Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pg 54 of the codex under Limited Sentience it says the spore shoots at the closest target in EACH shooting phase.
So... my opponent has one of these shooting phase things as well...
Whats up with that?

Doomthumbs wrote:Pg 54 of the codex under Limited Sentience it says the spore shoots at the closest target in EACH shooting phase.
So... my opponent has one of these shooting phase things as well...
Whats up with that?

In short, No.

In Long, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

In extra long, look up the threads about Imperial Guard orders. Same Wording, same conclusion (see points 1 and 2).

Doomthumbs wrote:Pg 54 of the codex under Limited Sentience it says the spore shoots at the closest target in EACH shooting phase.
So... my opponent has one of these shooting phase things as well...
Whats up with that?

I see what you're saying but as Gwar! says no, it's in each of your own shooting phases. It's not like the Doom of Malan'tai, which is every.

One thing I am trying to work out though is do the Ripper Tentacles ignore armour saves as it's treated as a Monstrous Creature?

I might be being to literal here but if the tentacles are part of the Spore, like it's arms, then I would've thought this was the case.

This is how we've been playing it, seems to make sense.

Pilau Rice wrote:
One thing I am trying to work out though is do the Ripper Tentacles ignore armour saves as it's treated as a Monstrous Creature?

I might be being to literal here but if the tentacles are part of the Spore, like it's arms, then I would've thought this was the case.

This is how we've been playing it, seems to make sense.

No, they wouldn't ignore armor as it is a shooting attack, not a close combat attack and MCs only ignore armor in close combat.

Pilau Rice wrote:I see what you're saying but as Gwar! says no, it's in each of your own shooting phases. It's not like the Doom of Malan'tai, which is every.

One thing I am trying to work out though is do the Ripper Tentacles ignore armour saves as it's treated as a Monstrous Creature?

I might be being to literal here but if the tentacles are part of the Spore, like it's arms, then I would've thought this was the case.

This is how we've been playing it, seems to make sense.

You seem to have missed the part where Ripper Tentacles are a shooting attack.

Yeah, we talked about that as well.

Looks like we were being to literal after all.

Ok, back with some cold hard irrefutable facts.
First off, I read the threads covering the IG Shooting during the opponents turn, and I am still unconvinced that the issue is the same. To Gwar! specifically, I respect your rulings in those threads and hope not to offend by refuting your word (which is law) in this one.

My main point will be that the IG debate is over wording that uses the wording "each turn", and the Tyranids are sporting the language "each shooting phase".

From my IG Codex, page 29, second paragraph. " A number of models in the IG army have the ability to issue on or more orders each TURN." The caps are mine but they really help my point.
And on Page 54 of my Tyranid Codex, "The Mycetic Spore automatically shoots the closest enemy unit in each SHOOTING PHASE it is engaged in close combat." Again, caps added for emphasis.

And from the Big Rule Book, page 9, GAME TURNS AND PLAYER TURNS. "In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn, each one divided into Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases ".
The upper right hand paragraph on page 9 further states: "Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn' ".

So since the spore is automatically shooting during each shooting PHASE, instead of each player TURN, isn't this issue a completely different pile of shark excrement?
Not trying to be a "donkey-cave" or "douche-nozzle" or anything else on this one just pondering this as a RAW. The language in the codices (Codices is the correct pluralization of Codex. Odd that GW opts out of printing 'dices'?) is wholly different. The rulebook clearly smacks down the IG issue but actually supports the Tyranids.

just sayin'



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only time a spore is going to get any kind of negated armor save is IF it manages to survive an assault, it gets 3 S6 attacks at I1. Those 3 attacks, which sometimes miraculously occur if the spore lives through getting charged by anything, would negate armor saves as the spore is a MC.

Just my two cents: If you refer to the doom of Malantai's entry, it makes clear that... it says (paraphrasing)

that the Doom's life leech power works during each shooting phase and in the wording spells out "Even during your opponents"

I think if the spore could shoot during your opponents shooting phase, it would have been spelled out like it was in the Doom's entry?

The non paraphrased text for the doom reads "At the beginning of each Shooting phase, including the foe's". (Pg 58 Tyranid Codex, Spirit Leech)
I agree that there is additional clarification there but the first part of the sentence, before the comma which separates important elements of a sentence, still reads 'At the beginning of every shooting phase, ... '.

I would argue that this even further supports my thesis.

The Doom is different only in that it specifies that the effect happens at the beginning of the shooting phase. I would argue that a spore with Initiative 1 would go last in the shooting order of each Shooting phase.

It still says phase.

Firstly, what does initiative have to do with shooting?

Secondly, there is only permission for shooting during your own turn. DoM has to specify "including the foe's" in order to grant permission to shoot in a phase where you would not normally be able to do so.

This is just the teleport homer argument.

Scott-S6 wrote:Firstly, what does initiative have to do with shooting?

Secondly, there is only permission for shooting during your own turn. DoM has to specify "including the foe's" in order to grant permission to shoot in a phase where you would not normally be able to do so.

This is just the teleport homer argument.

Initiative has nothing to do with shooting. It was only brought up as a conjecture as to when in the opponents shooting phase the spore would get to shoot? At the start? At the same time as all of the opponents shooting?


Teleport homer argument? As far as I could find, that argument is whether or not your beacon could bring in your opponents units. It can't in the same way Tyranids can't claim enemy synapse. That applies here not at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doom also doesn't HAVE to specify, does he? That it does is just gravy on top of the text that reads during each shooting phase.
Page 9 of the BRB also has provisions for my doing stuff during my opponents phases. Bottom right paragraph under Turn Sequence Exceptions.

Doomthumbs wrote:Initiative has nothing to do with shooting. It was only brought up as a conjecture as to when in the opponents shooting phase the spore would get to shoot? At the start? At the same time as all of the opponents shooting?


Teleport homer argument? As far as I could find, that argument is whether or not your beacon could bring in your opponents units. It can't in the same way Tyranids can't claim enemy synapse. That applies here not at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doom also doesn't HAVE to specify, does he? That it does is just gravy on top of the text that reads during each shooting phase.
Page 9 of the BRB also has provisions for my doing stuff during my opponents phases. Bottom right paragraph under Turn Sequence Exceptions.

Generally speaking, unless an ability has specific permission to operate in your opponent's phase or affect your opponent's d00dz, it may not. So Initiative having nothing to do with shooting is actually irrelevant - the spod can't shoot in your opponent's phase. Period. Because nothing specifically allows it to do so.

A counter-example would be psychic powers, which have specific permission to be used in both your and your opponent's turns.

Doomthumbs wrote:Initiative has nothing to do with shooting. It was only brought up as a conjecture as to when in the opponents shooting phase the spore would get to shoot? At the start? At the same time as all of the opponents shooting?

Doom also doesn't HAVE to specify, does he? That it does is just gravy on top of the text that reads during each shooting phase.
Page 9 of the BRB also has provisions for my doing stuff during my opponents phases. Bottom right paragraph under Turn Sequence Exceptions.

Doom does need to. Can you produce a single example of an ability that works in an opponent's shooting phase that does not explicitly give that permission? There are lots of counter-examples.

Also, the fact that there is nothing stated as to when in the opponent's shooting phase you get to use the ability should have given you pause. Abilities that work in the opponent's shooting phase specify this.

@ Scott-S6: Settle down, he's not being combative, he is reading the codex verbatim, and it is unclear. This is not Doomthumb's fault it is either intentionally or un-intentionally vague... it is still vague. Doom is a damn smart guy, so he isn't trolling, he is just looking to make his agrument. Not conceed at the first sign of resistence.

@Doomthumbs: The vaguary of the entire thing lends it'self to the argument that maybe, juuuuust maybe, you are applying the wording in a sense that would benefit the Tyranid player?

And since all actions, by rote, that a player takes (unless specifically stated)... is during thier own turn??

Could we agree that this is also the case?

******************************************************

Also, since I am most likely to be the one affected by this, I must say.... my vote is to the negative. I am not impartial. ...read the sig.

SaintHazard wrote:Generally speaking, unless an ability has specific permission to operate in your opponent's phase or affect your opponent's d00dz, it may not. So Initiative having nothing to do with shooting is actually irrelevant - the spod can't shoot in your opponent's phase. Period. Because nothing specifically allows it to do so..

But it does. It says very specifically that the spore shoots in each shooting phase. I havn't found a rule that says it needs to specify further than that, So I'd like some counter examples rather than just a flat out no because you said so.
I've been told that plenty of these counter examples exist, but other than the Doom, I have found no precedent in ANY army that does something during the enemy shooting phases.
The IG orders argument was explained above. Not the same because TURN is specified as just your turn in the Big Rule Book.
The Teleport Homer is wargear, and doesnt apply for the enemy, ever, no just no.

But the Spod DOES say EACH shooting phase. Not each turn. Each shooting phase implies twice during one "game turn".

Also, if there are plenty of examples, I'd like to see one that has similar wording. It wont, so why isn't this a separate case?

Quote Doomthumbs: "So I'd like some counter examples rather than just a flat out no because you said so. "

Welcome to "Dakka: 40KYMDC" Muhahahaha!

For a counter argument: I'd point out Dire Avengers and Bladestorm.

Bladestorm allows you to get an extra shot from each DA in the squad, at the cost of not being able to shoot during the next shooting phase. If your enemy's shooting phase counted, then you could Bladestorm every shooting phase of your own and just not shoot during your enemy's.

Grakmar wrote:For a counter argument: I'd point out Dire Avengers and Bladestorm.

Bladestorm allows you to get an extra shot from each DA in the squad, at the cost of not being able to shoot during the next shooting phase. If your enemy's shooting phase counted, then you could Bladestorm every shooting phase of your own and just not shoot during your enemy's.

Almost. From pg 30 of my Codex, Bladestorm "The Exarch and his squad may choose to add one to the number of shots they make with thier shuriken weapons that turn. If the do so they may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase." It says turn first, like the IG issue, not the Tyranid one.

My defense to this one is further bolstered on that same page, humorously under "Defend". It says that they "... lose one Attack in each assault phase." Again the usage of 'each' and a reference to a phase. Would you insist that the enemy attackers lose one attack during their initial assault as well as losing one during the close combat of your next assault phase?

You bet your ass you would.

Yes, it terms of the advantage (extra shots) it uses the word turn. But, when discussing the drawback (no future shooting), it says "may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase." Wouldn't that be your opponent's shooting phase?

No. In the case of Bladestorm, the next shooting phase would be on your next turn. Because the effect is happening this turn, I would think that you would have to wait until your next shooting phase.

The rulebook is very clear on this. In every instance of the word turn, it specifies that it is in reference to just that players turn. My argument is that for the spore, there is no mention of turns. Just 'each' shooting phase.

The word each is the especially potent part of the phrase. Each is used to designate separate items included in the phrase as a whole. If the word Every was used instead, the language would read so as to include both player turns as a unit instead of 'separate as a unit'. This is why the Doom of Malantai includes extra wording on the subject, because Each and Every are not the same word, though they are similar.

Look this grammer stuff up. Google the usage of "Each vs Every". That should be fun. It blows my freakin' mind man.

Oh yeah, more evidence of the tyranids doin' stuff all up in your business.

Ymgarl Genestealers. pg 61 Tyranid codex, Alter Form. "At the start of every Assault phase.... cannot choose the same alteration in consecutive player turns."

They Alter form EVERY assault phase, but can't assume the same form on consecutive PLAYER TURNS.
So if I start them out with +1 attack for my assault, then change it to +1 toughness in your phase, I think I would have to then choose +1 strength on my next phase, and then +1 attacks again once the next phase came around.
That works in my mind as another example of the exact phrasing needed to do stuff.

Please help me understand.

Every is not the same as each.

Every implies that it happens in all of them, regardless of ownership.

Each implies that it happens only on yours.

Sadly the BRB doesn't go to lengths to define the words "each", "every", "a" and "2", so we have to default to the English (and I mean English, it was written here so you use our language damnit! ) language.

I like your assault examples, Doomthumbs. If you're told to do something in each assault phase, you do it in both yours and the enemies. If you're told do something in each shooting phase, why is it any different?

And for those saying that you don't have permission to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase - that's what the wording of the Pod's rule is giving you - permission to do just that.

@Gwar!
each
 /itʃ/ Show Spelled
[eech] Show IPA

–adjective
1. every one of two or more considered individually or one by one: each stone in a building; a hallway with a door at each end.

–pronoun
2. every one individually; each one: Each had a different solution to the problem.

—Synonyms
1. Each, every

puma713 wrote:I like your assault examples, Doomthumbs. If you're told to do something in each assault phase, you do it in both yours and the enemies. If you're told do something in each shooting phase, why is it any different?

And for those saying that you don't have permission to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase - that's what the wording of the Pod's rule is giving you - permission to do just that.

@Gwar!
each
 /itʃ/ Show Spelled
[eech] Show IPA

–adjective
1. every one of two or more considered individually or one by one: each stone in a building; a hallway with a door at each end.

–pronoun
2. every one individually; each one: Each had a different solution to the problem.

—Synonyms
1. Each, every

Reading is Tech.

The rule doesn't say you can fire in the opponents shooting phase. What the rule does do is force you to fire the spod every shooting phase it can (since firing is normally optional).

puma713 wrote:I like your assault examples, Doomthumbs. If you're told to do something in each assault phase, you do it in both yours and the enemies. If you're told do something in each shooting phase, why is it any different?

And for those saying that you don't have permission to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase - that's what the wording of the Pod's rule is giving you - permission to do just that.

My Blood Angel Librarians can use one psychic power each player turn. So I guess that's permission to use Blood Lance in your shooting phase?

You only get a shooting phase in your own turn, and unless something says, specifically, that you may fire in every shooting phase including your opponents, you don't get to do it.

forkbanger wrote:

puma713 wrote:I like your assault examples, Doomthumbs. If you're told to do something in each assault phase, you do it in both yours and the enemies. If you're told do something in each shooting phase, why is it any different?

And for those saying that you don't have permission to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase - that's what the wording of the Pod's rule is giving you - permission to do just that.

My Blood Angel Librarians can use one psychic power each player turn. So I guess that's permission to use Blood Lance in your shooting phase?

You only get a shooting phase in your own turn, and unless something says, specifically, that you may fire in every shooting phase including your opponents, you don't get to do it.

Apparently you haven't read the thread. Go back and read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:[Reading is Tech[/url].

I love this ^^. You say:

Gwar! wrote:so we have to default to the English (and I mean English, it was written here so you use our language damnit! ) language.

Then say you can't use the English dictionary to define the english language that you're using to understand something.

Wonderful parallel, there.

So, since we can't use the English definition of each and every (the ones we've been taught our entire life), and the BRB has it's own set of magical definitions, could you give me the page number of the BRB's defintion of 'each', since it's different than the English language? (Even though you said we should use the english language. . .*boggle*)

puma713 wrote:Then the Tenents of YMDC say you can't use the English dictionary to define the english language that you're using to understand something.

Wonderful parallel, there.

Fix'd for you.

Brush up on Da Roolz before Posting kthnx!

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:Then the Tenents of YMDC say you can't use the English dictionary to define the english language that you're using to understand something.

Wonderful parallel, there.

Fix'd for you.

Brush up on Da Roolz before Posting kthnx!

Now that you've got that out of your system, could you get back to the point and answer my post above, please?

Mycetic Spore- "The Mycetic Spore automatically shoots the closest enemy unit in each shooting phase..."
Librarian-"He can only use one power each player turn..."

Neither grants permission to shoot in an opponents turn. If the Spore can fire, it does so at the closest target. If, like the Doom of Malantai, it specified every shooting phase including your opponents, it would fire in every shooting phase. It doesn't.

Gwar! wrote:What the rule does do is force you to fire the spod every shooting phase it can (since firing is normally optional).

That makes sense, I still think it is muddy though. I don't have my rulebook to look at exact wording (since I'm at work and should be working rather than reading Dakka), but if you're going to go RAW, then each phase is each phase. However, the shooting rules may say, "In YOUR shooting phase, you may. . ." or something to that affect, limiting what you do.