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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

From PerfectYourEnglish.com
"Each and every

Each is used to talk about two or more things. Every is used to talk about three or more things. They are both used with singular nouns, with the following exception:
If subject is preceded with Each/Every, the verb takes the plural form.
If Each/Every is preceded with subject, the verb takes the singular form."

Thats from the website that I used to teach myself English. I'm not a native speaker myself; English is a Second Language for me and I live in America, where apparently the language has been pretty bastardized.
But this little snippet on the usage of each and every, set at about 8th grade grammar here in the states (I know the systems in the UK and her ex-protectorate countries are on a different scale) should clarify the matter.

It makes abundantly clear that in the case of the mycetic spore, where the word 'Each' precedes the subject "Shooting phase" that the compound verb "Automatically Shoots" is going to be realized in the plural. Not the singular.

Also not to be an expletive, but isn't English a Germanic based language, meaning that it was written somewhere on mainland Europe, closer to my native Spain?

Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Um, it's my understanding that the player's who's turn it is, during their shooting phase, goes through and activates each unit she wants to have shoot.

Even if you have the ability to shoot during your opponents turn, wouldn't they just not activate your squad?

6000pts

DS:80S++G++M-B-I+Pw40k98-D++A++/areWD-R+T(D)DM+

What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

@Grakmar You always control your units unless theres a rule saying otherwise.

@Forkbanger Just looked it up. I thought "ooh man mephiston is now a real bad mofo!" but sadly, it says each player turn, not shooting phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/15 15:29:25


Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Doomthumbs wrote:From PerfectYourEnglish.com
"Each and every

Each is used to talk about two or more things. Every is used to talk about three or more things. They are both used with singular nouns, with the following exception:
If subject is preceded with Each/Every, the verb takes the plural form.
If Each/Every is preceded with subject, the verb takes the singular form."

Thats from the website that I used to teach myself English. I'm not a native speaker myself; English is a Second Language for me and I live in America, where apparently the language has been pretty bastardized.
But this little snippet on the usage of each and every, set at about 8th grade grammar here in the states (I know the systems in the UK and her ex-protectorate countries are on a different scale) should clarify the matter.

It makes abundantly clear that in the case of the mycetic spore, where the word 'Each' precedes the subject "Shooting phase" that the compound verb "Automatically Shoots" is going to be realized in the plural. Not the singular.

Also not to be an expletive, but isn't English a Germanic based language, meaning that it was written somewhere on mainland Europe, closer to my native Spain?


But, that doesn't mean they have any difference in terms of meaning. It's just a grammar discussion of which to use in what circumstance. This does point out that GW is using the wrong word every time they use the word "each", as I assume they want to have more than 2 shooting phases over the course of a game

And, English has evolved from a dozen different sources. But, I believe it has more in common with Germanic languages than Romance ones.

6000pts

DS:80S++G++M-B-I+Pw40k98-D++A++/areWD-R+T(D)DM+

What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

Grakmar, I said it was Germanic before you did. And your other statement still supports me. My whole argument is that GW might have slipped on this one. Your admitting their being fallible is ... not good arguing.

Gwar! wrote:It's really simple. It doesn't say you can shoot in the opponents turn, so you can't. Just because it says Phase is not enough. By that logic, Monstrous Creatures can fire in the enemies turn too (they have the same wording in the BRB).


I hope Gwar! wont mind me posting a segment from a PM he sent me, but he raises a good point.

but the brb says "...can fire two of their weapons once per shooting phase." (pg 51 BRB, Shooting)

Its not the same. never says each, specifies once per phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for consistency and so everyone's argument gets addressed, the text for the Blood Angel Librarian concern reads "When Mephiston overcame the Red Thirst, he released his full psychic potential. As such, Mephiston has all three Blood Angels Psychic Powers (see below) and can use each one of them and his Force Weapon once each player turn, rather than being limited as are other Librarians. He may not use the same power
more than once per turn." (Pg 7 BA Codex, Lord of Death)

Thats pretty damning to that argument, as it never even mentions shooting phase. Just turn.
Edit: Oh! it even says 'each' in there! In reference to him being able to do more stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SaintHazard wrote:A counter-example would be psychic powers, which have specific permission to be used in both your and your opponent's turns.


Yeah, thought I forgot about you, huh? Not a chance, baby. Not a chance.
From the right and glorious BRB tome, a living document enshrined in honour, Page fifty, second paragraph first sentence. "Psykers can use one psychic power per player TURN."
And I used caps... so thats me spent for now.


( I am now officially trying to goad reactions from people, but please let us keep it on topic. Use that anger though... let it flow.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/10/15 15:58:58


Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Doomthumbs wrote:Grakmar, I said it was Germanic before you did. And your other statement still supports me. My whole argument is that GW might have slipped on this one. Your admitting their being fallible is ... not good arguing.


Yeah, sorry, I was agreeing, not arguing, with you about the Germanic origins.

But, as for each vs every, I don't think there's a difference in meaning between the two terms. It's just that every should be used if there's 3 or more of something, and each should be used if there's exactly 2. There are more than 2 shooting phases, more than 2 turns, more than 2 everything, so "each" is a grammatical error, but there is no difference in meaning.

6000pts

DS:80S++G++M-B-I+Pw40k98-D++A++/areWD-R+T(D)DM+

What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

Grakmar wrote:
Yeah, sorry, I was agreeing, not arguing, with you about the Germanic origins.

But, as for each vs every, I don't think there's a difference in meaning between the two terms. It's just that every should be used if there's 3 or more of something, and each should be used if there's exactly 2. There are more than 2 shooting phases, more than 2 turns, more than 2 everything, so "each" is a grammatical error, but there is no difference in meaning.


Exactly, but still not quite. The words are synonyms yes, but with very nuanced differences. In modern language they may be interchanged freely, but if you're gonna be a rooster about it, there ARE differences.
Each is used when theres exactly two of something? Like shooting phases in a game turn? The Doom and Ymgarl usage of 'Every" would be backed by your statements as well. Since there is going to (hopefully) be more than 3 turns.
Though I appreciate your input, I doubt that I'm wrong on this. Got an Associate Degree in English before I realized that qualified me as a barrista. Apparently its still more impressive and respectable to get a Mechanical Engineering degree than it is for a Spanish person to pick up English (Which is hard. Not like Mandarin hard, but yeah. Its hard.)

Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof





...all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher now...

Wah wah wahwah wah wah...

Los Tyranidos es muy bueno y feo y loco.


I do have to say that the grammar aside: Since the Tyranids codex already has an entry that describes a Tyranid unit able to affect/act during an opponents turn, and not even a voluntary action, just a condition, and at no other time does any codex any where list a "voluntary" action you might preform during an opponents turn, it is fairly obvious that the Mycetic spore cannot do anything during your opponents turn... especially since the "Limited Sentience" would not allow it to take extra turn... since "Limited" would do just that... "Limit" the actions you can take... not increase them.

...apart from the minutia of "Each" vs. "every" you can only take actions during YOUR turn... and because I said so

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/16 04:58:24


--- "Oi! I'm Boss Big'un, an' I ap'roov'd dis 'ere message!" ---

Gorskar.da.Lost : "Need more badass minis of unreasonable cavalry" 
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

The spod shooting is not "voluntary" however. It must occur, and be targeted at the neared enemy unit.

Just saying.

editing to add

I have never read nor seen played the rules as posited, but without context it seems viable.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2010/10/16 05:27:21


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

BossBig'un wrote:...all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher now...

Wah wah wahwah wah wah...

Los Tyranidos es muy bueno y feo y loco.

I do have to say that the grammar aside: Since the Tyranids codex already has an entry that describes a Tyranid unit able to affect/act during an opponents turn, and not even a voluntary action, just a condition, and at no other time does any codex any where list a "voluntary" action you might preform during an opponents turn, it is fairly obvious that the Mycetic spore cannot do anything during your opponents turn... especially since the "Limited Sentience" would not allow it to take extra turn... since "Limited" would do just that... "Limit" the actions you can take... not increase them.

...apart from the minutia of "Each" vs. "every" you can only take actions during YOUR turn... and because I said so


Ok, so here we go. Yeah, no other codex anywhere lists anything like that. Except the Tyranid Codex, which has examples throughout. Ymgarl genestealers change every assault phase. Spore mine clusters will detonate if you move near them during your turn. (Who else has that?). I would say the 'Limited" applies to "sentience" and not phase limitations. It doesnt even know its your phase, it just shoots the closest thing.

Grammar aside nothing. The verbage is the very core of the issue here, because it is different from every other codex out there. Why does it have to be a bug, not a feature? If the Tyranid Codex contains the only phrasing that would even technically allow it to do it, then I'd say that the Tyranids are the only one that CAN do this.
Also, "Los Tyranidos es muy bueno y feo y loco." Should actually be : "Los Tyranidos SON muy buenoS, feo y loco tambien." Since the original article is plural, you conjugate 'Estar" differently for the third person plural. Its the English equivalent of saying 'is' instead of 'are'. The rest of it I just cleaned up so that I wouldn't have to pluralize ugly or crazy.
And because you said so? The GW guy at the store you and I played at said so. Only 'so' was actually "yes, he can do that by my reading".

I think that wraps up your argument in a nice neat little package if I "say so" myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And besides, is a spore shooting in your phase really that big of an issue? Ballistic skill 2 on a giant immobile pod with 2 guns on it. Suppose I spent the requisite points to fit it with a venom cannon? Still only 2 of the ripper tentacles will hit on average (on a 5+ with 6 attacks), and the venom cannon's small blast will scatter on average 5 inches.

So? Thats a benefit, yes, but a marginal one. And potentially even a risk. Tyranids are an army whose answer to pretty much anything is 'get as close as you can to the food, and oh yeah if you have a gun smoke em if you got em'. That blast is maybe going to hit me. Its actually pretty likely with a 5 inch drift.. if I'm catching any of your models on the outside of the cluster I fired at, I'm in the zone where the leading edge of my genestealers could be blown away with no questions asked while space marines make 3+ saves.
Or whatever else save your army has. I wont be getting any.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To restate something I said earlier but is a point worth making again, Big Rule Book, page 9, GAME TURNS AND PLAYER TURNS. "In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn, each one divided into Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases ".
The upper right hand paragraph on page 9 further states: "Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn' ".

The rule here in no way says turn. Everything I've looked up that even kinda mentions a shooting phase rule specifies turn. Bladestorm, psychers, and monsterous creatures all say turn as part of the rule. This limits them to player turns.
The spore says phase. And since there are no restrictions on shooting during my opponents phase, and even a provision for turn sequence exceptions, I see no reason why it can't shoot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/16 17:18:12


Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof





Congrats.... you just created a new game.

Grammarhammer...

The game where no one wins.

(Semi-colon, frowny face.)

--- "Oi! I'm Boss Big'un, an' I ap'roov'd dis 'ere message!" ---

Gorskar.da.Lost : "Need more badass minis of unreasonable cavalry" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







*cough* Obliterators firing a different weapon each Shooting phase. *cough*

*cough* Lash of Submission is used in the Shooting phase and psykers can use one psychic power each player turn. *cough*

The twin Lash prince army with three units of Obliterators welcomes this lovely and incorrect interpretation of the rules which the original poster is proposing.

   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

solkan wrote:*cough* Obliterators firing a different weapon each Shooting phase. *cough*

*cough* Lash of Submission is used in the Shooting phase and psykers can use one psychic power each player turn. *cough*

The twin Lash prince army with three units of Obliterators welcomes this lovely and incorrect interpretation of the rules which the original poster is proposing.



Ok first off, would you like a lozenge? Better? Now, you mention that psykers can use one psychic power per player turn- its in your quote. Since that rule applies to all of the powers, and rules over when they can be used, I would say that there is a rule to govern this already in place. Sgt. Tellion is not unique, but there is text that says only one scout squad may upgrade to have him. Same kinda deal here. The POWER says per shooting phase, but the psyker is limited to using powers during his turn by another rule.

Obliterators though... wow, you almost got me on that one.
But, they are limited too, though less directly. Oblits are slow and purposeful, which makes them relentless. Rules for relentless states (BRB, pg 76. Relentless) "Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the same TURN that they fire them."

See the difference? They have other special dispensations for how and when they may shoot, based on a player turn. So the 'phase' that they may shoot in is later clarified as just your phase, by the definition of a player turn.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







First off, you have the Psycher business backwards. A psyker is allowed to make one (or more, depending on the codex) psychic test per player turn. That's one in the controlling player's turn and once in the opponent's player turn, because they're both "player turns". So whether or not the Lash using sorcerer can use the power comes down to whether or not a power which can be used "in the shooting phase instead of another ranged weapon." The "instead of another ranged weapon" clause doesn't stop anything because things without weapons can still run instead of shooting.

As for the Obliterators, "Obliterators may fire one weapon from those available in each Shooting phase, and the entire squad must choose the same weapon. The weapons available are: ..." The codex then proceeds to list off various energy based weapons. That's Codex: Chaos Space Marines, page 35.

I would also like to point out the wording used for the previous Tyranid codex, which stated that Tyranid monstrous creatures could fire an extra weapon each shooting phase, but I've misplaced my copy at the moment. If you were to do a search and dig up the old "Can IG issue orders during their opponent's turn" threads, I think the quotes were used there, so I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers who weren't around then.

Of course, there's a much simpler reason why the Mycetic Spore can't fire during its opponent's turn: There is no rule specifying when during the opponent's turn the firing takes place, and the only time specified when its shooting could take place is during its controlling player's turn.
   
Made in se
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Just a question Doomthumbs.
You mentioned that the Oblits are limited due to relentless. (atleast that's how I understand it...) Wouldn't the same go for the Spod seeing as it's a MC?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/17 08:19:58


If I use -><- I'm not mocking you, it's a reflex from using the " silly" icon on every other forum.
However, if I use this -><- I might just mock you.
Rats with hats: 3k
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Karash (at the home page of SATW) on the subject of America's fear of nudity:

which gets even weirder, seeing how you americans tend to use [the F-word] more often in various meanings than a smurf would use "smurf".


Nearly a quote except the censorship.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Doomthumbs wrote:
SaintHazard wrote:A counter-example would be psychic powers, which have specific permission to be used in both your and your opponent's turns.


Yeah, thought I forgot about you, huh? Not a chance, baby. Not a chance.
From the right and glorious BRB tome, a living document enshrined in honour, Page fifty, second paragraph first sentence. "Psykers can use one psychic power per player TURN."
And I used caps... so thats me spent for now.


( I am now officially trying to goad reactions from people, but please let us keep it on topic. Use that anger though... let it flow.

Oh, really? So psykers using force weapons in their opponent's assault phase... that's not a psychic power?

Oh wait, it specifically says it is.

Nice try.

DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

@ solkan. No. that it mentions the wording "Player turn" is my whole argument. Has been from the start. Once per player turn is very specifically detailed as to what that means in the BRB, and I've quoted that here.
I've already addressed the IG orders here as well, as GWAR! was the first to mention them in the second post of the thread.


@Sainthazard. But wait, theres more to that. Please back up what you're saying as per rules?
Pg 50 BRB Force Weapons "The normal rules for using psychic powers apply( remember that a psyker can only use one power per turn." Still says turn, and the force weapon is listed as a special exception to the usual rule. It is an additional power granted to the psyker once per player turn. So you can only do it one time in addition to your normal power in YOUR turn, and you may use the force weapon if still locked in combat on your opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still @ solkan
As to the argument that there is no ule saying when in the shooting phase something occurs? All shooting is declared and then the shooting takes place, correct? So its not spelled out when it would be able to, but wouldnt I just declare it normally? BRB pg 9 states it might even be convenient for me to interrupt my opponent. it would be Extremely convenient at any time.

I looked through my 4E Tyranid codex, can't find what you mentioned either. Maybe you're thinking of the MC unit type entry in the BRB.

And for the Oblits to satisfy Oscarius' argument, which so far has been the most coherant and well put.
The relentless rule specifies rapid fire or heavy weapons.
The spore just has assault weapons.
So its still extemely vague.

I'd like to point out that if anyone did this or similar to me, it would be punished, and then I would never play with them again. But this is conjecture for tournament play, where maybe you need a gun under your pillow to deal with someone who isn't a superbestfriend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/17 16:20:56


Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Doomthumbs wrote:
Still @ solkan
As to the argument that there is no ule saying when in the shooting phase something occurs? All shooting is declared and then the shooting takes place, correct? So its not spelled out when it would be able to, but wouldnt I just declare it normally? BRB pg 9 states it might even be convenient for me to interrupt my opponent. it would be Extremely convenient at any time.


"All shooting is declared and then the shooting takes place"? Are you still playing 4th edition shooting phase rules or something?

The second paragraph of the first column, and the first paragraph of the second column, on page 15, indicate that the shooting occurs when the player whose turn it is selects the unit to fire, and ends when that player is done. And then there's the nice six step sequence that that page specifies in the box in the lower left.

Please point out when in the shooting phase sequence on page 15 that the Tyranid player is allowed to interrupt the opposing player to shoot. That is the issue that I raised: when during the opponent's shooting phase is this shooting permitted, if it is permitted.

P.S. The Obliterators have assault weapons in their list of weapons. Psychic shooting powers are classified as assault weapons if the power doesn't specify otherwise.

The spore pod is relentless. The obliterators are relentless. The Lash Prince is relentless.
The spore pod has assault weapons. The obliterators have assault weapons. The Lash Prince has an assault weapon (or better).
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo

solkan wrote:
The second paragraph of the first column, and the first paragraph of the second column, on page 15.

solkan wrote:
Please point out when in the shooting phase sequence on page 15 that the Tyranid player is allowed to interrupt the opposing player to shoot. That is the issue that I raised: when during the opponent's shooting phase is this shooting permitted, if it is permitted.

P.S. The Obliterators have assault weapons in their list of weapons. Psychic shooting powers are classified as assault weapons if the power doesn't specify otherwise.

The spore pod is relentless. The obliterators are relentless. The Lash Prince is relentless.
The spore pod has assault weapons. The obliterators have assault weapons. The Lash Prince has an assault weapon (or better).


I got your post man, and ran straight to my rulebook to get the quote. You must have forgot or something.

From the second paragraph of the first column on page 15 of the big rule book.. "Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later."

Wait a minute... thats MY point. Hold on, lets start over from the first non bold text paragraph on the page. For understanding. "In a Warhammer 40k battle we split up the firing so that each player's force fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn." (page 15 BRB)
So since the TURN SEQUENCE EXCEPTIONS is on page 9 of the BRB says "There are times when a player is allowed to preform actions during their opponents turn." Doesn't it seem like I could do that? Does to me. And if you'd like, since it says I get to fire each phase not turn, I'll just take the extra shots during my turn.

As for obliterators with assault weapons, you must not be reading the same page 81 of the chaos codex I have. No need for a quote, its the Wasrgear section. But the first section is Heavy Weapons, and every option the Oblits have for guns is in that list. Lascannon, multimelta, ... that list is long and boring to me. Lets just skip to the part on Page 100 of the chaos codex, the army list for the Obliterator Cult you want to shoot with. That will have a list of the weapons they can fire.
Pg100 Chaos Codex, Obliterator Cult, Wargear, Obliterator weapons. "One per TURN from..."

Oh, thats wrong for sure then. Just plain obvious wrong. As for the prince, why is he covered under the obliterator rules? The ones I just disproved?

Not to offend, but please do provide ALL the facts, instead of the ones that work just for you. Or just made up fictitious stuff, like Obliterators having assault weapons. They have heavy weapons, with the exception of twin linked plasma gun, i'll give you that. But thats rapid fire. Did you actually read this stuff?

Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
Team NSFW: Making wargamers deeply uncomfortable since 2011.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Meltas are Assault. As is the twin linked flamer. Try again with "no assault weapons"

No, you may not fire in your opponents turn without being explicitly told you can.

Turn == player turn unless told otherwise. Your argument for the Spod firing in the opponents turn applies equally to so many other weapons that you are arguing against its just silly.

Psychic powers can be used in alternate player turns unless they are PSA. So force weapons can be used *each* player turn...and they are NOT in addition to your normal allowance of powers at all, you are simply wrong ont hat.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Ex nihilo


My argument is that the spore shoots every PHASE not turn.
multi meltas are heavy 1

Actually twin linked heeavy flamers ARE assault weapons. Too bad it states under oblits they only get one per TURN.

The force weapon entry clearly says that it is in addition to their other psyker powers, as I quoted from the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please guys. I know its a lot to read and that you don't want to, but please read all of the thread. Several of these points are points I'm just rehashing over and over again.
My statement stands that the spore is the only one without reference to a player turn anywhere. it just says each shooting phase. Not my phase, just each phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you may not fire in your opponents turn without being explicitly told you can. .


And I've heard this a few times now. But I havn't seen a quote from any rule book. Where does it say that, exactly?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/18 00:12:55


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Doomthumbs wrote:
My argument is that the spore shoots every PHASE not turn.
multi meltas are heavy 1

Actually twin linked heeavy flamers ARE assault weapons. Too bad it states under oblits they only get one per TURN.


Unfortunately, the wording in my copy of the Chaos Space Marine codex disagrees with your assertion, and says "in each Shooting phase" and does not use the word 'turn' or the words 'player turn'.

The Spore Pod is a model with relentless and an assault weapon that can fire it's weapon in each Shooting phase, and here we have the Obliterator which is another model with relentless and an assault weapon and a rule that says that it can fire a weapon in each Shooting phase.

So, again, what makes you think that the Spore Pod has a unique permission to fire during the opponent's turn?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/18 01:34:07


 
   
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Ex nihilo

solkan wrote:So, again, what makes you think that the Spore Pod has a unique permission to fire during the opponent's turn?

Page 35 right? Chaos codex. Thats the page that has all the Obliterator fluff and a rundown of its statline and its weapon list. And yeah, it says once per phase.
But page 100 of your codex, the army list entry for Obliterators (Which is universally accepted as more important than the fluff page rules) says under the second bullet point in wargear "one per turn from lascannon..."
Sorry. And yes, thats what it says in every Chaos Codex.

What makes me think the Spore pod has unique permission, again, is that it is unique in the fact that nowhere in the rules for Limited Sentience does it say anything about a player turn. It just says that it fires each shooting phase at the closest target. Since its the ONLY rule that doesn't have any mention of turn, it has unique permission to fire during my opponents turn.

Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
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There's a line of reasoning which concludes that since a certain Space Wolf unit must assault if they're in range, that they can can perform otherwise impossible assault moves because their rule says they have to. Things like assaulting over impossible terrain, or assaulting after getting out of drop pods.

Among your problems is that you're reading the "... automatically shoots ..." line as granting permission to do the impossible.

If the Mycetic Spore Pod's the only model on the table, does it get to shoot at an enemy unit out of line of sight?
If the Mycetic Spore Pod's on the table, and all of the enemy units are in reserve, can it shoot them?
Can the Mycetic Spore Pod shoot at an enemy unit in the enemy unit's turn?

The answer to all of those questions is, "No". No, the Spore Pod can't shoot at something it can't see. No, the Spore Pod can't shoot at something in reserve. No, the Spore Pod can't shoot in the enemy unit's turn because the opposing player will never select it as a friendly unit to fire.

Let me go into more detail on that last one. The Mycetic Spore Pod rule simply states that the Mycetic Spore Pod automatically fires each turn. Nowhere in that rule does it specify when that firing occurs, so it must therefore follow the natural timing rules for that action. And the rules for shooting on page 15 says that all of a player's shooting happens in their Shooting phase, in the order that they select their units to fire, and ends as soon as they're done selecting iterating through steps 1 through 6.

You quote page 9 as giving permission to act during the opposing player's turn when "convenient". In order for the Mycetic Spore Pod shooting to qualify as an "event" it would need to have a clear trigger condition, like the Space Marine scout booby traps have. The Tyranid codex does not specify a condition to cause the Mycetic Spore pod to fire, so that shooting doesn't happen.

Therefore, it goes back to the fact that the Mycetic Spore Pod automatically shoots at nearest enemy unit when it is selected to fire during it's controlling player's turn, and will never fire during the opponent's turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, see the main rulebook on 'one per turn' meaning 'once per player turn', and therefore indicating things which are done twice per game turn. It's on page 9 of the rules. So combining the definition on page 9 of the rulebook, and the statement on page 100 of the codex, Obliterators can change their weapons once per player turn--once in their controlling player's turn, and once in their opponent's player turn, because both are 'player turns'--if the need arises.

See also page 50, "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." That gives psyker models the permission to make psychic power tests to use their force weapons during the enemy's close combat phase because there is a clear trigger--the psyker inflicting a wound in close combat.

You might be interested in comparing the wording of these to the wording on Warp Time, which specifies that it's a power that can be used "at the start of any player's turn." This is another example of a rule which provides a specific condition when it applies, and can be used during the opponent's turn.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/18 05:33:22


 
   
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Doomthumbs - so you are ignoring the twin linked Melta gun then, which is assault 1?

Oh, and it is twin linked FLAMER, not heavy flamer.

And you misunderstand: while the force weapon *power* is an additional *power*, you may still only use one power per *turn* (see BRB) - so if you use a psychic power in your shooting phase you CANNOT use a force weapon in your assault phase unless you are able to *use 2 powers* - but you CAN use it in your opponents phase because, as you are told, turn == player turn unless specific otherwise.

Sorry, unles the rule specifically states you can, you can not do something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/18 07:22:24


 
   
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N Nevada

Hey Doom, gotta say, I love your arguments so far, but there is one you've skipped.

you've listed reasons for other things to be disallowed their respective abilities, eg. the oblits are "Slow and Purposeful"

Well the Spod is a MC. Therefore the rule for monstrous creature, specifically saying "turn" as you've said, denies them shooting in the opposing players turn.


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Ok forget I ever said anything about relentless or slow and purposeful. Those arguements are pretty weak, and the one I made about oblits specifically being unable because it says one per turn in the army list also cancels out whether or not oblits have a peice or two of non heavy wargear.
If they only get one per TURN, I don't CARE if its assault or anything anymore. I've moved on. I'm no longer convinced that the slow and purposeful or relentless rule even applies.
@ Hallowed, thanks for adding something new. The spore is a MC, yes. But the Codexes always take higher standing than BRB rules. Therefore the entry in the Tyranid Codex on page 54 overrules that.

@ Nosferatu, It says turn, dude. Once per player turn, one additional psycic power. Spore isnt psychic, and I no longer care about this argument because it says turn.

@Solkan. "if the Mycetic Spore Pod's the only model on the table, does it get to shoot at an enemy unit out of line of sight?
If the Mycetic Spore Pod's on the table, and all of the enemy units are in reserve, can it shoot them?
Can the Mycetic Spore Pod shoot at an enemy unit in the enemy unit's turn?"

Thats... what? Can the spore shoot if I didnt include it in my army list? No. Damn, thats another no answer to a question I didnt ask because it was insane.
Obviously The spore can't shoot if it doesnt have LOS or there is nothing for it to shoot at. Or if I left it at home.
But it does HAVE to shoot every phase. Thats its permission. I dont get to activate it. Its not a choice for me. It just shoots the closest thing each phase. Still says turn nowhere in the rule like how you're implying. It just doesnt.
The clear trigger condition is that it HAS to shoot IF IT CAN. During every PHASE not turn.
You're misreading page 9. You all are. It says CLEARLY every time it says turn it means player turn. And in a player turn there is only one shooting phase.
Do I need to bold caps this?
THE SPORE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NOT WILL IT EVER SAY TURN. NO QUOTED RULES ABOUT TURNS APPLY TO IT.

There are NO rules that have been quoted to me about the spore being disallowed to shoot. Spore says each phase, there are two shooting phases per game turn.

Again @ solkan. Space wolf assault through impassable terrain is ridiculous for the same reason your three listed things are. I cant shoot at something that isnt there, and space wolves have to go around impassable terrain just like everyone else. Thats why its impassible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/18 15:17:55


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As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
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For timing issues--which are invented, see below--the standard is to allow the player whose turn it is to choose the order.

For the relation to IG orders. . .that actually falls in line with Doomthumbs arguement. It is worded the same, and GW thought that required an FAQ to clarify. Yet the same wording does not get an FAQ answer this time? Shady. At best.

And yes, page 9 does in fact clarify that the turn mentioned is player turn. It even goes so far as to allow you to interupt your opponent's turn to take actions (The first point I mentioned). It gets a bit odd when it does not follow up clarifying that "phase" gets the same treatment.

Do I think it was meant to fire twice as often?
Not really, but the more I think about it the less it matters.
It reads that way.

I would not play it that way, nor suggest it be done so. But if my opponent thinkgs he should, I would laugh a bit and allow it.

And then have mine shoot again too.

I am probably missing something here, but I am looking for the page that actually states it.

/shrug

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/18 17:55:21


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@Kirsanth. Thanks for the hesitant support, but I think you're only halfway there.
But the wording for the IG orders is not the same. At all. It says turn not Shooting phase. Thats why theres a FAQ covering it. Same as the FAQs for the other codices similarly cover things like bladestorm, and I actually found a FAQ for Oblits too. The 5E Rulebook came out AFTER these codices, right? So Page 9 takes extra special care to spell out that usage of the word TURN in any context means just that players turn.
The Tyranid Codex came out AFTER the 5E Rulebook, correct? So if they went to the trouble to have a whole page dedicated to spelling it out on page 9 of the Rulebook, isn't the fact that the wording is absent in the Tyranid Codex somewhat of a huge oversight if not express permission for the pod to Shoot in every phase? Why wasn't this mentioned in any Tyranid FAQ?

In a tournament situation, if your opponent forgot to do something, made an oversight that worked to your advantage, could any of you claim that you wouldn't call them on the oversight? Unless you're just... you know, a really nice dude. A sportsman. A gentlemen. A non trophy cup holder. Of course you would. Halfway in to your shooting phase, the guy across the table says "Oh I forgot to assault with my unit of [fill in the blank]". What do you do?
You give him the biggest middle finger you can possibly give him. You stick it like way in the air. Thats what you do. Because its a tournament situation and thats the RAW. He made an oversight, plain and simple.
Not including wording that says turn, and making the spore forced to shoot every phase, is a huge oversight if not express permission to shoot during my opponents phase as well.

Its the same one you'd get if you tried to shoot your units outside your TURN, if by "And then have mine shoot again too." you're talking about anything other than your Tyranid Mycetic Spore tm. Thats not what anyone else's rules read as. Everything else says turn.

Tyranids attract more tang than an astronaut convention.
Success is a little more than I already have. Every day, Forever. Until you have nothing.
As Galactic ruler, I promise to be tough but fair. But tough.
"Dangerous terrain where you just die upon rolling a 1 is for sissies. Parts of the board you wont even move your models into because you're physically afraid of being stung by wasps? Welcome to a Tyranid invasion, cue danger music. "
Check out my NSFW Tyranids! Your eyes will burn for days.
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Actually that was in 4th ed as well. Its fairly standard that turn = player turn.

You also said the psyker got to use the force weapon in addition to using another power, which is strictly and 100% wrong. You may not care about hte answer, but correcting a mistake is still worthwhile.
   
 
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