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@Templar

It isn't wrong if your opponent is trying to save his firebase from 2 marauding Dreadnoughts and the like...Razorbacks can only move 12" a turn, 6" if they still want to shoot something...24" is plenty enough, especially if you're bearing down the Space Wolves throat with 2 Vindicators and a Land Raider...the fact is, they will not be able to spread out fast enough to get out of the 24" threat range...But sure, go ahead and use Missile Launchers, not like I am saying one is better than the other (well the Multi-melta is better up to 24") but it doesn't really matter as the AV isn't going to be higher then 11 in that particular army...no where does the OP say that homeboy sits around with a Land Raider or anything like that...and I'm assuming this list would be used solely against the Space Wolf Player...if you want well rounded don't listen to me, I just know how to kill Space Wolf players.

And I figured by now everyone understood that Space Wolves can have 4 H.Q.'s that are almost exactly alike thanks to the rehashing of Leaders of the Pack over and over again...

Droppods can ruin a space wolfs day. Taking Sternguard with combi weapons will often burn longfangs, though tempests wrath can sometimes overcome that issue.

So I suggest droppods- filled with sternguard. Pedro Cantor can give them some more punch by making them troops for those handy objective missions.So a two part threat- Droppods and landraiders bearing down on the space wolves. They'll come close, only to be blasted away agian.

Also, keep in mind that SW are a 'close range' army, so they will often beat you in assault and in close 24- 12 inch range. Long range support like predators or thunderfire cannons, as well as fast units like land speeders, can ruin your friends day.

Hope this helps!

Pedro makes them scoring not troops. (important to remember that)

Ah, sorry there. My buds borrowing my nilla 'dex, so his rules arent in front of me. Still, scoring , stubborn sternguard are never bad.

Wouldnt stubborn sterns mean you'll have to stick into combat longer?

im happy i have never played SW yet, thats all i can say.

Sageheart wrote:im happy i have never played SW yet, thats all i can say.

You should be happy

As a SW player, I can comment on what works against the units he's using;

-Typhoons melt under long-range anti-tank (missile, las, etc.); two or three shots of anything will set them on fire.

-SS/CF lone wolves are, quite frankly, rediculous for the point cost. You can ignore them for a turn or two while they slog across the table, but be sure to hit them with a couple bolter shots to clear away the fenrisian wolves early on (you want to force at least 2 saves when a unit fires so he can't take the save on the lone wolf). Once the fenrisian wolves are gone, Nullzone takes them from unstoppable to an easy kill with AP2 weapons. You can't ID them, but a few meltas or lascannons or whatever you've got to spare will do.

-if he's running plain 5-man squads with just a melta (and he looks to be by the points), his troops aren't doing anything useful but scoring. Smash the razorbacks and they're not much threat anymore.

-Longfangs in cover are tough to dislodge, but they hate 2 things: volume of fire, or being assaulted by, frankly, anything. a 6-man unit even counterattacking is only getting 13 attacks, so beat them up or just hose them with bolters, thunderfires, or something like that.

-The HQ are, like all SW options, pretty badass. You're just going to have to throw everything you can at their units; Njal in particular, because as the game wears on his stormcaller power gets better and better.



To be honest, I don't see his list as particularly great. He's picked out a few of the good unit setups in the book (SS/CF lone wolves and anti-tank Long Fangs for example), but he's not capitalizing on one of the greatest strengths of the codex; the grey hunter squad. A pimped out 9-man w/ wolfguard in a rhino is probably the best 243 points you can spend; I've walked one through 3 units of similar cost and still came out the other end to score.

Any self-respecting assault army would pimp-slap his pretty good, but sadly you can't really do a proper all-assault SM army (closest is a range/melee combined arms) so you'll just need to outplay rather than outshoot him.

Firstly, you want your army to have Combat Tactics so that you can exit any combat that the Space Wolves force, you can escape any firefight with them that you will lose, and so on. Look up Combat Tactics. Its uses have been written about at length and the new search function is good.

Secondly, bring some pinning weapons, preferably a Whirlwind or two, but a Thunderfire Cannon or some Scout Snipers will also be good. Telion will be good for culling the Librarians, Standard Bearers, Long Fang Pack Leaders (no Pack Leader, and no Fire Control) and other specialists. Whirlwinds are nice though because they can stay out of line of sight and pound his infantry, particularly the Long Fangs. Long Fangs are Ld9, Grey Hunters are Ld8. That's Ld8 and Ld7 respectively where they take a wound from a Whirlwind barrage. Something to consider when taking Whirlwinds is taking a Hunter-Killer Missile so they can act on the first turn - expensive, but effective against lightly armoured tanks like Razorbacks. Remember that one or two pinning weapons probably won't do the job, much like fire from one or two units isn't going to do much to him: Concentrate fire!

Thirdly, use Combat Squads for multiple small units. You want to have move units than him, even during kill points games: the risk of giving away more Kill Points is outweighed by their utility. Simply put you need to give him more targets than he can shoot. With proper positioning, you can also reduce the number of units he can charge, and to make those charges pyrrhic victories (see: Combat Tactics).

Fourthly, concentrate your firepower and make sure that you have a target priority. Make sure you're able to kill the dangerous stuff first, or at least interdict it by stunning or pinning. Reduce what can shoot. Use Combat Tactics to move a squad out of the line of fire if they're in danger of being wiped out by concentrated fire. Remember, so long as a single Tactical Marine survives, he can rally and score.

Fifthly, consider taking Cato Sicarius for the following four reasons: Combat Tactics (see above), Rites of Battle (Ld10 for all combat squads), Battle Forged Heroes (adds a special rule to a Tactical Squad: Use them to outflank!), and Surprise Attack. Making Nigel Stormcaller act on the 2nd player's turn can negate his extra rules to your advantage. Surprise Attack is always worth the risk.

Sixthly, consider taking some Techmarines, either attached to a Thunderfire Cannon, or running around as an Independent Character. Their ability to Bolster Defences, as well as being able to lend some serious weight to a squad means they'll be able to minimize Space Wolf firepower (Sv2+ for your Scouts via Cover (4+), Stealth (3+), Bolster Defences (2+).

Notice what this advice all adds up to: It adds up to controlling the battlefield (Bolster Defenses, Combat Squads, Surprise Attack, Null Zone, etc), controlling your opponent's ability to act (Telion, pinning, stunning, outflanking, Rites of Battle, Combat Tactics, etc), and fighting him where he has no advantage: In a fluid shooting battle.

Wow... agree completely with nurglitch, tho sternguard in pods can be a nasty suprise...

kenshin620 wrote:Wouldnt stubborn sterns mean you'll have to stick into combat longer?

yeah, but you will be trying to avoid having your sternguard get into CC.

You then have Pedro go knocking about with some Assault terminators to give them +1 attack(LC terminator=4 attacks base, 5 on charge )

You do lose the ability to auto-break from CC, but that really won't effect those Assault terminators as they should be winning their combat.

Go blood angels.

Shadowbrand wrote:Go blood angels.

No, go Dark Eldar. They're newer and therefore even more OP than Space Wolves.

Against that, just Double 5x TH/SS termie squads in Double LRR with vulkan and a Libby for the hood. The only thing he can really hurt you with is the 6 lascannons, and even those dont have a very high chance of doing anything significant, and by the time meltaguns are anywhere near you, you are close enough to them.

Counter cheeze with cheeze thats all I can say.

@op
First of all, you are playing a tournament army with a non-tournament army which is your first issue.

Second of all, don't think his army is overpowered, WAAC, broken or any other similar defeatist attitude. Don;t tell him you're going to take your toys and go home either as some people suggest. Find a way to win and it will be much more rewarding than throwing your hands up in the air and giving up (not suggesting that it what you were doing, it is just annoying to see a lot of people give advice in that vein). If you go into it thinking you can't win, you're screwed.

Wolves like that are about as good of an army as you will ever play.

The best way to take on an army like that is to attack it's weaknesses. The only assault he has is his lone wolves. If you can get into combat, you will crush his long fangs and little grey hunter squads.

Your list is honestly not very competitive. If you want to take on a tournament list, as others have said, you need to ratchet up the power levels. If you are using Vulkan, utilize units that take advantage of this special abilities, otherwise, why bother?

I agree with Nurglitch on a lot of points so I won't repeat him, but you can outshoot that wolf list. You either have to go that route or go for some assault units that can get into his Long Fangs and Njal.

If you have the models, try these lists to counter the wolves, one will out shoot him, the other will crump him in combat.

HQ
Libby Avenger, Null Zone 1 100

Troops
Tactical Squad Melta, L.Canon, Razorback 11 225
Tactical Squad Melta, L.Canon, Razorback 11 225
Tactical Squad Plasma, L.Canon, Razorback 11 230
Tactical Squad Plasma, L.Canon, Razorback 11 230

Elites

Fast Attack
Typhoon 2 180
Typhoon 2 180
Typhoon 2 180

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad 4 x M.Launcher 5 150
Devastator Squad 4 x M.Launcher 5 150
Devastator Squad 4 x M.Launcher 5 150

Totals 66 2000

That gives you more missiles, more flak (which is great for killing long fangs in cover) and about the same amount of las cannons. You have anti psyker defense, scoring ability, a large number of targets and mobility. That puts you about on par with the wolves. Njal will be a pain, but not much to be done about that apart from sniping him if possible.

The problem with this is that it is a first turn game. He who goes first in this show down, probably goes last unless you have a lot of terrain. If you go first, you will have a firepower advantage.

If you want to smash his face, go with something like this:

Shrike 1 195
Chaplain J.Pack 1 115

Troops
Scouts P.Fist 10 165
Scouts P.Fist 10 165
Scouts P.Fist 10 165
Sniper Scouts Cloaks, H.Bolter 5 100

Elites
Sternguard C.Plasma x5, C.Melta x5, D.Pod 11 335
Dreadnought A.Cannon, H.Flamer, D.Pod 2 160
Dreadnought Auto Cannon x 2, D.Pod 2 160

Fast Attack
Assault Squad P.Fist 10 215
Assault Squad P.Fist 10 215

Heavy Support

Totals 72 1990

Now, most people don;t have this many scouts, so you can play around with that, but the advantage of this list is that you have all kinds of deployment options.

If you go first, you are first turn charging him with 42 bodies. That means those Longs Fangs are toast. The Auto cannon dread in the pod starts on the board to pop razorbacks, he doesn;t actually go in the pod, it's just there to get the other two pods down turn one. The other dread and sternguard (who combat squad out of the pod) open transports.

The little sniper scout squad is just there to objective camp and for sniping at long fangs.

If you go second, you outflank the scouts unless you have good enough cover to hide and then fleet in as fast as you can.

This list is a real surprise, when I use it people are just put on their back foot because so much is in their face turn one. This is the kind of list that can take missile wolves with brute force and denying him time to shoot at you.

The list you have now, really just isn't going to get it done unless you get pretty lucky.

I hope that helps. If you don;t have the models to make a drastic change, you may need to just get really creative, play for the tie, play for objectives, etc.

@Zeekil

I thought the same thing, but he said the GH squads tote around melta weapons which would waste the LR's.

Psykers are a was of points, as Chaos can and has beat Najal and his Space Puppies using this tactic.

Chaos Lord, termie armor, demon weapon (Bloodletter)

10 Chaos Termies w/ 2 reaper cannons, w/ x8 chain fist.

8-10 Raptors w/ plasma pistol champ.

x3 Oblitorators.

Deep Strike these units behind the puppies.

x2 Predator with x2 lascanon turret upgrade and hvy armor.

20 Bezerkers w/ demon prince.

10 Havocs with x2 missile launcher, x2 las cannon.

This list has beaten Space Wolfs every time I have faced them, just beware of a Space Wolf plasma gun line as it will burn you badly. Charge everything into close combat as fast as you can to deny the hvy weapon burn. Good luck....

Ok; 2000 points tailored Vs that SW list:

2 HQs(sorry but one of them is a UM SC)
Master of the Forge w/Conversion Beamer 120
Chaplain Cassius(UM SC; but fantastic for the points)125

3 Elites:
Dread w/Assault Cannon and heavy Flamer 120

Dread w/Assault Cannon and heavy Flamer 120

10 Sternguard (MotF goes here) 250

4 Troops:
10 tac marines, 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma cannon, Sgt has Storm bolter 195

10 tac marines, 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma cannon, Sgt has Storm bolter 195

10 tac marines, 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma cannon, Sgt has Storm bolter 195

10 tac marines, 1 Melta, Sgt has Power Weapon(cassius goes here) 190


2 Fast Attack
Land Raider Tornado w/ heavy Flamer and Multimelta 70

Land Raider Tornado w/ heavy Flamer and Multimelta 70

2 Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer w/storm bolter(cassius and squad go in here) 250

Dakka pred AC+HB sponsons w/storm bolter 95

You also have a Spare 5 points to throw onto something.

Tactics: Master of the Forge and Sterngaurd camp in a Rear corner preferably in a Bolstered Ruin; place this ruin as near to your Table edge as possible. Cassius and Squad go in the redeemer pretty much at the edge of your deployment zone. Give the 3 Plasma heavy Squads as much of a field of fire as you can; But space them out in your zone, and try to put them in cover. the tornadoes will be at the front of your zone unless you are going second(you don't want them popped early), Dreads at the front of your Zone. In objective games Combat Squad your 2 Plasma squads taking 5 Bolter marines out of each, these are your objective rushers. Always make sure to put an objective on your home (bolstered)Ruin.

Movement Phases will be easy, the dreads and redeemer all move forward, equally threatening your enemies forces(and thus being equally prioritized targets), the land speeders move Flat out first turn(Maybe pop smoke with the redeemer first turn as well); all foot infantry will be sitting stationary(even your objective rushers in the first and second turns).

Shooting Phases will be Broken up by priority: Dreads should be shooting at Transports or the typhoons if they are in Range, Tornadoes should be getting within 12" and multi-melta-ing his Razors ASAP, once they are gone go Heavy flamer his longfangs(if everything goes as planned this could/should be turn 2, 3 at the latest but they should be very hurt by then), plasma Squads fire as soon as an enemy is in range and go for troops. I am sure you can figure out the rest.

Dev squads, Dreadnaughts (ironclads work best), Sternguard squads, maybe some terminators. Theres a lot of options; just sucks SW get more for less comparitively

Its not that hard to beat. Your list is just very weak.

Here's some tactics and ideas that are solid and fit in an all comers list:

-Deepstrike Assault terminators near his long fangs. Because they have armor save of 2+ they will shrug off massed ML spam directed at them. Now he has a difficult decision of moving them away and miss a few firing turns or eat Thunder hammers.

-Spam AutoLas Preds. AV13 is tough as nails to kill with ML spam and will wreck his Typhoons and razorbacks in no time. Pretty cheap too.

-Group your tacs into 10 man. Put them in a rhino. Put the Rhino behind the Land Raider. 10-man Tacs beat 5 man Grey hunters. Forget firing the HW. If the rhino dies, put the tacs inside Land raider. When your tacs get in range of long fangs grey hunters, hose them down with rapid fire.

-Use null zone. The psychic hood will probably annoy Njal and his psychic shenanigans and the null zone will make Lone wolves piss their pants when they are force to reroll their successful invul saves.

-Heavy bolter spammed Typhoon land speeders. This will outshoot Long fangs if you get first shot. They do more when ignored. Keep them in cover, turbo boost later for that objective contesting.

-Multimelta/Assault Cannon Dreads. They are underrated, but cheap enough to warrant as another AV threat. Give them extra armor. Walk them along side advancing rhinos and land raider. Every turn they get nearer, the more threatening they will be.

Xca|iber wrote:1. Play lots of people and gain experience.
2. Be a [see forum posting rules] and buy the latest and best army, then roll well to go first.
3. ?????
4. Profit.

You missed a valid point for 2.

Also why is everyone advocating vanilla marines? Nilla marines are trash, either get fast razorback spam(BA) or guard leafblower.

Reecius wrote:@Zeekil

I thought the same thing, but he said the GH squads tote around melta weapons which would waste the LR's.

I mentioned that however. Even if he kills it, by then the 2 LR will be close enough for the Assault Termies to trash anything that comes their way

Well here how you beat SW, either you play the same type of army or BA, IG is on the so so list. The reason for the this is that IG as lost every game they have played against me. Your going to have to be a tatical player and understand the weakness of your army and SW. his list consist with alot shooting power so your going to have to drop in with drop pod and hope for the best. Take the fight to the SW and not the other way around.

I'd so take Runes of Warding against his psykers... it's so much fun to watch them kill themselves from perils... maybe a psychic hood would help? Njal is pretty insane but he's really easy to kill in cc.

Lord Waffles and gumby: The OP said he plays 'nilla Marines, wanted a list, and didn't want to use UMs(Which i ignored).