primarch pity?

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**Flying Pooo**

Phototoxin wrote:There is no forgiveness, there is no respite...

Exactly kill the Heretic bastards

**Necroagogo**

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Really? i didnt feel that mortarion was particularly evil. And the situation of his turning to chaos seemed to have the least free will of any of the Chaos primarchs.

Aye, I probably didn't express myself clearly. I meant that I don't see any of the 'heroic/tragic' thing with him. His turning to Chaos seems an off-stage affair (in the HH books so far, anyway). No motives to pity or censure. Maybe there'll be more to come in future books.

**Melissia**

Most of them? Hell no. Magnus? Maybe, but he was still an arrogant idiot for what he did. Fulgrim? At least he's still fighting the daemon in him, even if he gave in before he realized it.

**ChaosGalvatron**

Necroagogo wrote:
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Really? i didnt feel that mortarion was particularly evil. And the situation of his turning to chaos seemed to have the least free will of any of the Chaos primarchs.

Aye, I probably didn't express myself clearly. I meant that I don't see any of the 'heroic/tragic' thing with him. His turning to Chaos seems an off-stage affair (in the HH books so far, anyway). No motives to pity or censure. Maybe there'll be more to come in future books.

Mortarion does seem like someone forgot he was on the list of chaos primarchs. It also seems unlike Nurgle "supposed to love all his children" that he gave the death guard such a choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Most of them? Hell no. Magnus? Maybe, but he was still an arrogant idiot for what he did. Fulgrim? At least he's still fighting the daemon in him, even if he gave in before he realized it.

I liked this about Thousand Sons. They were a bunch of arrogant SOB's who thought they knew better than everyone else about the warp and got shown to be nothing more than pawns.

**Alpharius**

That's pretty much anyone who sets up shop with Chaos in the 40K galaxy...

**Melchiour**

I don't feel sorry for any of them. They played into the hands of chaos. Chaos and evil thrive on pride, ambition, over confidence and the like. They all had flaws that Chaos used against them, to me that was kind of the point.

**AgeOfEgos**

Well...I think Mortarion is going to get another book/story. The old fluff had him 'joining' Horus but not giving in completely to chaos. Only on the way to Terra, when their ship was attacked in the Warp by Nurgle....then Mortarion gave himself over heart/soul to Nurgle (In exchange for their safe passage/lives).

This is also one of the reasons that the Death Guard actually had begun to change upon their arrival at the Siege of Terra.

Necroagogo wrote:
AgeOfEgos wrote:I wish they would have simply made a few of the Primarchs....evil rather than give them all a story revolving around "It is always with the best intentions that the worst work is done".

I agree with this pretty much, except for Mortarion. I can't see any redeeming features with him at all. If I've missed something, please set me straight!

**Samus_aran115**

Eh. Sort of. Kor Phaeron really started the whole heresy...That was a his name..I think..

Without him, the heresy would've never happened. I feel the most pity for Magnus though.....That book almost broke my heart. Favored son? Guess not :(

**eledamris**

I feel sorry for Horus, because I liked him initially. Probably something to do with Dan Abnett.
I don't really feel sorry for Magnus, because I hate Graham McNeill. Ditto on Fulgrim.
I can kinda get behind Angron, but not really. I don't really know enough about his past beyond the short story.
I respect Alpharius/Omegon because they made a truly hard decision. Again... Abnett.

**ChaosGalvatron**

Some of those primarchs seem pretty gullible, a few visions from a daemon or a xenos device and suddenly they are betraying everything they stood for.

**Ma55ter_fett**

demonicjapsel wrote:Magnus is the only one that deserves pity.

True, I think he got screwed over the hardest by his "brothers."

**Pilau Rice**

AgeOfEgos wrote:This is also one of the reasons that the Death Guard actually had begun to change upon their arrival at the Siege of Terra.

It is, or was, the reason, depending on how the series goes. The Collected Visions articles which the Horus Heresy seems to be following, for better or worse, seems to stay close to the Index Astartes article on the Death Guard.

A presence in the Immaterium answered, as though it had been waiting all along. In the depths of the warp, the Great God Nurgle, Lord of Decay and Father of Disease, called that debt and accepted Mortarion and the Death Guard Legion as his own.

What emerged from the warp when the Death Guard fleet broke out bore little resemblance to what had entered. The gleaming white and grey armour of Imperial champions was no more, burst and shattered from the horrific bloating of infected bodies, scabbed with boils, putrescence and the filth of corruption. Their weapons and machinery of war were now powered by the sickly sorcery of Chaos, glowing with lambent green luminescence and oozing gangrenous pus.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Some of those primarchs seem pretty gullible, a few visions from a daemon or a xenos device and suddenly they are betraying everything they stood for.

Agreed.

For them to all of a sudden trust and believe something that they would normally kill on first sight over their 'Emperor Beloved by All' seems really gimp.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
demonicjapsel wrote:Magnus is the only one that deserves pity.

True, I think he got screwed over the hardest by his "brothers."

Perturabo, Night Haunter, Lorgar and some others would disagree with you on this

**undivided**

What would a being just a little less than a god, do with the pity of mere mortal?

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

That's what I like best about this. There is no Black or white, just infinite shades of grey.

One person on a previous thread phrased it perfectly but I can't seem to find it. And I feel some what ashamed trying to rephrase it.

y'know what I won't I'm gonna find it.

instead I will add my opinion.
I can kind of relate with Angron, you spend so much time and effort trying to be free, and trying to free your comrades, but then your father comes around shuts down all your hard work and kills your friends. What the hell are you supposed to do? Anger and resentment builds and rage was his only output. Horus offered him a way to get back at his father. The sad thing with Angron was that he decided not to actually confront his father about it afterwards...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
from Are there wolves on fenris?

from username: Nurglitch

Nurglitch wrote:

"I'm rereading A Thousand Sons and the author goes to some laborious lengths to make the moral ambiguity of everything an issue. Is the Warp heaven, or hell?

Something that Codex: Chaos Space Marines (and Lord of the Night) makes clear is that the line is crossed when something is done for its own selfish purposes, and that corruption is a matter of turning inward. That's why I like the lack of And They Shall Know No Fear in Chaos Space Marines: morale goes to pot when your fellow soldiers are no longer willing to die for you or the cause. Not that there aren't a lot of lines crossed along the way, but the big one seems to be the inversion of intention.

Which is kind of neat if you know anything about Dante's Divine Comedy where the Inferno, Hell, is an inward spiral of man gradually turning away from god, his community, and ultimately himself.

The Thousand Sons, in the eponymous novel, take the value of knowledge for its own sake long before they realize that they've damned themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they decide to go all in and preserve themselves from their reckoning.

Similarly the Luna Wolves are full of themselves as the foremost legion, the Emperor's Children are proud of their own pride, trying to make it a virtue, and the Death Guard are indominatible because that's who they are. Captain Kharn of the World Eaters shows their taint when he reveals that he expects no end to the Great Crusade, and the Night Haunter commits suicide rather than descend into the embrace of Chaos. All of the traitor legions turn inward and discover the emptiness of Chaos waiting for them. When they're no longer fighting for glorious ideals, for the Emperor's vision of the galaxy, etc. Magnus' own attempt at suicide fails when he decides to act in his Legion's interests, his own interests, rather than calmly putting his own head on the chopping block. "

just... i have no words....