cool.

I enjoyed much of it. i think the only one I actually didn't like was the White Scars, their alternative story seems to have just been thrown together, I also dislike Horus' death and Abbadons response to it. It just makes it seem like Horus was a total idiot and Abbadon had no loyalty to him and hated him all along . A big favorite of the DH seems to be the Blood Angels (of which I have created a conversion to represent) and I'll be curious to see what happens with the rest of the legions especially the Alpha Legion which is one of my favorite pre-heresy legions. I know what happens with the Iron Warriors though as he actually has finished them. My personal favorites for the DH so far are the Raven Guard for chaos and based off of the small amount given so far the Death Guard.

Commissar Agro wrote:Loved the fluff, but was shocked by the role reversal of BT and BL because I play BT and linked this to my friend who plays BL.

@ Ivan: how aren't the tau more advanced than the imperium? The tau are constantly inventing new and better weapons while the last time something was invented in the Imperium, the Emperor wasn't intombed in the Goldern Throne (ok its a bit exagerated). They are only limited by their ablitly to only make short warp jumps because they don't have the navigator gene or something like the webway. But they will be crushed eventually by the Imperium.

Let's see,Kill Team,Tau Firewarriors are equal to our guardsmen.
Railguns,Imperium has them on warships.
Cloaking device,Imperium has them(again Kill Them were they cloak five metre shuttle).
Power Armor,Imperium has better power armors than Tau(Terminator),Tau don't.
Pulse Rifles are projectile weaponry.
Progress is present in the Imperium,read Exectuion Hour and Tyranid codex.
In Kill Team,The Deathwatch marine's bolter damages tau battlesuit armor and knocks it backwards. Three more shots (perfect hits) that set off a chain reaction in the suit, causing it to "explode in a shower of shrapnel and burning body parts of the pilot."

Two battlesuits turn and fire on the Space Marine with bolt cannon, at least briefly. The combined fire is described as being able to throw a shrdded body a dozen metres, which suggests a combined momentum form the barrage of hundreds, if not thousands of kg*m/s. This gives us a great deal of indication about the durability of space marine, armour, especially against thermal damage (pulse rounds are goign to be at least equal to lasgun shots, if not somewhat stronger. This also tells us a bit about the probable mass of a space marine, since he's not bowled over by the impacts.

Space Marine power swords can easly shear through Tau battle suits.


Tau battle suit hit by heavy weapons team lascannon, man portable Guard weapon. "Fiery ball of slag" implies the suit has been melted. Which, if going by Taros campaign, is probably a Crisis suit, so it masses around 2-3 tonnes. Assuming iron composition, this probably means somewhere between 2-4 gigajoules of energy per shot, at least.

IvanTih wrote:

Commissar Agro wrote:Loved the fluff, but was shocked by the role reversal of BT and BL because I play BT and linked this to my friend who plays BL.

@ Ivan: how aren't the tau more advanced than the imperium? The tau are constantly inventing new and better weapons while the last time something was invented in the Imperium, the Emperor wasn't intombed in the Goldern Throne (ok its a bit exagerated). They are only limited by their ablitly to only make short warp jumps because they don't have the navigator gene or something like the webway. But they will be crushed eventually by the Imperium.

Let's see,Kill Team,Tau Firewarriors are equal to our guardsmen.
Railguns,Imperium has them on warships.
Cloaking device,Imperium has them(again Kill Them were they cloak five metre shuttle).
Power Armor,Imperium has better power armors than Tau(Terminator),Tau don't.
Pulse Rifles are projectile weaponry.
Progress is present in the Imperium,read Exectuion Hour and Tyranid codex.
In Kill Team,The Deathwatch marine's bolter damages tau battlesuit armor and knocks it backwards. Three more shots (perfect hits) that set off a chain reaction in the suit, causing it to "explode in a shower of shrapnel and burning body parts of the pilot."

Two battlesuits turn and fire on the Space Marine with bolt cannon, at least briefly. The combined fire is described as being able to throw a shrdded body a dozen metres, which suggests a combined momentum form the barrage of hundreds, if not thousands of kg*m/s. This gives us a great deal of indication about the durability of space marine, armour, especially against thermal damage (pulse rounds are goign to be at least equal to lasgun shots, if not somewhat stronger. This also tells us a bit about the probable mass of a space marine, since he's not bowled over by the impacts.

Space Marine power swords can easly shear through Tau battle suits.


Tau battle suit hit by heavy weapons team lascannon, man portable Guard weapon. "Fiery ball of slag" implies the suit has been melted. Which, if going by Taros campaign, is probably a Crisis suit, so it masses around 2-3 tonnes. Assuming iron composition, this probably means somewhere between 2-4 gigajoules of energy per shot, at least.

Of course a lascannon is going to melt a crisis suit, its ment for taking out heavily armed tanks.
The Imperium's rate of inventing new things is incredably slow, they mostly just re-discover old tech.
For kill team, its a little thing called plot armour, maybe the deathwatch marine had crazy arse deathcwatch super AP bullets, I don't know.
if a power sword can cut from armour I'm not suprised it can cut through a battle suit, they not as heavliy armoured as a dreadnought. they are more like flying sentiels with more guns.
A description of Tau railguns in their codex has a railgun hiting a russ, going through the otherside, just leaving a bloody mess of what was left of the tank crew. the Imperium only has them on large scale (nova cannon IIRC) while the tau have them on walkers, tanks and maybe flyers (not sure cause I don't actually play them).
they are a young race, give them time to make better armour. the cloaking fleids would be incredably old and only cloaking small ships not massive battleships while the tau are making extensive use of stealth.
actually our guardsmen are better, we have more and we have chainswords, in killteam schaffer and the inquisitor pretty much go to town killing them (not that it is described, only that kage sees the blood on the chainswords and points 2 and 2 together).
If the Imperium is so great how come they bogged down to a halt during the Damocles Crusade ( yes I know they had to fight off the nids after that so called it quits) but howcome they haven't comeback tyo kick ass (apart from plot armour preventing them kill off a faction and expand the storyline)

Tau have been in what 1 maybe 2 novels so far, we need more infomation on them really before jumping to conclusions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
anyway lets stop driving this thread of topic, Im sure if you want to start another thread to discuss tau vs IoM, (or any other faction for that matter) sure why not, but I just don't think its a good idea seeming that we don't have as much fluff on the tau as the older races (apart from necrons).

Let's see,Kill Team,Tau Firewarriors are equal to our guardsmen. <- Simply not true. A 4+ save and 30" range with a more powerful gun? Markerlights are actually kind of effective in kill teams too, rather than a hindrance you require.
Railguns,Imperium has them on warships. <- and Tau have them on tanks... and their ships
Cloaking device,Imperium has them(again Kill Them were they cloak five metre shuttle). <- Tau has them better, we're talking fluff not rules
Power Armor,Imperium has better power armors than Tau(Terminator),Tau don't. <- Technology the Imperium cannot reproduce and dare not expand upon. A battlesuit is far superior to Terminator armor, by the way. Jump packs, vehicle equivalent weaponry...
Pulse Rifles are projectile weaponry.
Progress is present in the Imperium,read Exectuion Hour and Tyranid codex. <- it is also halting and slow to develop
In Kill Team,The Deathwatch marine's bolter damages tau battlesuit armor and knocks it backwards. Three more shots (perfect hits) that set off a chain reaction in the suit, causing it to "explode in a shower of shrapnel and burning body parts of the pilot." <- ...?
Two battlesuits turn and fire on the Space Marine with bolt cannon, at least briefly. The combined fire is described as being able to throw a shrdded body a dozen metres, which suggests a combined momentum form the barrage of hundreds, if not thousands of kg*m/s. This gives us a great deal of indication about the durability of space marine, armour, especially against thermal damage (pulse rounds are goign to be at least equal to lasgun shots, if not somewhat stronger. This also tells us a bit about the probable mass of a space marine, since he's not bowled over by the impacts. <- This changes dramatically depending on the author of the piece

Space Marine power swords can easly shear through Tau battle suits. <- they go through power armor just as easily, null point


Tau battle suit hit by heavy weapons team lascannon, man portable Guard weapon. "Fiery ball of slag" implies the suit has been melted. Which, if going by Taros campaign, is probably a Crisis suit, so it masses around 2-3 tonnes. Assuming iron composition, this probably means somewhere between 2-4 gigajoules of energy per shot, at least. <- and in the Ultramarines series a Tau missile pod deployed from kilometres away penetrates a leman russ, and a burst cannon armed XV8 takes out a team of skitarii

I'm not saying the Imperium doesn't HAVE better tech, but the Tau have capability that already in some ways exceeds the Imperium. We are led to believe they will continue to develop at an extremely fast pace. Also, You can't comapre a Fire Warrior to a Space Marine just like you can't compare a Gaunt to a Space Marine. There are hardly ANY Space Marines.

IvanTih wrote:

Commissar Agro wrote:Loved the fluff, but was shocked by the role reversal of BT and BL because I play BT and linked this to my friend who plays BL.

@ Ivan: how aren't the tau more advanced than the imperium? The tau are constantly inventing new and better weapons while the last time something was invented in the Imperium, the Emperor wasn't intombed in the Goldern Throne (ok its a bit exagerated). They are only limited by their ablitly to only make short warp jumps because they don't have the navigator gene or something like the webway. But they will be crushed eventually by the Imperium.

Let's see,Kill Team,Tau Firewarriors are equal to our guardsmen.
Railguns,Imperium has them on warships.
Cloaking device,Imperium has them(again Kill Them were they cloak five metre shuttle).
Power Armor,Imperium has better power armors than Tau(Terminator),Tau don't.
Pulse Rifles are projectile weaponry.
Progress is present in the Imperium,read Exectuion Hour and Tyranid codex.
In Kill Team,The Deathwatch marine's bolter damages tau battlesuit armor and knocks it backwards. Three more shots (perfect hits) that set off a chain reaction in the suit, causing it to "explode in a shower of shrapnel and burning body parts of the pilot."

Two battlesuits turn and fire on the Space Marine with bolt cannon, at least briefly. The combined fire is described as being able to throw a shrdded body a dozen metres, which suggests a combined momentum form the barrage of hundreds, if not thousands of kg*m/s. This gives us a great deal of indication about the durability of space marine, armour, especially against thermal damage (pulse rounds are goign to be at least equal to lasgun shots, if not somewhat stronger. This also tells us a bit about the probable mass of a space marine, since he's not bowled over by the impacts.

Space Marine power swords can easly shear through Tau battle suits.


Tau battle suit hit by heavy weapons team lascannon, man portable Guard weapon. "Fiery ball of slag" implies the suit has been melted. Which, if going by Taros campaign, is probably a Crisis suit, so it masses around 2-3 tonnes. Assuming iron composition, this probably means somewhere between 2-4 gigajoules of energy per shot, at least.

You, Sir, are an Imperial Tool.

As for DH, I can't think of any other instant when Ultramarines have actually been interesting.

I liked the fluff a lot, but it raises a point; does anyone actually collect Dornian Heresy-themed armies?

As a related note, if the Imperium does use rail guns (which I haven't seen), theirs are considerably worse than Tau ones. In "Rogue Star" Lucian specifically remarks that the Tau "hypervelocity" railgun is in advance of anything similar the IOM uses.

I really liked it when I read it a while back, But seriously... Nurgle Blood Angels?
Khorne or even Slaanesh would have been much better for them

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:I really liked it when I read it a while back, But seriously... Nurgle Blood Angels?

That's exactly the point.

Them going to Khorne (for the Blood Rage) or the Slaanesh (their obsession with beauty) would be too obvious. Them falling to something so diametrically opposed to them is so much more interesting from a narrative perspective. The Blood Angels are the swift attack masters who love aesthetics... and they fall to the lethargic God of decay. Great conflict there. Not cliché at all.

I really only like the Ultras. They can finally get my respect! Jet Packs and Pulse Weapons on my BS4 T4 marines? Yes please. Poor Sicarus though, I think he's been lucified by the white scars

@Ordo Dakka
First of all,game mechanics aren't used in debates,they don't represent fluff accurately.

For the BA to Nurgle, well I cant think of any other legion going to them. Maybe Ravenguard since they love subtlety and ominous birds are usually a sign of a plague.

But the Game Mechanics are supposed to be a representation of the fluff. And looking at tons of fluff regarding the two head to head, it's quite obvious that Imperial Firepower doesn't add up with the Tau. Which is why an Imperial Guard Troop Choice is about fifty grunts with flash-lights and the tau equivalent is twelve plasma toting midgets. There is a good gap between them, just considering that the Tau have already mastered Plasma.

Vargtass wrote:But the Game Mechanics are supposed to be a representation of the fluff. And looking at tons of fluff regarding the two head to head, it's quite obvious that Imperial Firepower doesn't add up with the Tau. Which is why an Imperial Guard Troop Choice is about fifty grunts with flash-lights and the tau equivalent is twelve plasma toting midgets. There is a good gap between them, just considering that the Tau have already mastered Plasma.

If we went by fluff Marines and Necrons would have much higer stats.

Wow, what an uninspired answer. Suddenly I actually mean my earlier statement of you being an Imperial Tool.

Have fun with this thread boys and gals, I am gonna go do something constructive with my life.

Vargtass wrote:Have fun with this thread boys and gals, I am gonna go do something constructive with my life.

He said, on a forum dedicated to games with toy soldiers.


Do you practice being ironic?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vargtass wrote:Have fun with this thread boys and gals, I am gonna go do something constructive with my life.

He said, on a forum dedicated to games with toy soldiers.


Do you practice being ironic?

Not to mention we have Orkmoticons!

Actually, I did something constructive. I went to work, earned my daily bread and could finish my paper on military tactics during the Crimean war.

Ironic, isn't it? No, wait, it's not. Sorry, I'll go away now.

Guys, can we tone down the flame and turn up the discussion on the PDF file? I dont want this thread to be locked.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I liked the fluff a lot, but it raises a point; does anyone actually collect Dornian Heresy-themed armies?

Over on B&C there is at least one example each of a Blood Angels, Imperial fists/Black Legion, Emperors Children and Space Wolves army from the DH. I actually started a Raven Guard army from the DH but didn't get to finish it, plus since the DH isn't finished some people are waiting to see what happens with the other legions (If the Iron Hands are now Necron loyal etc).

And some of the changes where so radicle (namely the chaos legions that are now loyal) that to accuratly represent them they would need entirely differant rules which is why a number of us have been working on a fan made Dornian Heresy codex.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up man. I might nosy over their and take a look.

As an aside, are their any approximations on when it's going to be done?

No nothing has been said. What's funny though is that the Dornian Heresy isn't anything new, the guy who created it was actually making them for awhile now but no one ever really gave them that much attention untill B&C put it together into a E-zine and had some artists make some pieces for it. And man what great work it is, and of course Aerion-the-faithfulls version of Sanguinious was really cool. If anyone hasen't seen his mini masterpieces of the primarchs you should look them up on Deviantart. He just made Corax, I think he only has Guilliman and Lorgar left although Guilliman will be last.

Apologies if this has been posted before, but for those interested in fielding Dornian Heresy Marines, this might be of value:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MK-IX-PALADIN-ARMOUR-fit-and-GW-Space-Marines-/250716437278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fdd3b1e

Valete,

JohnS

cygnnus wrote:Apologies if this has been posted before, but for those interested in fielding Dornian Heresy Marines, this might be of value:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MK-IX-PALADIN-ARMOUR-fit-and-GW-Space-Marines-/250716437278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fdd3b1e

Valete,

JohnS

Looks prety decent. Whats with the storm trooper heads though lol? I am sad they arent the SM helmets from the art

That was my exact thought. They're stormtrooper heads.

The armour itself is impressive though. Bit pricey though.