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Punisher91090 wrote:Yea I prefer EML's and scatter lasers for my walkers idk but mine just seem to have been very lucky thus far because I have only had one be immobilized out of my 3 games with them. Unless your playing against a hoarde army in which case I would take dual scatterlasers on all my walkers I would definitely roll EML's. St8 Ap3 if Im not mistaken that even instant deaths marines.

Instant Death doesn't really matter against Marines (apart from FNP). Almost all marines (apart from HQs) only have 1 wound. And, if they're foolish enough to allocate a Str 8 wound to a non-EW character, you're playing a newbie. So, go easy on them.

Oh, and, why aren't your War Walkers dead more? I find them to be considered quite a significant threat, and with 10armor, they are killed fairly quickly. That's not a huge deal as they are so cheap.

But, yeah, don't mix and match your weapons, stick with 1 gun and run 6 of it.

EML or Scatter Laser are both totally valid, and I'd actually throw Star Cannons into the mix, especially with all the FNP running around these days.

Araenion wrote:

Picture this...a usual sized battlefield, the enemy slowly advancing toward you,

I am usually the one who flanks my enemy, the only thing I have at the back is 2 fire prisms for fire support, plus the walkers if needed


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Punisher91090 wrote:Yea I prefer EML's and scatter lasers for my walkers idk but mine just seem to have been very lucky thus far because I have only had one be immobilized out of my 3 games with them. quote]

That would be a destroy if you have a squad

Personally I would knock the 2nd Bladestorm unit down to a 5 man w/o exarch and that would free up enough points for holos on the prisms and have 20+ points left over. I say this because you only have enough farseer to effectively use bladestorm from one unit with guide/doom. With the left over points I would upgrade t he TL shurican to Scatters or EML

Thanks a lot for that idea BlueDagger, but I think its better off this way, because my farseer has doom and guide,which means he helps a little bit for both units.
And nothing so far(except 30 man units, with I dont deal with dire avenger) has ever survive bladestorm+shots from serpents

Why do you have RL instead of Bright Lances?

War Walkers are interesting. If they work they work. You could get another FD Squad or a Howling Banshee Squad.

You could get a ranger squad to hold an objective, or even jetbikes.

Another Prism like some suggested, or even a wraithlord.

Swooping Hawks would be interesting, even dark reapears.

Pretty solid List IMO, nice job.

BL is expensive, and you should only ever put it on a unit with WS4 or better.

I dont really like bright lances, they are way too unreliable...I like things that you know it works 99.99%(fire dragons)

TL BS3 is statistically better than BS4. Be that as it may, they're a pretty unique weapon in Eldar arsenal. Nothing else can penetrate AV 14 from our long range firepower, except the Prism beam.

I'd always use EMLs, really, except they just don't give me the same assurance. BLs can pen anything(don't mention the "Big black box", thank you), EML can't. That's all the reason to take them, where I'm concerned.

Yes, but that is literally all they can do is pen armor. EML Give you a great anti-infantry weapon and the ability to pen most things (like transports or walkers). To each their own, but the versatility of EML is why they are so common.

Guys, they're both totally valid options. BL is great anti-AV 14, Scatter Laser is great anti-horde, and EML is great versatility. Any of those are totally legit choices.

Whoever said they weren't legit? I wasn't under the impression any one of us was argumentative about it...

Fact is that BL is an overpriced piece of wargear that is essentially a less useful EML in all respects except against AV 14. Fact also remains that if your only other anti-AV14 are a single unit of Fire Dragons, ergo something that is really squishy and doesn't have long-lasting potential(as in, they won't shoot twice), then BLs are a must, because they can do what EML can't. Even though we pay a ridiculous price for that.

Other than that, I prefer EML. Even though I always take BLs. Go figure.

Two prisms and Eldrad, 2 TL 60" Blast Lascannons ;P

Araenion wrote:Whoever said they weren't legit? I wasn't under the impression any one of us was argumentative about it...

Fact is that BL is an overpriced piece of wargear that is essentially a less useful EML in all respects except against AV 14. Fact also remains that if your only other anti-AV14 are a single unit of Fire Dragons, ergo something that is really squishy and doesn't have long-lasting potential(as in, they won't shoot twice), then BLs are a must, because they can do what EML can't. Even though we pay a ridiculous price for that.

Other than that, I prefer EML. Even though I always take BLs. Go figure.

One of the things I like about Eldar Weaponry is that on its own, they are almost all better then average weapons (even the much maligned Starcannon). Unfortunately, since you HAVE to make choices, you sometimes end up comparing them to each other. In this case, it is 100% reliant on tactica, which is great imo.

In this army I decide to go with EML and cheap shruicannons, because first I want to pin units like long fang and marine devs, second I want to deal with transport heavy lists like rhino walls and kan walls.Lance is a great weapon indeed, but I do not have the points for them.

In my next all comer list your eyes will burn with the sheer amount of lances I will put in.

With 2 dragon squads you really don't need them (BLs). I use them because I only run one dragon squad. I have BLs on the falcon and 2 serpents, plus I have 2 prisms. At 1500, I think your list is fine. You don't need to change because 2x squads of fire dragons may even be overkill. EMLs will take care of just about anything else.

Yea I think my dragons are sufficient enough

I'm just coming back to the game and picking Eldar for my first army. I really like the look of this army list. Could you let me know how you would go about expanding an army like this into a 2,000 pt army?

I think if it was me who's going into 2000pt army, I would add one more unit of fire dragons in serpent, some vypers, and if possible another dire avenger unit in serpent.

And I'm gald you like my list

Thank you. Do you think Shining Spears would be worth it at all? I don't necessarily mean ideal for competition, but at least useful for a friendly game at 2,000 pts?

They are not very useful in my opinion, I've play tested them twice in this list, they just failed...just...failed.
They charge, kill something, then get killed.Not really worth thier points.
Sure they punch holes in medium tanks, but still...not a high chance, and usually die after that.And this is IMO the best they could do

I've always really liked shinging spears. The problem is there's only 1 real way to run them. A 5 man sqaud with exarch/withdraw and an autarch on a jetbike with mandiblasters and laser lance. A laser lance is a one handed weapon so you do get the extra close combat bonus from a shuriken pistol. SO your getting an extra 6 attacks.
But there weak in sustianed combat. They lose that charge and go back to strength 3 attacks next turn. They need withdraw if they're unable to completly destroy a sqaud.

They're also to much of a target in mech lists. Any units that has a low chance of destroying a wave serpent will most likely shoot at them, so you do have to be careful. The last thing you'll want is a plasma cannon. I've never seen shining spears be truely effective(surviiving the game and destryoing mulitple units) is with 2 other sqauds of guardian jetbikes.

With the points of Shining Spears, I would rather take another unit of fire dragons in a serpent, or even 5 Hawks with skyleap.

Hawks with skyleap can jump in and out IN THE SAME TURN and basically they drop a bomb every turn with no risk

Also, don't forget that for a similar amount of points shining spears are almost across the board out performed by Bike Lock Councils with a fortune seer.

Generally if you have the extra 360 or so points for an Autarch + Spears, your list will be better served with a warlock council.

Re rolling 3+ and 4+ invulnerable, and wounding everything on a 2, and s9 vs vehicles simply outperforms the spears in almost every material way.

akaean wrote:Also, don't forget that for a similar amount of points shining spears are almost across the board out performed by Bike Lock Councils with a fortune seer.

Generally if you have the extra 360 or so points for an Autarch + Spears, your list will be better served with a warlock council.

Re rolling 3+ and 4+ invulnerable, and wounding everything on a 2, and s9 vs vehicles simply outperforms the spears in almost every material way.

I flat out don't like seer councils. Their lack of power weapons makes them to ineffective to me. A farseer with both runes, a jetbike, and just the guide power is 140 points. Along with 40 points for each warlock and an extra 15 points for enhance. For 355 points you get 5 warlocks and a farseer.

If they charge they get 18 attacks. With WS 5 statistically 12 will hit, of which 10 will wound. On average you'll kill 1-2 terminators just on a charge.

The shining spears with autarch would get 17 attacks on a charge. 8 at WS 4, 3 at WS 5 and 6 at WS6. You'll get 12 hits and 10 wounds. And if your lenient with that 5++ invulnerable save 6 terminators will die.

Naturally there are pros to the warlocks too, they'll be to really hard to kill along destroying high toughness models and vehicles, but the shining spears can just do more and if they completely fail, they can get in combat while the warlocks are stuck.


But this is all just statistics; depending on the scenario, the enemy and how you play them will decide on how truly effective they are.

really what you aren't taking into account are the fact that shining spears
a) need get the charge or they pillow fight with the enemy
b) don't have an invulnerable save
c) generally will be with an autarch, and not a fortune seer.

I will grant you that in terms of killing low armor save, high invulnerable save, low toughness models on the charge, shining spears surpass the council... but there are a lot of "ifs" there

1) "on the charge"
Oh dear. Shining Spears cost 35 points a model, and have the defensive stats of a space marine combat squad. In order to get the charge, there needs to be a unit within 18 inches of the shining spears, if your opponent is worth his salt, he'll avoid moving units into this bubble. Unless you play with huge amounts of LoS blocking terrain to fly over... I can see taking a good volley of shooting before you get a charge.

A council on the other hand, can be used much more aggressively. if fortune goes up, a re rolling 3+ is slightly better than terminator armor against small arms fire, and a re rolling 4+ is slightly better than a storm shield. This coupled with the council always wounding on a 2 regardless of whether they charged or not- allows you to place them much closer to the enemy.

2) "low armor saves"

Ok. Terminators are overpriced in nearly every SM book. And small arms fire can deal with a 3+ save anyway. Shining spears are undeniably superior at fighting 3+ 4+ fnp units, but this only comes into play against plague marines. Against Edward Marines, you just have a dance off, since they can't move within 18 inches of you, and you can't move within 18 inches of them (or they get the charge).

Council admittedly doesn't do well here, but their main purpose is to kill vehicles / tarpit. And boy can they tarpit. If you can keep your farseer out of base to base with your enemies, you can tie up a terminator squad all game

3) "high invulnerable save"

Shining Spears are power weapons, and that doesn't ignore invulnerable saves. With the rise of 3++ storm shields... You really can't engage assault terminators, even on the charge. And lets face it, if people take terminator armor... they usually take these.

Council's are far better against these types of things, because as said above, they can effectively take a terminator squad out of the game.

4) "low toughness"

Thats right, Shining Spears really need to be hitting t5 units or lower if they want to out perform a council significantly. Aside from the Autarch, they really don't have many attacks on the charge. Really, if it weren't for the Autarch getting 6 attacks on the charge... the squad would have an obscenely low number of attacks. Yes spears will hit monstrous creatures pretty hard with their s6 power weapons, but so does always wounding on a 2+, and if you are hitting tougher models, failing to wound rolls can really hurt you.

As noted above, the council is also excellent at dealing with high toughness models. Always wounding on a 2, really is great against t6+ units, as you can force them to take many 3+ saves, and drag them down quickly.


Basically, to put it simply, while you'll generally pay around 530 points for a decent council (fortune seer with warding + 8 jetlocks) You get so much more. The survivability, and near equal if not superior fighting power (councils are vastly superior against armored targets, and hordes, and the survivability means they'll out perform spears against units with low invunlerable saves)

You also don't need to worry about being in rapid fire range as much when you're approaching your targets.

To sum up what Akaean said. SS are terrible

Everything you said is true. The main point I think you're trying to make is that Shining Spears are easy to kill for their points, while A seer council would be hard to kill. But I'm gonna say that shining Spears aren't terrible they are just hard to use. A seer council is easy to use. Just attack high priority targets. But SS have to be used so precisely and perfect that it's easy to fail and lose 300+ points.

But I did just have an idea. Seer Council Jetbikes with an autarch on jetbike with laser lance? I wonder how that would play out.

I take shining spears as a practice, and when it comes in competitive games they observe.Well...now they are green paper in my pocket

The Autarch in that scenario is almost superfluous. He does add some nice power/anti-tank attacks, but it's nothing the 3 jetlocks with witch weapons couldn't do pretty much the same.

How would you expand your army to 2000 pts?
Any experience?