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IIRC Divine Guidence is Rending not AP1 as it applies to CC as well as Shooting.

Divine Guidance is not rending. Its rules cause all shots to count as AP 1 on the to wound roll of a 6 (rending would enable a SoB squad to roll an extra d3 against armor which DG does not allow because 1. it is not rending and 2. you do not get a to wound roll against vehicles...if it could thought it would be, quite honestly....awesome) Further, it states that in CC all 6's count as having come from power weapons.

In the new codex I hope DG becomes rending for "simplicity"...I can't wait to rapid fire my way through transports...

calypso2ts wrote:The best chance to 'understand' faith is to download the codex for free from the GW site. Given the WH/DH codex costs nothing now everyone should at least give it a read through.

Here is a breakdown though - Tests of Faith are based on squad size. If a squad has an Imagifier it gets to roll 3d6 and pick 2. This is for the Seraphim mainly, noone takes it in normal squads. What you need to get the Act of Faith can be thought of as when do you 'need' the act....

Spirit of the Martyr - Invuln Save, Under squad size
Divine Guidance - 6's to wound AP 1, Over squad size

Those are really the only two you need to know. The other 3 are less used - +2 S, +2 I and Fearless

Edit: For a 9 man AM squad w/ a fist 3 wounds isn't that bad. 16 basic attacks, 8 hits, 5.3 wounds w/ 3.3 unsaved wounds plus Fist, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.84 wounds, 0.5 wounds

Average of 4 wounds - the Invuln tends to mess up peoples math in combat as well since a PF isnt an autokill. On the other hand, even if it is not worth it point wise...it is never a good idea to let 3 Eviscerators with 7 attacks hitting on 4+ and 3 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls to hit to come through. I can definitely see that wiping a squad...

No, that was 3 wounds... before saves lol. My PF flubbed as well. In all, I only killed 1 sister for that combat :(

Okay 3 wounds before saves is a little worse, about half what you should expect normally. You still probably wouldnt have sniped out an Eviscerator, but it would have probably been nice to get the squad down in size. Then again, that would have made SotM easier.

I have found it is best to kill an entire SoB squad in one turn of attacks from size 8 or 10 to zero. Otherwise they become really obnoxious with that invulnerable save.

yes. you have to eliminate the squad completely. the squad is still 90% effective as long as the flame weapons are still in it. even non-rending flamers are deadly.

A quick Explanation of faith is thus:

Each Faithful Squad contributes 1 faith point. Basic Sisters Only become faithful by adding a sister superior (Veteran Sergeant.) A Cannoness gives more.

The acts of faith are rolled on 2d6 and you have to compare to squad size in some way for squads. Some are higher others are lower. There is a squad upgrade that can get you an extra d6 so you can choose the best 2 dice.

Independent chars testing alone use LD.
This is Just an overview of how the book form of the Codex works...hope it wasn't too Close to actual rules to cause a violation.

Cheers,
~Volkan

You can probably be a bit more free with posting the rules to an extent because the codex is available in pdf form from the GW site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=9800045a

You just tell them to get back in the kitchen.

Or pop open the metal boxes and start wiping out sister squads.

The only really good part of the list is the damn d6 missile gunship rhinos that sit in the back, you break those and you're golden.

LordWaffles wrote:You just tell them to get back in the kitchen.

Or pop open the metal boxes and start wiping out sister squads.

The only really good part of the list is the damn d6 missile gunship rhinos that sit in the back, you break those and you're golden.

This is, naturally, the exact opposite advice any SoB player has been giving him...

Exorcists are useful, but with a competently created Sisters list it's not all of your anti-tank.

In fact, IMO the best sisters builds focuses around four to six Battle Sister squads with two meltaguns and a combiflamer each. Put them in a rhino with smoke and add exorcists and either a jump canoness and seraphim or a mech canoness and celestians as support (I prefer the latter, with a blessed weapon and a PW+BP on the celestian superior, but it's really up to personal preference as these merely support the battle sisters), and that's the general list for fifth edition. Double flamer squads are entirely anti-infantry, and half the time they're overkill anyway.

Sisters have plenty of anti-infantry firepower with bolter shock and a combiflamer to add that umph whenever they need it most. But melta spam really is good, especially when you have to face off against Guard vehicle spam a lot.


Also, the easiest way to beat a Sisters list is through autocannon spam to open up their transports, and then large blast spam to force them to take wounds. Preferably AP3 or better blasts, so that they rely on cover saves and basically end up as expensive guardsmen.

Great advice all around, if I should face Sisters I will be much better prepared

just remember. killing the rhinos is absolutely key. if they cant flame you they cant win.

AF is correct.

Do not shoot anything on the exorcist that you can spare for rhinos.
Exos may be deadly but most of the time they are 3 shots s8. This is nothing to fear. What you should fear is 30+ sisters in close range.

The key to success is:

Killing the rhinos as fast as possible and wiping a squad a time. (The 3++ save works only in small numbers and at the start of the phase and not inside a transport!).
This means: If you pop a transport the sweethearts inside will have t3 3+ armour and no inv. for the remaining shooting phase. So you should shoot at them or ignore them so they are likely to fail their check and assault them to death.
But remember, they are T3 so regular attacks bring them down quickly.

calypso2ts wrote:

LordWaffles wrote:You just tell them to get back in the kitchen.

Or pop open the metal boxes and start wiping out sister squads.

The only really good part of the list is the damn d6 missile gunship rhinos that sit in the back, you break those and you're golden.

This is, naturally, the exact opposite advice any SoB player has been giving him...

The SoB players are obviously traitors. And I don't see where the big scare comes in if you're running a decent mech list. The sisters get out, blow up your ride, then you get to assault them after roughing them up a bit more.

Alternatively, if the exorcists are in the back firing, they pop open your transport, then you get flammered by the squads of sisters. This is less than ideal.

In short, if you can shake/stun the exorcists, stop shooting at them, but they are essential to stopping you from losing both the squad and the ride.


In second thought looking at the list you were running I'd say spend all your firepower on rhinos, sparing some on the exorcists. The heavy support makes a mockery of most armor but you've got moreso the heavier end it looks like(Furioso is av13 right?) so they're not as vital. But with your ten men jump packers you make it very difficult to give you good advice against a well-run mech list.
(God knows why the sisters player brought seraphim.) Watch out for flamers and for the love of god first priority is to keep meltas off the raider.

Oh and the cannoness has to burn faith points for the 2+ invul. The way to beat it is either to force her to burn that faith point often(shoot, then assault) or just weight of numbers beat her(She's still hit on 4's wounded on 3's)

You dont need to destroy all the rhino's to cripple a sister player.

Ask what rhinos are carrying what weapons. Destroy the first two or three that carry the biggest threats to your army. This will force the sister player to re-evaluate his overall strategy. Sister squads only do well when they dont get assaulted so they generally need to support each other. If you have his melta squads walking for example, he cant rush his flamer squads ahead to open up your transports, he will have to try and shield his meltas with his other rhinos as he walks up and you'll have effectively bought yourself more time.

Once you have that done, only spare enough anti-tank to glance those exorcists one at a time. Once they've been glanced, they're not going to be shooting anything on their next turn effectively crippling all the long range fire a sister player will generally have. If you blow one up in the process, even better, but that is not what anyone facing sisters should aim for first. Once glanced, resume shooting the rest of his rhinos.

And lastly, like everyone said, know how faith points work. A lot of sister players themselves dont know how to use them properly and might cheat you out of a victory due to poor knowledge on their own part. Print that faith sheet from the games-workshop site and pull it out of your case if you're facing a sisters player.

You know what's funny about this is that almost everyone I've seen on this site that plays sisters plays them the exact opposite of the way I do.

A strategy that's worked for me is a Sisters gunline augmented by the inclusion of 3 inquisitors with plasma cannon and heavy bolter servitors.

3 exos, 3 battle sisters squads, 3 seraphim squads, 3 inquisitors w/retinue, 1 canoness w/ jumppack, and a retributor squad is a fairly standard list that as of yet has held up well to almost everything.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Zid
I've played against a sisters list that looks almost exactly like that probably a hundred times in the last 3 years. It's rough. A few things I've figured out;

1. the rhinos are your priority targets; if they have to walk it's alot harder for them to flame you; if they can't flame you they can't win. you've got to resist the temptation to shoot the exorcists. They're not the real threat. The sisters are.
2. quantity, not quality, of attacks is what you need to handle sisters. Faith helps them survive high strength/low ap/low rate of fire attacks like plasmaguns or lascannons, but it doesnt help them at all against flame throwers or bolters. Their low toughness actually makes them more susceptible.
3. keep your hqs out of close combat with the cannonness. She's cheaper than most hqs and has a good chance to beat the gak out of almost any *individual* model she assaults. however if you jump her with a squad of tacticals she won't last long. again its quantity not quality of attacks that matters against her. So in this case if you're going to run mephiston his best use is to charge a squad of sisters, not the cannonness.
4. multi assault themw henever possible. Blood Angels troopers with a priest to back them up can handle any number of sisters in close combat. Trust your guys to win up close. What you dont want is to wipe 1 squad of sisters and then get roasted by the sisters right behind them. In a squad for squad trade the sisters player wins because sisters are alot cheaper than blood angels. You need to charge more than 1 sister squad in order to come out ahead.

sisters are wicked annoying. good luck.

Very good advise here bro. I have found that in most of my games now days killing the rhinos before anything else makes the game go a lot more in my favor. Sure the big bad tanks ARE scary, but all those squads on foot (being able to be shot at by the rest of your troops) is a bigger advantage then killing one pred or something.

Someone else said on another thread here that the game is best played if you go for what is the best capable result possible in all situations. Example being shooting a rhino over a pred with a lascannon. if you hit the pen chance is greater, thus the better chance that you actually did SOMETHING in the shooting phase.

this thread is oooooooold

Op Okay so I'm a long time sister's player (2nd edition) and to be frank its REALLY easy for blood angels to crush sisters' you army unfortunately is not optimized at all to take out sisters. (razorback spam laughes at sisters) sister's excel at the 6-12 inch range thats the range they can divine guidence to have rending rf bolters/and flamers and a MEQ small model count assault army with light vehicles plasy against thierstrength, and the extra eviscorators don't help either. Sisters are such an old dex that sometimes people forget some of their rules which you as a an opponent needs to know. Which may help in some cases.

First of all sisters rhinos only have a single firing point (4th edition codex 1 firing point allows two shots from it)
Second sister's inferno pistols are only ap 2 (not 1 like in curent books)
Third and most important Spirit of the martyr has to be declared at the begining of the phase when the unit targets its. That means your oponent can't choose to use the power after wounds have been rolled they have to at the beggining of CC phase or when a unit elects to fire at them. Sometimes sister's players forget this.
Another important factors is to ensure he is keep track of faith points fairly. We usually use a set of difference or marbles or something to represent faith. He uses one he tosses it of the table so you know how many left. A unit dies he gets an additional

Oh and from the unit count you gave us there is no way he can have 10 faithpoints. You get 1 per faithful unit and 2 per cannoness I count a total of 7. There are ways to get a Free act of faith but he can only add that to the cannoness

Also calypso2ts is wrong about the acts of faith.
Spirit of the Martyr - Invuln Save, OVER squad size (so the fewer models in the unit the easier to pull off)
Divine Guidance - 6's to wound AP 1, UNDER squad size (bigger units do more damage easier)



Now as for specific tactics to use agasinst him.
The basic concept of this sister's army is to use the exorcists as a long range threat to try and cover the advancing rhino squads.
You have two priorities on turn 1 rhinos and exorcists. Now in your army you have a podding dread, my suggestion in this case would be to drop it right behind an exorcist or 2. If there are two together go there. Drop him down and try to take out the tank from rear armor, not to difficult. This may turn your dread into a sacrifical lamb but its worth it because its a credible threat to his army's line and he will have to refocus his efforts to take it out first and foremost. Likely by the seraphim if he's smart as they have mobility and tank killing power. You should probably turbo boost all three speeders at an oblique angle to set them up for turn 2 shots against the rear armor of the exorcists also make sure if possible to place them away from advancing rhino squads. This will force your opponent to use the remaining exorcists against the speeders rather than your dreads. IT will also eliminate any shooting the opponent has over 12 inches. Your dreads first targets should be the rhinos, dont' over kill. If you get a stunned (and he doesnt have armor) or immobilized that is enough for the first turn redirect to the remaining Rhinos. LR should follow the same suit. You want to keep the range as much as possible. You want to accomplish 2 things, you need the sisters to footslog and burn through those faith points. Remember, you want to keep the range open because if the sisters get close you are in trouble. If you have to assault a squad make sure they are weakened first. Do not let them mutually support each other. Also sister's only have T3 so StR 6 instant deaths them. Last but not least its very important to remember in CC all basic sisters have I of 3 you will go first unless they use the passion.

I hope you found this helpful. I''ll gladly follow up if you want

Be careful for squads with the Imagifer upgrade. They can fairly reliably hit the faith roll for faith powers that require rolling under, as well as the ones that require rolling over. Imagine if in your crucial CC you're suddenly fighting S6 Rending sisters with 3+ invulnerables

androcles138 wrote:Be careful for squads with the Imagifer upgrade. They can fairly reliably hit the faith roll for faith powers that require rolling under, as well as the ones that require rolling over. Imagine if in your crucial CC you're suddenly fighting S6 Rending sisters with 3+ invulnerables

Which brings me back to my 1st point.

Regular assault marines still strike before the sisters at either I4 or I5, and if they are within a priest's bubble they are S5 versus T3 so they hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+.

A full sized squad with 7 regular assault marines and 2 meltas has 25 regular attacks in CC + whatever the sergeant is armed with. They should inflict an average of 13.9 wounds on a sisters squad and thus drop an average of 4.6 sisters which might include one of their chainfists.

Assault marines should be the backbone of a BA army. They are great units, and a list with lots of them should haven no problem with sisters.

Don't feel too bad, same thing happened to me at the last tourney I played. I stomped face my first two games then got beat into the ground by somebody playing a hard Sisters list.

First time I'd played it, but wow...yeah...ouch.

Necro.

The question you should be asking yourself is how did you possibly lose to that list.

EDIT: oh wow, necro

calypso2ts wrote:The best chance to 'understand' faith is to download the codex for free from the GW site. Given the WH/DH codex costs nothing now everyone should at least give it a read through.

Here is a breakdown though - Tests of Faith are based on squad size. If a squad has an Imagifier it gets to roll 3d6 and pick 2. This is for the Seraphim mainly, noone takes it in normal squads. What you need to get the Act of Faith can be thought of as when do you 'need' the act....

Spirit of the Martyr - Over squad sizeInvuln
Divine Guidance - 6's to wound AP 1, Save, Under squad size

Those are really the only two you need to know. The other 3 are less used - +2 S, +2 I and Fearless

Edit: For a 9 man AM squad w/ a fist 3 wounds isn't that bad. 16 basic attacks, 8 hits, 5.3 wounds w/ 3.3 unsaved wounds plus Fist, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.84 wounds, 0.5 wounds

Average of 4 wounds - the Invuln tends to mess up peoples math in combat as well since a PF isnt an autokill. On the other hand, even if it is not worth it point wise...it is never a good idea to let 3 Eviscerators with 7 attacks hitting on 3+ and 3 attacks hitting on 4+ with rerolls to hit to come through. I can definitely see that wiping a squad...

fixed that rule error for you. aaaand the other one also.

a celestian squad kitted out to do dmg can be a scary thing

I definitely swapped the faith for over/under but a Canoness and a Priest hit on a 4+ (that is the 7 on a 4+) while the VSS of the celestian squad hits on a 3+...

Immoblizing enough transports and keeping units close enough to support each other. Once you get Sisters into melee they start having serious problems.

I'm not fond of that retinue in the original list. Too expensive, too fragile. Eviserators aren't that good, and the squad can take major damage first. Also, he's got no way to charge from a moving vehicle.

Grey Templar wrote:Frankly, i don't see why you had trouble.

30 assault marines with FNP should kill sisters pretty quick and those AC dreds should pop those rhinos pretty quick.

AP1 Flamers tend to negate FNP.

they only become rending which isn't super scary.

Grey Templar wrote:they only become rending which isn't super scary.

They become AP1. No armor save, no cover save, no FNP, no WBB. Only invuls.