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i hadn't thought of a stormraven with a dredd

So I am replying to this thread, necro-ing it, because I have a few questions about DOA army composition and possible problems.

1) How do you deal with 'Death Star' units that can munch through your force? TH Termies, Nob bikers etc.

2) Should you really not equip your Priests with PW/PF because they should be at the back of the assult and safe from being wounded?

3) I see a lot of lists with Vanguard Veterans. They seem really expensive for their ability (although I do understand their worth. I just don't know if I could consider them totally worth it). Are they really needed in these sorts of lists? Or can those points be spent on a other elite unit (or troops or speeders etc.).

4) Are landspeeders worth taking to provide some sort of ranged anti-tank?

5) Is a banner for moral needed?

6) An aside question: Can terminators be put in a Stormraven?

So this is how i've dealt with those following:

1) have melta take them out, avoid them in favor of mission objectives, overrun them with lots of high I charges with FnP, or have a somewhat dedicated assault squad (vanguard vets with a PW, and LCs work well, just a few of these special weapons, most have nothing.) to really hit the unit hard.

2)DO NOT EQUIP PRIESTS WITH ANYTHING!! They need Jumppacks, and that already makes them a 75 point model, you have to have them in squads so they dont get shoot at, and if they get assaulted they can be picked out of assault due to being a one wound IC, and if he dies your whole unit loses a lot of stuff!! you do not want him in combat, just around it. I would give one a combi-melta or flamer as only equiptment, but nothing else, against a smart opponent they can die very fast.

3)I don't think vanguard vets are needed, but i think they are really nice. The ability to have a unit which can charge when they drop isn't great with normal marines, but with DoA it makes it really doable, and they can have a bunch of special weapons and gear so they can be set up to handle tanks or heavy armored enemies. I keep them small squads, 5-7, and give them only 2-3 guys with any sort of special weapon. Give the sergeant a thunderhammer since its cheap. I have played around with speeders, but eh, don't do much for me as a charge with vanguard vets. You just have to spend your points wisely with vanguard vets. give them a focus then equipt them as if you were equipting an assault squad, so few special weapons. that way you save points. i sometimes use honor guard for this instead, thou i always have at least one honor guard in my army even if i do have vanguard vets.

4)I tried them as anti-hoard with HB, didnt really help, havent tried them as anti-tank. Do i need anti-tank, eh, not really, i have three full assault squads, so that gives me 6 meltas, then i have a honor guard squad with another melta, and dante with his inferno pistol, then I have 5 Pf, and 1 Thunderhammer, vangaurd vets with meltabombs, and a libbie with blood lance. I always feel like i have enough to deal with tanks. When I drop down, unless i get bad rolls, most of the tanks are very much gone. I don't need more.

5)I dont think you're troops will end up close enough together for it to be useful, you end dividing your army up since you dont want them to scatter into each other or onto terrain. You scatter them out on the basis that they can reformat into one group that can support each other, and so that each unit has a support element. A banner has a radius that you will rarely use, and is expensive. Maybe its good, idk if i would use it.

6) i have no idea, sorry haah


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hope that helps lurker, and sorrry to necro

The Vanguard are only worth it if you have a particular role for them. Mine are there to hold walkers and death stars, and I keep them cheap with 3 storm shields and a Lightning Claw. I don't think they are worth it with more offensive weapons, as they start to get expensive and try to do things that Sanguinary Guard are better at.

Lurker wrote:So I am replying to this thread, necro-ing it, because I have a few questions about DOA army composition and possible problems.

1) How do you deal with 'Death Star' units that can munch through your force? TH Termies, Nob bikers etc.

2) Should you really not equip your Priests with PW/PF because they should be at the back of the assult and safe from being wounded?

3) I see a lot of lists with Vanguard Veterans. They seem really expensive for their ability (although I do understand their worth. I just don't know if I could consider them totally worth it). Are they really needed in these sorts of lists? Or can those points be spent on a other elite unit (or troops or speeders etc.).

4) Are landspeeders worth taking to provide some sort of ranged anti-tank?

5) Is a banner for moral needed?

6) An aside question: Can terminators be put in a Stormraven?

1) Avoid them or engage them on your own terms. They're usually too slow to catch you so they can be avoided or dogpiled on by multiple units.

2) Nakid priests are a bad overreaction. The thing I really don't understand is if a player completely loses their nerve with priests they still keep them nakid instead of giving them a combi melta. Priests are too good of a unit not to equip with a PW, you just need to know when to engage them in CC and when to hold them back like they were nakid. Also note that sometimes they are safer jumping into CC than they would be held back. A prime example would be fighting plague marines. If you pin down the aspiring champion with a power fist with assault marines at a range >2" from the priest the priest is safe. If anything is going to kill the priest it's most likely going to be the pfist, so by positionable the priest at the far end of the squad from the pfist the priest is relatively safe. Also note by round 2 of CC no matter what you do the priest will be sucked into CC, and at that point trying to save a few points by spending 75 points instead of 90 on the priests won't pay off because the only time I have noticed priests die to regular attacks in CC is when the combat becomes very long and drawn out usually because its' meq v meq and the BA player didn't equip his priest with a power weapon.

3) They're a crapshoot and overly reliant on luck. Even with DOA a high risk deep strike is necessary to use heroic intervention that risks both mishap and being out of assault range. They are not needed in any list, and they are unreliable. Performance varies from game to game, and it's almost always 1 star or 5 star with nothing in between.

4) Never take a land speeder. If you want more anti tank take a MM attack bike instead. It's far easier to get a cover save for the MM attack bike, and a FNP 2 wound attack bike is far more durable than a land speeder against the vast majority of attacks.

5) Absolutely, a 12" radius is a 24" diameter. There is the entire board, and there is the important part of the board, and it is very rare that the thick of the action covers an area larger than a 36" diameter. The banner should cover every squad in the thick of the action. Assault marines fall back 3D6" which will definitely screw up the priests 6" bubble for somebody. They are also subject to pinning. Some weapons like a manticore can hit multiple squads in the same turn, especially against BA because squads are relatively close to utilize the priests bubble. If a full str squad and combat squad take a hit that's 2 pinning checks at -1, it can start to get real ugly real fast. Also note if you take the banner on sang guard upgrade to the +1 attack banner, and at the last minute throw the librarian and a pw priest into the squad before they assault. The pair of IC have 10 WS5 I5 S5 reroll to hit through unleash rage power weapon attacks backed up by 20 more S5 I5 WS4 reroll to hit power weapon attacks. Against anything WS4 that should average 24 S5 power weapon hits at I5, which I might add is not possible if you're too cheap to buy the priest a pw.

6) Including armor turns your list into a hybrid list that loses it's 100% heavy infantry target saturation.

@ above post: i really like your arguement for not having naked priests, as well as the banner. I may have to try the banner, but i dont really like PW on my priests, i do see combat as sometimes being a safe place for them, but i have tried pw on my priests and they only end up being a waste in my experience. a combiweapon on the other hand can do wonders.

I run a DOA list and I've had quite some success with it. I just take blood lance so that my opponent won't castle up all his tanks and if he still does, well that's a lot of hits. I split most if not all my 10 man squads into combat squads, with melta teams dropping in and blasting tanks. Assault teams drop a little back, preferably obscured from the enemy. My vanguards I quite like personally, the ability to DS fairly accurately and multi charging tanks and high firepower enemy units is quite useful. I don't go all out on them, only 2 PF in each squad and some meltabombs.

i do a thunderhammer and a PF, and some meltabombs in my vanguard vets just since the thunderhammer is very cheap for the sergeant. always combat squad your units, I have had no luck with full man squads, but lots of 5 man squads darting arund can do great work.

i love blood lance, def with dante and a group of melta honor guard. you can DS them anywhere with no scatter, the melta honor guard knocks out a tank, while the blood lance can fire at a different target! if placed correctly that turn of shooting alone can really repay dante's outrageous cost.

Unfortunately, I don't think that we can combat squad any unit in reserve according to the latest FAQ...See the entry about placing one combat squad in the drop pod and deploying the other on the BA FAQ

really? didnt see that, i thought you dont combat squad them till the squad enters play then you can combat squad them

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Actually I have found starting the entire army in reserve and deepstriking all your units works best. You can take full advantage of DoA (1d6" scatter plus reroll reserves).

This.

Sageheart wrote:really? didnt see that, i thought you dont combat squad them till the squad enters play then you can combat squad them

This.

Priests w/ combi and jump packs.
Honor Guard w 4 x melta.
8 VV with a th, 3 ss, and a pf. DoA is d6 scatter. 8 guys gets you 2" closer to the enemy with careful placement on the drop. I have yet to fail a charge with 8 VV.
Combat squadded troops.

Works very well, and the more you play it the better it works.

And against termie armies now? How would one change?

prussia59 wrote:And against termie armies now? How would one change?

We're kind of boned.

DOA does very well against mech because in objective based games we have more units that can combat squad, every unit can have melta, and we have speed that can't be blown up by a single melta gun shot. Even with the new FAQ about combat squads DOA does very well deploying on the table. Halfway through the battle mech will have lost most of their transports, and then DOA has a huge mobility advantage. With mech as king DOA had the potential to do very well in the meta game.

Against terminators DOA can ROFL stomp a bad terminator player, but a good terminator player is going to be almost unbeatable. DOA can stomp small amounts of terminators by swarming them like assault marines are ork boys. TH/SS termies are not that big of a deal if you hit them with the Sanguinor and 68 S5 I5 attacks from 18 assault marines, for added fun give 35 of them rerolls to hit. The problem is if an army has a large number of terminators the easy counter is to keep the terminator squads close to each other so they can counter assault the assault marines after they wipe a squad of terminators. That negates the speed advantage, and the new BT/DA will have CML if the BA stand off and try to snipe them with meltas. 10 terminators is no problem, 25+ terminators is a hard counter to the all power armor DOA list.

Honestly, since the faq I dusted off the dark angels. With 10 playtest games against tier 1 armies, it has lost 2 games. It was the first 2 and after a minor tweak to the build to get a ld10 hood in there, I haven't lost.

I think most all builds will be boned against 32 th/ss terminators with 6 cyclone missles and 3 bike squads at 2k.

At 1500, DoA should be ok, but at 2000, I think DA might be king for a little while.

That is sad. And I was only half way done building mine.

So, maybe the only option is, if they stick together, try to hit him with everything at once and try to multicharge to victory. That, or scurry like mice hiding from CMS. Maybe this is where hybrids might come in handy... Take enough ML devs in cover to dish out damage?

Or take assault termies with fnp and maybe other goodies and hope they're enough to add the punch the list needs.


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Like, a chappy or librarian or a land raider.

Assault termies are too slow for it to be a proper doa army. Though a doa/termie all infantry army could work it trades the grace of doa for the sledgehammer effect of 20 fnp assault termies.

People freak out over fnp th/ss termies, but the lc are the real threat. With fc a 60/40 in favor of the lc is scary. 6fc lc=24 s5 i5 lc attacks.

i never had to worry too much with termies, but then again i only fight lists fielding 5-10, not 20.

@Inigo Montoya
I like Sang priests with combi-weapons, thou I don't like putting that much gear only VV. I give them one thunderhammer (on serg), and one pf, and then 2 meltabombs, ion a 7-8 man squad. Maybe one SS thrown in there. For an anti-infantry squad, have 7-8 VV with one LC, and one PW, with the serg having the free PW, with maybe (again) one SS. I don't like giving them a bunch of gear but giving them just enough to get the job done!

Sageheart wrote:i never had to worry too much with termies, but then again i only fight lists fielding 5-10, not 20.

@Inigo Montoya
I like Sang priests with combi-weapons, thou I don't like putting that much gear only VV. I give them one thunderhammer (on serg), and one pf, and then 2 meltabombs, ion a 7-8 man squad. Maybe one SS thrown in there. For an anti-infantry squad, have 7-8 VV with one LC, and one PW, with the serg having the free PW, with maybe (again) one SS. I don't like giving them a bunch of gear but giving them just enough to get the job done!

I'm really baffled by people who say keep priests nakid an don't even give them a combi weapon.

I play DoA BA and if I played myself I would ask the following questions;

Do you have a blood lance libby
Do you have Vanguard and if you do, do they have melta bombs and how are they kitted
How many melta guns do you have


Give them turn 1 if possible

Stay in your tanks
Pop smoke the turn prior to their reserve rolls
If they answer yes to question 1, then spread out.
If they answer yes to question 2, then move 7+ inches and pop smoke prior to their reserve rolls.



Now, playing DoA BA means you need to overcome opponents that ask/prepare for those questions. Devs in cover with a priest helps with a couple of those points. Pop smoke for the Devs...get melta. Move 12" to avoid Vanguard/Melta bombs, then you're not shooting Devs. Devs in cover with a Sang Priest bubble is nothing to snicker at either, pretty tough unit to dislodge.

that is true ^. Those questions and responses are really the things I notice when I play against DoA or when people are playing me. I dont like to add devs only since I feel that the best way to run the list is to go with the melta assault squads, sang priests, libbies, and vanguards, and try to make them strong enough (either in size or number of units) so that they can handle the other army despite them expecting certain units.

On naked priests, I keep them naked usually only since I don't usually have the points to give them gear, but when i do have the points i tend to give them combi-meltas, or flamers.

Do you have a blood lance libby: No the 2 powers I always take is unleash rage and shield of sanguinis because assault marines have to take dangerous terrain tests if they jump into cover.

Do you have Vanguard and if you do, do they have melta bombs and how are they kitted: None, they can be a good unit but they are entirely to random for me. I much prefer more units of honor guard or SG over VV.

How many melta guns do you have: As many as I can fit. I prefer invest at least half the points in my army into assault squads with 2 melta guns. They are the backbone, muscle, and sinew of a DOA list.


Give them turn 1 if possible: Depends on who I am fighting. If it is a gunline like mech IG or Tau I'll often chose to go first. Scout bikes can launch a turn 1 assault, while everybody else is 24" away. 24" away to start then 12" move then D6" run=everybody is in assault range on turn 2. They get exactly 1 turn of shooting before I'm on them like white on rice.

schadenfreude wrote:
Do you have a blood lance libby: No the 2 powers I always take is unleash rage and shield of sanguinis because assault marines have to take dangerous terrain tests if they jump into cover.

Do you have Vanguard and if you do, do they have melta bombs and how are they kitted: None, they can be a good unit but they are entirely to random for me. I much prefer more units of honor guard or SG over VV.

How many melta guns do you have: As many as I can fit. I prefer invest at least half the points in my army into assault squads with 2 melta guns. They are the backbone, muscle, and sinew of a DOA list.


Give them turn 1 if possible: Depends on who I am fighting. If it is a gunline like mech IG or Tau I'll often chose to go first. Scout bikes can launch a turn 1 assault, while everybody else is 24" away. 24" away to start then 12" move then D6" run=everybody is in assault range on turn 2. They get exactly 1 turn of shooting before I'm on them like white on rice.

I meant that more as a "If I played a Blood Angels DOA list, these are the questions I'll ask before the game starts". The reason being, as listed above, the turn before you drop they'll simply move 12" (If you have Vanguard) and pop smoke. How many melta guns do you have though? A number? Because against a good opponent, you need to do this;

Take the # of melta guns * .66 (That's how many hits you can count on given BS 4)
Take that number * .5 (That's how many hits you can count on getting through smoke)
Then start figuring up how many will pen armor given you drop perfect

For example, "I have 12 melta guns in my army"
12 * .66 = 8 hits
8 * .5 = 4 actual shots get through

So given 12 melta guns you can only count on around 4 shots actually rolling to glance/pen. You would also need to consider how many different targets you can engage (Given the new combat squads FAQ), etc.....so it doesn't take long to realize smoke negates your alpha strike. Devs fix that problem, you should proxy them a few games.

I found that a DoA army can work very well, got 2nd in an RTT with it (2000 pts). The report is somewhere here at Dakka - Battle Reports.
Against tougher enemies I'd be inclined to include a squad of Assault Termies.

DoA 2000 pts (2 Libbies + 2 HG, 2 SPs, 3 AMs, 3 VVs).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:DoA 2000 pts (2 Libbies + 2 HG, 2 SPs, 3 AMs, 3 VVs) - intermediate state.

I have to agree with the Dev's remark, I have started to include them in my DoA lists at higher points.

I will also say that the HG is a great unit to include in a DoA, it comes with a built in Priest which is very useful! The unit can also be geared as anti-mech or anti-horde, or both (arming each HG with BOTH a flamer & Meltagun). Dante combined with such a squad is great, just a bit expensive.

I do not have very much experience with SG, but I think they would play nicely with AM especially with their Banner Buff.

I don't think MB are absolutely necessary for VV - you've already got krak grenades which are good enough versus most tanks - if you take a TH there is a good chance you'll at least stun the tank which often is good enough - you don't see a lot of EA these days.

How much melta you bring - well you really need some flamers as well to help handle hordes. If you overlap your squads you can take out that Demolisher when you really to.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Do you have a blood lance libby: No the 2 powers I always take is unleash rage and shield of sanguinis because assault marines have to take dangerous terrain tests if they jump into cover.

Do you have Vanguard and if you do, do they have melta bombs and how are they kitted: None, they can be a good unit but they are entirely to random for me. I much prefer more units of honor guard or SG over VV.

How many melta guns do you have: As many as I can fit. I prefer invest at least half the points in my army into assault squads with 2 melta guns. They are the backbone, muscle, and sinew of a DOA list.


Give them turn 1 if possible: Depends on who I am fighting. If it is a gunline like mech IG or Tau I'll often chose to go first. Scout bikes can launch a turn 1 assault, while everybody else is 24" away. 24" away to start then 12" move then D6" run=everybody is in assault range on turn 2. They get exactly 1 turn of shooting before I'm on them like white on rice.

I meant that more as a "If I played a Blood Angels DOA list, these are the questions I'll ask before the game starts". The reason being, as listed above, the turn before you drop they'll simply move 12" (If you have Vanguard) and pop smoke. How many melta guns do you have though? A number? Because against a good opponent, you need to do this;

Take the # of melta guns * .66 (That's how many hits you can count on given BS 4)
Take that number * .5 (That's how many hits you can count on getting through smoke)
Then start figuring up how many will pen armor given you drop perfect

For example, "I have 12 melta guns in my army"
12 * .66 = 8 hits
8 * .5 = 4 actual shots get through

So given 12 melta guns you can only count on around 4 shots actually rolling to glance/pen. You would also need to consider how many different targets you can engage (Given the new combat squads FAQ), etc.....so it doesn't take long to realize smoke negates your alpha strike. Devs fix that problem, you should proxy them a few games.

You don't need to deep strike the entire army. Most of the time I don't enter the battlefield by DOA (about 80% of the time), and the only time I am 100% certain to DOA is if I go first in a dawn of war deployment. Let's look at the pros and cons of DOA.

Pro#1: You always get to deploy 2nd after the other side has deployed. Negated if you get to deploy 2nd.
Pro#2: You always get to deploy within assault range of the other side. Negated if you get to go first because you get to be within assault range on turn 2 anyways.
*note one of the 2 Pros will always be negated by turn order with the exception of deploying first in DOW*
Pro#3: You always get the first shots off, but the other side is sure to have smoked. Also in doing so see Con#3

Con#1: Units will scatter out of the priest's bubble making them vulnerable to enemy fire
Con#2: Key units may fail their reserve roll (like priests)
Con#3: Units may roll poorly on their run, or choose to shoot making them very vulnerable to templates. IMO the alpha strike of Pro#3 is not worth the backlash from Con#3.

IMO in most deployments DOA is just not worth it, especially if the BA player goes first in a non DOW deployment. Units need to move in formation centered around a priest and a librarian (For the 5+ cover). DOA scatters that formation. None of this is new news. Deploying by standard deployment has been my strategy since the codex came out, it's not just a reactionary plan to the combat squads FAQ.

Don't you think it's better to go second? Your opponent loses one shooting phase. I think if you are going to play a true DoA list it's best to go ahead and reserve your army - that way you can take advantage of rerolling your reserves and the reduced scatter for deep striking.

1850 DOA army. Bring the pain.


HQ - Dante
HQ - Sanguinor

EL - 2 Priests, 2 Jump Packs, 2 Power weapons, 2 meltabombs

TR - 5 Sanguinary Guard, 2 infernus pistols, powerfist
TR - 5 Sanguinary Guard, 2 infernus pistols, powerfist
TR - 5 Sanguinary Guard, 2 infernus pistols, powerfist
TR - 5 Sanguinary Guard, 2 infernus pistols, powerfist
TR - 10 assault marines, 2 meltaguns, Sarge w/ power weapon, infernus pistol

schadenfreude wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Do you have a blood lance libby: No the 2 powers I always take is unleash rage and shield of sanguinis because assault marines have to take dangerous terrain tests if they jump into cover.

Do you have Vanguard and if you do, do they have melta bombs and how are they kitted: None, they can be a good unit but they are entirely to random for me. I much prefer more units of honor guard or SG over VV.

How many melta guns do you have: As many as I can fit. I prefer invest at least half the points in my army into assault squads with 2 melta guns. They are the backbone, muscle, and sinew of a DOA list.


Give them turn 1 if possible: Depends on who I am fighting. If it is a gunline like mech IG or Tau I'll often chose to go first. Scout bikes can launch a turn 1 assault, while everybody else is 24" away. 24" away to start then 12" move then D6" run=everybody is in assault range on turn 2. They get exactly 1 turn of shooting before I'm on them like white on rice.

I meant that more as a "If I played a Blood Angels DOA list, these are the questions I'll ask before the game starts". The reason being, as listed above, the turn before you drop they'll simply move 12" (If you have Vanguard) and pop smoke. How many melta guns do you have though? A number? Because against a good opponent, you need to do this;

Take the # of melta guns * .66 (That's how many hits you can count on given BS 4)
Take that number * .5 (That's how many hits you can count on getting through smoke)
Then start figuring up how many will pen armor given you drop perfect

For example, "I have 12 melta guns in my army"
12 * .66 = 8 hits
8 * .5 = 4 actual shots get through

So given 12 melta guns you can only count on around 4 shots actually rolling to glance/pen. You would also need to consider how many different targets you can engage (Given the new combat squads FAQ), etc.....so it doesn't take long to realize smoke negates your alpha strike. Devs fix that problem, you should proxy them a few games.

You don't need to deep strike the entire army. Most of the time I don't enter the battlefield by DOA (about 80% of the time), and the only time I am 100% certain to DOA is if I go first in a dawn of war deployment. Let's look at the pros and cons of DOA.

Pro#1: You always get to deploy 2nd after the other side has deployed. Negated if you get to deploy 2nd.
Pro#2: You always get to deploy within assault range of the other side. Negated if you get to go first because you get to be within assault range on turn 2 anyways.
*note one of the 2 Pros will always be negated by turn order with the exception of deploying first in DOW*
Pro#3: You always get the first shots off, but the other side is sure to have smoked. Also in doing so see Con#3

Con#1: Units will scatter out of the priest's bubble making them vulnerable to enemy fire
Con#2: Key units may fail their reserve roll (like priests)
Con#3: Units may roll poorly on their run, or choose to shoot making them very vulnerable to templates. IMO the alpha strike of Pro#3 is not worth the backlash from Con#3.

IMO in most deployments DOA is just not worth it, especially if the BA player goes first in a non DOW deployment. Units need to move in formation centered around a priest and a librarian (For the 5+ cover). DOA scatters that formation. None of this is new news. Deploying by standard deployment has been my strategy since the codex came out, it's not just a reactionary plan to the combat squads FAQ.

I agree that setting up certainly has its place and I do from time to time. However, most games at tournaments I end up playing mechanized gunlines, which doesn't bode well for a melta gun/deployed army that doesn't have 1st turn.