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Havocks in general are overcosted, both in absolute terms (what you get for the points), relative terms with regards to the Chaos codex (Oblits!), and relative to other similar units (Long fangs...)

I think that if you play in a mech heavy environment, especially one with lots of eldar or IG skimmers, the AC becomes substantially better. I disagree with Ailaros on the utility of slowing down transports, on the other hand I usually do it with dirt cheap IG, not pretty expensive Chaos.

On a more general note, when you play your first tournament play the army you know the best. Be comfortable and confident. You might lose. You might lose a lot. But taking a list that you're not fluent in won't help that, and will probably hurt it. Learn what works, and what doesn't. tournaments are full of people that win more than they lose with units that are mostly dismissed online.

Thanks guys

Sanctjud:

Or just put him on Ignore and continue with the discussion. After all, what works for one player should work for another.

So true

I say just go with Oblits- more bang for your buck, and more versatility.

Nurglitch wrote:Sanctjud:

Or just put him on Ignore and continue with the discussion. After all, what works for one player should work for another.

I'm not sure that's always true. (and this may be a good topic for our secret project).

Four Autocannons are going to be more reliable for taking down a Rhino. Four Lascannons is better than three, especially if there's more than one body carrying each.

In terms of three Lascannons vs four Autocannons, glancing or penetrating AV12:

Lascannons
3x(4/6)*(3/6) or (1/6) = 0.33 or 0.99

Shaken or Stunned = 0.22+0.33 = 0.55
Weapon Destroyed = 0.055+0.165 = 0.22
Immobilized = 0.055+0.165 = 0.22
Wrecked = 0.165 = 0.17
Asplode = 0.165 = 0.17

Autocannons
8x(4/6)*(1/6) or (1/6) =0.88 or 0.88

Shaken or Stunned = 0.88
Weapon Destroyed = 0.29
Immobilized = 0.29
Wrecked = 0.15
Asplode = 0.15

More dice means more opportunity to frig up the AV12- vehicle, if you have to shoot it in the face instead of the ass.

The same Autocannons vs Lascannon on Long Fang Infantry:

8x(4/6)*(5/6)*(2/6) = 1.48

3x(4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) = 1.11

If you want to take on light armor, autos are great. Land raiders or monoliths? Not so much.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:If you want to take on light armor, autos are great. Land raiders or monoliths? Not so much.

OTOH, it's not like lascannons eat AV14 for dinner.

Eh, I see no reason to use AC's.

Unless they turn into S6 AP5 Heavy 9 That would make me want to use them.

Personally, I only use Havoc Squads for Missle spam...Or plasma cannon EDIT: nvm, I was thinking of loyalists. I can't even take plasmacannons spam...Either one is fine. Heavy bolters, flamers and autocannons are basically useless, IMO. I'm ambivalent about lascannons. They have practical use, but they're still "The Gun of Many Ones"

A Lascannon has twice the change of destroying a Land Raider as a Melta Gun over 6".

Let's compare four Missile Launchers at AV12, glancing or penetrating:

4x(4/6)*(1/6) or (2/6) =0.44 or 0.88

Shaken or Stunned = 0.15 + 0.29 = 0.44
Weapon Destroyed = 0.07+0.146 = 0.22
Immobilized = 0.07+0.146 = 0.22
Wrecked = 0.146 = 0.15
Asplode = 0.146 = 0.15

Hmm, Autocannon wins again.

Yeah, but you're still doing AV 12... although, that is the majority. If the OP could post a list, so we can see how these havocs fit into the equation?

right..two ticks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord bike mos demon weapon mbs

sorc bike mos lash mbs

noise marines, 6, rhino bm sonics on squaad, champ has ds sonic mbs pw, rhino has demonic possesion
*3

bikes, 5, champ fist, meltas on squad, 2, ios
*2 (run with lord and sorc for wounds and at)

all extra points go into 5 man havoc squads with 4 ac no rhino, (not sure how many sos, dont have the list in front of me) (no rhino but i sit them still and shoot the crap out of suff, concentrating on transports and mc's, i usually dont get them shot at because everyone i play against seems to be worried about the 2 hqs and ten bikers screaming towards them...)

AV10

Autocannon
8x(4/6)*(1/6) or (3/6) = 0.88 or 2.67

Shaken or Stunned = 0.586+0.89 = 1.48
Weapon Destroyed = 0.146+0.445 = 0.591
Immobilized = 0.146+0.445 = 0.591
Wrecked = 0.445 = 0.45
Asplode = 0.445 = 0.45

Missile Launcher
4x(4/6)* (1/6) or (4/6) = 0.444 or 1.777

Shaken or Stunned = 0.296+0.592 = 0.89
Weapon Destroyed = 0.074+0.296 = 0.37
Immobilized = 0.074+0.296 = 0.37
Wrecked = 0.296 = 0.30
Asplode = 0.296 = 0.30

Lascannon
3x(4/6)*(1/6) or (5/6) = 0.33 or 1.67

Shaken or Stunned = 0.22+0.555 = 0.78
Weapon Destroyed = 0.055+0.278 = 0.33
Immobilized = 0.055+0.278 = 0.33
Wrecked = 0.278 = 0.28
Asplode = 0.278 = 0.28

AV11

Autocannon
8x(4/6)*(1/6) or (2/6) = 0.88 or 1.77

Shaken or Stunned = 0.586+0.59 = 1.17
Weapon Destroyed = 0.146+0.295 = 0.44
Immobilized = 0.146+0.295 = 0.44
Wrecked = 0.295 = 0.30
Asplode = 0.295 = 0.30

Missile Launcher
4x(4/6)* (1/6) or (3/6) = 0.444 or 1.33

Shaken or Stunned = 0.296+0.443 = 0.89
Weapon Destroyed = 0.074+0.221 = 0.30
Immobilized = 0.074+0.221 = 0.30
Wrecked = 0.221 = 0.22
Asplode = 0.221 = 0.22

Lascannon
3x(4/6)*(1/6) or (4/6) = 0.33 or 1.33

Shaken or Stunned = 0.22+0.555 = 0.78
Weapon Destroyed = 0.055+0.278 = 0.33
Immobilized = 0.055+0.278 = 0.33
Wrecked = 0.22 = 0.22
Asplode = 0.22 = 0.22

Actually that's kind of interesting. 105 points of Lascannons do the same work as 80 points of Missile Launchers in the AV11 department. Again, Autocannons win though.

mhm thats why ive used them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i was just wondering if there was any other weapons i should consider?

Lascannons. They're good against AV13 & AV14. Stopping a Land Raider close to home is important.

Plasma Guns. They're like short-ranged Autocannons.

sweet thanks