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Hey ive been using autocannons for a long time now on havoc squads,whats the word on them, i need more info on them b4 i start tournies... THNX any yhelp appreciated

junk. don't. there are a few situations where they are good but not many. ap too high, rate of fire too low. you're chaos fight up close.

yeah i run (in 1750) two bikers, 5man 2 melta fist with powerfist, and ios.they ride with a lord with demon weapon mos bike mbs, and a sorc lash mos bike mbs, 3 squads noise with sb's champ ds and bm, rhino dp, thn the rest of the points is unrhinoed squads of 5 havocs with ac, theyre cheap and provide the strength 7 dakka i need to take out he necrons and nids i frequenly see

glad its working. noise marine armies cant rely on meltas like undivided armies can. autocannons might be ok then. dont recommend blastmasters. overpriced.

k, ill try without thm, if i was to swith to a different weapon for the havocs what would you suggest, im not going to be going up agaisnt only the armies im used to in a tourny so i need some advice ?

assault havocs with meltas. or obliterators.
I have a cult of slaanesh that goes
2 demon princes mark/lash/wings
4 noise marine squads doom siren sonic blasters
2 havoc squads 4 lascannons icon of chaos undivided.
thats for 2000 points. at 1500 lascannons are probably too expensive for havocs. maybe a pair of tri las predators. idk.

I think that the CSM codex suffers from almost all of their heavy weapons being just a bit more expensive than the 5th edition books and it puts them just above the price of being competative. In the Blood angels and Space Wolves books the missile launcher in a Dev/Long Fang squad is 10pts rather than the 20 you pay for an auto-cannon or missile launcher. 4 meltas in a 5 man squad for only 10pts each is quite a bit more attractive. For a bit more, you could change the Havocs for Chosen and then outflank with 5 meltas. This could save your heavy spots more templates to make better use of Lash, like a vindicator, obliterator, or defiler.

agree about 5th ed heavy weapon prices.

yes but i am unlikely to switch codexes... lolz so im still looking for other options that would work with my list, i mean the melta las is good but yeah...., thanks anyway

anything else you can contribute would be much appreciated

AC's are good with respect to the heavy weapons you could get on havocs.
They are wonderful transport openers.

In addition, you do fight up close, but being able to open up transports before you commit your front line can save you a squad.
There are faster armies: with the reach, medium strength, and better rate of fire you can take that away from them. Though they are reliant on terrain and local meta to get the most out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please look in the Oblits vs. Havocs thread for more info.

I have had success with CSMs with AC/MG opening transports in turn 1 + 2.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:junk. don't. there are a few situations where they are good but not many. ap too high, rate of fire too low. you're chaos fight up close.

This.

With a couple of narrow exceptions, autocannons are really only useful at slightly slowing down your opponent if they play a mech army.

Given that you WANT them close, why would you want to slow them down?


Also, given the cost:crappiness ratio of havocs, why even take any? Why not bikes or termicide or something?

As much as I would love to jump on the havoc bashing bandwagon... the love/hate ratio for them swings around wierdly week to week.

I do agree with alot of the bashing here, but if you want to see the opposite side of the coin, (as I suggested) lookin the Havocs vs. Oblits thread...there is some good lovin' for havocs there.

Otherwise, I'd just suggest MOAR TROOPS!

ACs are weird; they are generally considered one of the best anti-light/Med-tank weapons you can buy... unless that is there are better choices in your army.

In their niche ACs are better than lascannons(it is the extra shots that grant this); they are more tactically flexible than heavy bolters(multiple high-str shots mean they are good for hordes and anti-AV). But in Havoc squads and the like missile launchers are better(Higher Str and Flexibility and the BS4 means that you will hit about as often as with a BS3 AC)

It mostly comes down to personal preference but for Marines(of any Variety) Missile launchers are far superior and generally the Same cost.

The Defiler should exchange it's autocannon for another CCW(you are shooting the Battlecannon, or running to get into assault)

Chaos Space marine Squads should have the second Special weapon(because they should be moving every turn, and trying to get into assault)

Chaos dreads should have either Lascannon/Missile launcher, or Pair of DCCWs, or DCCW+Lascannon, Plasma Cannon, or Multi-melta.

Reaper ACs on Chaos Termies are over-costed and thus kinda Garbage (they should either be suicide-squads, or assault bullies, and they cannot assault after firing the Reaper).

So really in Chaos marines the Only Place ACs fit is Havocs(where the ML is a better choice), and Predators(because the T-L Lascannon is overcosted).

With bs4 missile launchers are certainly superior. It's the IG that have resurrected autocannons. on bs3 they are better and cheaper. I do however love the idea of autocannon CSM, and would probably just use them for the cool factor.

Missile launchers trump in versatility anytime. Take them for the same points!

Not anymore. Eight shots at s8 used to be one of the best tank-killers you could get, but without veteran powers, it just doesn't work anymore.

Missile launchers are my recommendation, but I don't run havocs so take it with a grain of salt.

i realise that ac are not particulaly versatile but i dont see the need for versatile weapons in a jack of all trades army anyway, i find myself relying on their transport popping capability, and their anti mc abilities as well

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:junk. don't. there are a few situations where they are good but not many. ap too high, rate of fire too low. you're chaos fight up close.

This.

With a couple of narrow exceptions, autocannons are really only useful at slightly slowing down your opponent if they play a mech army.

Given that you WANT them close, why would you want to slow them down?


Also, given the cost:crappiness ratio of havocs, why even take any? Why not bikes or termicide or something?

I want them close on my terms. When you destroy their mobility, you can more likely engage them where you want. And wow, I have found the havoks to be useful in general and murderous against tyranids.

but throwing them out of their bawkes does virtually nothing to their mobility, much less "destroy" it.

And yeah, a 4-ML brigade would probably put the hurt down on most MCs, but there are lots of ways to do that with chaos that are also better at non-MCs at the same time.

You are right. What was I thinking. I'll get back to playing my twin lash plaguezerk oblit list on minimum terrain borads. It will give my brain a rest from having to think of tictacs and I can enjoy the game.

Normally, I don't run havocs- many options just fit better for what they do. For instance oblits, vindicators, or chosen if you run assault waepons.

Ailaros wrote:but throwing them out of their bawkes does virtually nothing to their mobility, much less "destroy" it.

And yeah, a 4-ML brigade would probably put the hurt down on most MCs, but there are lots of ways to do that with chaos that are also better at non-MCs at the same time.

What exactly would be better at non-MCs than a missile launcher?

4 BS4 Missiles launched at most MCs should be 2-3 Wounds.

4 BS4 Missiles Launched at AV10-12 Should be 2-3 Damage results, at least 1 of them being a Pen, and AV 13
1-2 damage results(1 might be a Pen).

4 BS4 Missiles launched at a troops squad should be at least 6-8 models hit.

Mentat wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:junk. don't. there are a few situations where they are good but not many. ap too high, rate of fire too low. you're chaos fight up close.

This.

With a couple of narrow exceptions, autocannons are really only useful at slightly slowing down your opponent if they play a mech army.

Given that you WANT them close, why would you want to slow them down?


Also, given the cost:crappiness ratio of havocs, why even take any? Why not bikes or termicide or something?

I want them close on my terms. When you destroy their mobility, you can more likely engage them where you want. And wow, I have found the havoks to be useful in general and murderous against tyranids.

if you buy a squad of havocs and use them to blow up your opponent's rides, that's 2-300 points that are not in the close quarters fight, wherever it happens, since havocs have to stand still to do their job. so if your havoc squad keeps an opponent's 2-300 point squad out of the fight, you didn't gain anything. it makes more sense to buy a normal csm squad or some variant thereof and just melt them up close. that way you blast the rhino and charge them at the same time. the location of the fight doesn't matter that much, except with respect to the objectives. given that as the chaos player you ought to be *winning* those fights I don't see this as much of an issue. the only other thing that matters about the location is concentration of forces. since you have to keep your own guys out of the fight in order to keep their guys out of the fight if you go with the havocs, again you're not making any progress.

take close combat guys, spam melta guns. havocs are a complex solution to a simple problem. AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but if you just have to run havocs take missile launchers or lascannons, since they are useful against monstrous creatures, but autocannons are not.

Autocannons can be good when on a rhino. Autocannons aren't bad, it's just theres always something better you can take. But with a rhino it's either a bolter or this. It's situational really, but each 1 can be relied on each game to crack a transport.
But on other vehicles or havocs, this is usually a poor choice.

for every army there is one and only one best way to handle a given situation. the sum of all the situations you're likely to encounter, and the compromise between the best way to handle any one of them determines the right way to build the army. all the other ways are wrong. it's not a game of preferences. the numbers are available for anyone to look at.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
if you buy a squad of havocs and use them to blow up your opponent's rides, that's 2-300 points that are not in the close quarters fight, wherever it happens, since havocs have to stand still to do their job. so if your havoc squad keeps an opponent's 2-300 point squad out of the fight, you didn't gain anything. it makes more sense to buy a normal csm squad or some variant thereof and just melt them up close. that way you blast the rhino and charge them at the same time. the location of the fight doesn't matter that much, except with respect to the objectives. given that as the chaos player you ought to be *winning* those fights I don't see this as much of an issue. the only other thing that matters about the location is concentration of forces. since you have to keep your own guys out of the fight in order to keep their guys out of the fight if you go with the havocs, again you're not making any progress.

take close combat guys, spam melta guns. havocs are a complex solution to a simple problem. AF

I dont use havok squads, my post above was (mistakenly) referring to havok launchers. I have an autocannon and meltagun in each CSM squad. I normally use the meltas on land raiders. The location of the fight does matter because i can often achieve local numerical superiority and leave some of the enemy units running to catch up. "Since I am chaos" doesnt help me win assaults against even numbers of Blood Angels. (well... until I pop the sanguinary priest with a hidden power fist)

edit: last game I did try a havok squad outfitted just like my CSMs except they had 4 heavy bolters. I knew I was fighting orks and wanted to try that out. They did really well with 12 36"range kill orks on a 3+ shots. What is nice about havoks is they as as good in assault as normal CSMs. Also you could outfit them with specials if you don't want to infiltrate or outflank a chosen squad or if you want something else in the elite slots.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:for every army there is one and only one best way to handle a given situation. the sum of all the situations you're likely to encounter, and the compromise between the best way to handle any one of them determines the right way to build the army. all the other ways are wrong. it's not a game of preferences. the numbers are available for anyone to look at.

Well luckily there is also skill involved, so I can play my sub-standard list instead of having to take a boring cookie cutter list to win.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:for every army there is one and only one best way to handle a given situation. the sum of all the situations you're likely to encounter, and the compromise between the best way to handle any one of them determines the right way to build the army. all the other ways are wrong. it's not a game of preferences. the numbers are available for anyone to look at.

Wow, with an attitude like that I don't know how long you could play this game without losing your mind to monotony. Or you end up doing nothing but posting in complaint threads about the latest flavor of the day being OP against your last months flavor army.

Guys, give up.
Just accept that's the way AF rolls and move on and mind other things. Seriously.

Havocs [or anything else we could talk about] don't work well for him ( or maybe he's just theoryhammering it so he actually doesn't know) but it doesn't mean it won't work well for others.

He's pushing his way of winning; the key word is of course 'his'.

Viper217 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:for every army there is one and only one best way to handle a given situation. the sum of all the situations you're likely to encounter, and the compromise between the best way to handle any one of them determines the right way to build the army. all the other ways are wrong. it's not a game of preferences. the numbers are available for anyone to look at.

Wow, with an attitude like that I don't know how long you could play this game without losing your mind to monotony. Or you end up doing nothing but posting in complaint threads about the latest flavor of the day being OP against your last months flavor army.

the challenge is discovering what that way is. Your opponents are always changing so the requirements of your army always change too. Other than that I don't know what you're talking about