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I could say the same thing about anything..

For example, Vendettas simply suck against horde Orks.

I could say the same thing about anything..

For example, Vendettas simply suck against horde Orks.

Right, but you seem to have missed my main point. In my first post I listed three reasons why I feel that Tyrannids have a hard time as newer stuff comes out. I did preface this with the fact that I personally think they are very competitive.

The post you responded to was my rebuttal to someone who pointed out that Jaws was no big deal. To which I was saying to certain armies it is not only a big deal, but a huge deal. Is it ZOMG brokenz? No. Is it tough to overcome a lynchpin model like a Tervigon getting insta dropped on a ld10 psychic test and a 3+....yes.

Don't be so quick to twist something I'm saying without context please.

Good point JGrand. Actually, I was thinking it was "crueler" in a sense because not only did it remove opponents from play, it also gave you additional models to kill their other models with. And it works a lot better against fast armies than JotWW does. It just seems like more of a slap in the face to say "Oops, now your autarch is a spawn. It charges into your unit of dire avengers and eats them to pieces. Yummy" And of course with Daemons, you need the 6" range, but there is no psychic test-just a straight up shooting attack. And with my daemon princes having BS5, well, I tend to get that attack off pretty often. "You have Eldrad? Now you have Spawn-Eldrad!"

That's just what I meant by being crueler. It isn't better, but it's far more insulting. Sorry that I wasn't clear about it before. Of course, I'm not sure which is funnier-turning a god like the Nightbringer into a gibbering idiot that attacks his own metal goons...or watching him fall into a big hole and disappear because, as a god, he can't climb out.


deleted part for a double post

We should start a collection to buy that kid a shift key. And maybe a spellchecker.

Sure it is.

Don't take a tervigon.

Seriously, why do you think you absolutely MUST HAVE a lot of monstrous creatures in order to have a competitive list? Ripper Swarms can offer 36 spinefist shots which can deep strike for a mere ~150 points and a single slot (about twelve of them will hit. That's enough to put the fear of "I hope my armor save holds" in any unit that isn't a terminator squad). Raveners can deep strike and offer 3 S5 hits apiece (great against side and rear armor of transports). Thropes offer an S10 AP1 lance attack and can also deep strike, and when they aren't lancing they offer a good strength AP3 blast. Spore Mines offer a very cheap amount of large blasts which can devastate most horde armies. Genestealers offer a large amount of cheap, infiltrating rending attacks and are fleet and move through cover. Warriors offer cheap synapse while also still having the ability to do light anti-tank with venom cannons. Ymgarl genestealers offer a high amount of adaptability for just a single unit. The Tyranid Prime is a very effective cheap HQ unit, one of the best cheap HQ units in the game and fully capable of dueling with a kitted out Captain and winning while being cheaper and having a more direct effect on its army (due to Synapse).

You don't need a monstrous creature based army to succeed. Or even a single monstrous creature, if you build your list right.

Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

Melissia wrote:Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

I agree.

I like to whine a lot about them, but really the FAQ is the biggesting problem.
(SitW about blots out the astronomicon making warp travel and communication hazardous and unreliable--unless you are in a vehicle. Who is in space while not embarked?!?)
They are at something of a disadvantage in such a mech-friendly game, but it is not all that.

My regular opponents are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Imperial Guard and I do well enough in that I rarely lose.
We do tie a lot more than seems likely, though.

The tyranid FAQ has 2 of the worst mistakes I can think of, the SiTW rule and the tyranid prime rule. They are both terrible.

Maybe, but I've already seen at least one tourney where those two rules are ignored.

Sure it is.

Don't take a tervigon.

Seriously, why do you think you absolutely MUST HAVE a lot of monstrous creatures in order to have a competitive list? Ripper Swarms can offer 36 spinefist shots which can deep strike for a mere ~150 points and a single slot (about twelve of them will hit. That's enough to put the fear of "I hope my armor save holds" in any unit that isn't a terminator squad). Raveners can deep strike and offer 3 S5 hits apiece (great against side and rear armor of transports). Thropes offer an S10 AP1 lance attack and can also deep strike, and when they aren't lancing they offer a good strength AP3 blast. Spore Mines offer a very cheap amount of large blasts which can devastate most horde armies. Genestealers offer a large amount of cheap, infiltrating rending attacks and are fleet and move through cover. Warriors offer cheap synapse while also still having the ability to do light anti-tank with venom cannons. Ymgarl genestealers offer a high amount of adaptability for just a single unit. The Tyranid Prime is a very effective cheap HQ unit, one of the best cheap HQ units in the game and fully capable of dueling with a kitted out Captain and winning while being cheaper and having a more direct effect on its army (due to Synapse).

You don't need a monstrous creature based army to succeed. Or even a single monstrous creature, if you build your list right.

Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

I'm assuming you don't play competitive Nids. The Tervigon is a big piece of a successful list. I'm not saying they are a "must have" but they are pretty amazing. Hive Guard are the same way. If you want reliable ranged anti tank they are the only option. Both of these are pretty standard staples in a competitive Tyrannid take all comers list. These are hit very, very hard by jaws and poisoned attacks. That was my point. You can build without them, but I prefer to make take all comers lists. Counter picking is easy. I refuse to make a new list just to play a certain person. I think most people are like this.

Still, JoTWW was only one part of my post. But like I said, go back and read them. You obviously missed the point. I never claimed Nids were weak. In fact, they are one of the most difficult opponents for me. Good Nid lists that employ synergy and tactics are very viable. I was stating the reasons I think they suffer a bit and have been hit by newer codices. I still think they are one of the top armies ATM.

No, I don't think YOU play competitive nids. You play what you THINK is a competitive nid list, but you are relying too much on MCs and not utilizing the full strength of the codex.

Nidzilla is a leftover from 4th edition that still taints the minds of many 'nid players.

No, I don't think YOU play competitive nids. You play waht you THINK is a competitive nid list, but you are relying too much on MCs and not utilizing the full strength of the codex.

I don't, but I play against them plenty. I have seen every unit in the dex used. But, if you look at TAKE ALL COMERS lists, most feature the tervigon and hive guard to some capacity. Tournament Nids do the same. I did earlier say that there isn't really a "spam me" at each FOC so I do admit that there are plenty of builds. You can go without a Tervigon. However, a T6 6 wound scoring troop choice who can crap out other troop choices and cast FNP for 200 points is a good unit. Many would say a very, very good unit. If you run a line of Gargoyles in front of your army and cast Catalyst on them, you gain a durable cover save for a standard forward moving Nid list. You can go without this, but it's one of the most effective tactics I've seen.

As for Hive Guard...good luck taking none of them. Zoenthropes are good in a drop pod as a way to take out high armored units. They usually die after one shooting round because of their close range. Not only that, they are horrible against armies with strong psychic defense. Tyrannofexes have 2 shots of st 10. The problem is that with BS 3 you hit one a turn. If your target is in cover you have a low chance to do anything from the get go. For close to 300 points it doesn't fit in all lists. Hive Guard are almost essential.

I don't know about you, but I play "take all comers" lists. Sure, a Nid player can shelve their standard build every time they play Wolves, but where is the skill in that? Counterpicking is lame. Talk to competitive Nid players and they will agree that the Tervigon and Hive Guard are at the top of the list. Now, am I saying Nids are bad? For the millionth time no. They are facing some adversity based on some of the newer stuff. Jaws is just one aspect of this. They can overcome, it's just not as easy.

I have seen some of your posts on here and have to ask, why are you so bristly and argumentative? If you have actually read my posts instead of jumping on one small part of them you shouldn't have had a problem with what I'm saying. I don't know why some people feel a need to prove themselves constantly and come off so angry. I hope you aren't like that in real life because that would be really sad.

Because it's fun.

If a person wants to play nidzilla, then fine, they can play nidzilla. But nidzilla has always had certain weaknesses. ALWAYS. Neither the space wolf codex, nor fifth edition, has changed this.

I wasn't aware Tervigons were 0-1.

Oh wait, they aren't.

Yeah but i collect nids for the monstrus critters , like you collect Bood Angels for flying terminators. i love the fluff and idea of mc. this isnt me telling you what to do im just saying gw has forsaken tyranid mc by attempting to change dimensions of the game. You can use the stuff i said i wouldn't but it isnt flexible and i love the the way people tell me im a bad player because i dont find them flexible then give me a single really complex way to use it. eg. i was told you can accuratly pod a fex with the lictor homing beacon then onslaught it into a unit.
thats show the length you have to go to ,to use it
1)first i have to get a lictor on the board within assault range of the enemy
2)it has to survive a turn for the ability to work and drop before the fex
3)then i have to have a terrvigon within its power range
4)succsessfully cast onslaught(which is hard with all the phycic hoods)

this seem a little too difficult and uses a huge amount of the army to make the unit viable. i cant find synergy in the units i vetoed

Because it's fun.

If a person wants to play nidzilla, then fine, they can play nidzilla. But nidzilla has always had certain weaknesses. ALWAYS. Neither the space wolf codex, nor fifth edition, has changed this.

Ok, to each their own. Just interesting "netiquette" .

My friend runs a 1500 point list of:

Tyrannid Prime
4-5 Warriors (close combat oriented)
1 Tervigon
12 or so Supergaunts
2x 2-3 Hivegaurd
1 spore pod of Zoenthropes
2 Trygon Primes
12+ Gargoyles

This is off the top of my head. He runs plenty of different lists as he likes to try all of the stuff, but if you pressed him to make one list, this would be what it is based on. The Gargoyle wall which gains FNP from the Tervigon's catalyst gives cover to the rest of the army and mitigates the lack of transports and light saves. The Hive Guard pop light transports so the CC guys have targets. The Primes are great disruption and the Zoey's are there to take out AV 14 or some tough stuff.

This is not "Nidzilla". However, Jaws and poisoned weapons will hurt this list a lot. This build isn't the be all to end all, but it's a good balanced list. Just again pointing out that some of the newer armies have some easy answers to the better Tyrannid stuff. I still think they are very competitive and hate when people say they suck.

I can attest to the strength of the list Jgrand posted. It's a solid synergy, and one of the best single Tyranid builds I've seen. It's also not "Nidzilla" - it relies on much more than that, including a steady stream of scoring troops and sheer numbers.

Sure, the 'Nids codex is not SUPER diverse, and can't compete with the diversity of some 5E codices, which basically allow you 3-4 different serious tourney builds (ie Blood Angels), but if built correctly, 'Nids are nothing to sneeze at.

But thats the point yes they can be competative but only with 1 build. Its not an army in a tourney its a list

Personally, I like to make use of cover myself. Stops your troops getting minced like when they are out in the open.

And come on. They are only Dark Eldar. Give them a stern look and they fall over dead.

I can attest to the strength of the list Jgrand posted. It's a solid synergy, and one of the best single Tyranid builds I've seen. It's also not "Nidzilla" - it relies on much more than that, including a steady stream of scoring troops and sheer numbers.

Sure, the 'Nids codex is not SUPER diverse, and can't compete with the diversity of some 5E codices, which basically allow you 3-4 different serious tourney builds (ie Blood Angels), but if built correctly, 'Nids are nothing to sneeze at.

But thats the point yes they can be competative but only with 1 build. Its not an army in a tourney its a list

I was just posting a competitive build. I believe that there are many ways to run competitive Nids. The strength of the list is that they do have a few solid troop choices. The only "must take" in my opinion are the Hive Guard. The Tervigon comes close though.

There is more than 1 competitive nid build out there. I have seen 304 builds that have worked great and are very competitive. Just depends on how you want to play them.

Nurglitch wrote:We should start a collection to buy that kid a shift key. And maybe a spellchecker.

I already linked him to a free one. All he has to do is cut, copy, and paste. How hard is that?

DarknessEternal wrote:I wasn't aware Tervigons were 0-1.

Oh wait, they aren't.

They're not. But neither are Rune Priests with JotWW.

The biggest kick in the pants is not only do Space Wolves psykers outrange any other psyker (24" JotWW, infinite range lightning, etc), this puts them easily out of the range of SitW, so Nids psychic defense is rendered pretty useless. Coupled with psykers in transports being immune to SitW, Nid psychic defense really is useless.

Don't base your ideas of certain troops off of one battle with what's basically your 'anti army'. Part of playing the game is realizing that you have to put out an army that's going to be a pain in the ass for your competition. What may not work for a battle against DE (for example, Carnifex for this last battle) will be massive against an army like CSM.

Remember that you should learn from your encounters on how to better use your squads and the tactics available to you. However, if you feel like some of the squads aren't to your liking I'm sure someone will take them off your hands lol

Manchu wrote:@royal house: Please post in complete sentences, pay more attention to correct spelling, and use punctuation. Also, posting in allcaps tends to convey rudeness. Please review the DakkaDakka rules via the link in my signature.

You know, I don't mean to be disagreeable, but he's really not that bad. He's being polite, and is generally pretty organized.

I've read much worse on here before.

royal house wrote:

I played my first game against dark eldar I was running monstrous nids list 2 trygons running , 2 dakka fex(no comment please i know their over priced but i like em) 3 tervigons , deathstar/ and gaunts and hive gaurd.

If you like Nidzilla army, cover them with Venomthrope or Spore (Spore is M.C too you know. )
I haven't have the chance to test out my nids against D.E, but from what I know:
1)Their skimmer can cross anything and cause wound
2)Most of their weapon are poisoned.
3)They have a HQ that can instant-kill any I.C and able to regen.

Everytime when I see a transport with loaded troops, my priority is to pop it open ASAP and let my gaunts finish them off in 1 turn, or send the gaunts blocking its way if it's in a tight corner.
One thing about playing nids is target saturation. You want to overwhelm your opponent with as many model as possible.
Another way is to divert your army into 2 category, covering and flanking.
Example: 15 gants with devourer, in weapon range are hiding behing a cover, facing 15 ork boyz, while another 20 gaunts with furious charge and poison attack ready to flank them in next turn. Depend on your opponent, he/she would be need to finish 1 of the army, otherwise it would lose too many boyz and getting the chance to fall back and get sweep.

In your case of versus D.E, I would use Flyrant with H.V.C, old adversary, bonesword and whip to charge in with some gargoyles for cover save.
Just my 2 cents.

Theres good points there but
1) I may just have mean opponent but spores are just kill points, t6 and 3 wounds is just too easy target for bolters ect.
2) The flying attacks are not good , each bike inflicting d3 s4 ap- hits is bad and if you upgrade them to d6 s6 ap- hit you have a really expensive t4 sv5+ unit.
3) regen im not sure but they do have a power weapon which inflicts instant death, which is only strength 3 and no poisin on it.

I did try to shoot down raider but what long range accurate anti-tank do nids have .Plus their vehicles can get inv saves and night fighting rule thing.

On the bright side the wyche special character sucks so bad, yeah she has a bucket load off attacks but she's strength three with no posin or combat drugs. =)

Im going to try running a warrior heavy list again and I will post the results soon.

Far as I know, you can't cover a MC with a Venomthrope.

Its hard with the model, certainly, but its rules work just fine for that purpose.

Read the rules for Venomthropes. The Venomthrope and any friendly unit within 6" can gain a Cv5+ from its Spore Cloud. Additionally the Venomthrope and any friendly unit gain defensive grenades and any unit assaulting them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Nurglitch wrote:Read the rules for Venomthropes. The Venomthrope and any friendly unit within 6" can gain a Cv5+ from its Spore Cloud. Additionally the Venomthrope and any friendly unit gain defensive grenades and any unit assaulting them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Interesting, I was under the impression it functioned like area terrain.

Must be the dangerous terrain test it forces messing with my brain.

Thanks for the clarification.