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Luke_Prowler wrote:Uh, what? If the Boyz get the charge, then they would swing at the same time as the guardsmen.

Give the boyz perfect circumstances - no casualties to shooting, and with a waaugh.

30 boyz kill 35 guardsmen, who in turn kill 9.

20 guardsmen kill 6 boyz. 15 boyz kill 10 guardsmen.

10 guardsmen kill 5 boyz. 10 boyz kill 5 guardsmen.

5 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 8 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

4 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 6 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

3 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 4 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

2 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 2 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

The last commissar kills at least one boy. If the commissar only killed one, the last boy has about a 50% chance to win combat.

In the end, assuming that the boyz get perfect circumstances, THEY STILL LOOSE. Meanwhile, in the guard perfect circumstances, the boyz never make it into combat as they get shot off the field before they even get close.

guard blob > ork boyz.

Ailaros wrote:
5 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 8 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

4 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 6 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

3 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 4 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

2 guardsmen kill 2 boyz. 2 boyz kill 1 guardsman.

I don't quite know how you work this bit out. 8 boyz kill one Guardsman?! 3A x 8 = 24. 50% chance of hit = 12. 50% chance of wound = 6 wounds. Thats on average, 4-5 IG dead.

I think you need to sort your maths out dude.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in fact, MY maths is wrong as Orks are WS4 and so will hit IG on 3s rather than 4s, making the stats even more in their favour.

Once you get down to 10 models, the orks are rolling against the commissar's WS4, not the guardsman's WS3. That said, I did screw up with the number of boyz at the end.

Still, the fact that the boy mob only eeks out a victory only in perfect circumstances is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Plus, you've also got to add in that the orks will loose a LOT of combats and they're not going to be fearless for long...

How many 50-man, 5-Commisar power blobs do you see? Now how many 30-man Ork Boyz w/ PK Nob mobs do you see? Your arguing in favour of an anomaly which even then LOSES to a very, very common Ork loadout.

L. Wrex

Not to mention that a 50 blob unit with 5 commissar sounds expensive.

Just Dave wrote:


What? I accept, the Guard may win this overall due to sheer attrition, but I can't see how the wolves would manage only 10 on the 1st round of combat?! Even without the charge. My rough maths shows more than 10 guard being killed. Easily.

Agreed - My math shows closer to 15-20 IG dying on the 1st round, with only 3-4 Wolf Guard dropping. Which means one of the sargeants is then going to eat a bolt pistol round to the face from Der Kommisar, reducing the number of power weapon attack in the next round. They may well win over attrition, but it won't be a sure thing by any stretch.

208 for the 8 man zerk unit with fistichamp. Not that I run 3 squads of them

I love my zerkers, although the hate WS5+ stuff. Not hitting on 3s means i miss soooooooo often!

Just to chuck a kerb ball in ( know, I know, no HQs but how else are Tau gonna get a look in!) how about Commander Farsight + 7 bodyguards. Give them each two shield drones and you've got:

1x S5, I5 power weapon HQ
7x S5, T4, W2, A2 Suits
14x T4, I4, 3+/4++ Shield Drones

Plus you can abuse wound allocation all day with loadouts. Give them a Failsave Detonator so you can't get over-run.

Even without any shooting (I'd say plasma rifles and flamers....) they're going to chuck out 53 attacks on the first turn!

OInly problem with the Farsight bomb is it will be your whole army(looking at about 2k when it's all said and done)

Nulipuli2 wrote:10 banshees with warshout and executioner 182 points

I would have to agree.

Actually with the IG if you give the Infantry Platoon Command Squad a Commissar as well and all the Commissars and Sergeants/Platoon Commander are packing Power Weapons I believe you end up with a total of 61 men in the unit, counting the Commissars, Officer and NCOs. You also have 12 men wielding Power Weapons and 6 with Melta Bombs as well which is the upside of this build.

The downside though is without giving any other upgrades to the unit such as meltaguns, voxcasters, etc... the unit comes in at a rather robust cost of something like 640 points and once you add in all the normal extras like the usual compliment of meltaguns you are talking about a unit that is around 755 points, for single wound models with very average stats and poor armor saves, with a minimal chance of dropping MC or Armor.

In addition the footprint for that unit would be unwieldy to say the least, unless your table looks like you are fighting in the Tallarn Desert. You would almost invariably endup in multiple assaults with a unit of that size which changes the equation somewhat depending on what enemy units you contact.

Genestealers? Or they used to be.

WRAITHLORD with wraithsword

OK, my preferred suggestions for best Close Combat Unit, excluding all factors except those that occur within the assault phase (incl. leadership etc.) are:

20x Chaos Space Marine Possessed. Icon of Nurgle. IIRC it allows 20-man squads, this'll be fearless, invulnerable save, strength 5, toughness 5 with a 50/50 chance of having either power weapons, rending or FNP.
(if 20 possessed isn't possible, then 20 Bezerkers)

or a brood of 3 carnifex's with all the goodies. Whilst lacking in numbers, I can't imagine much being able to take these down unless optimised against MC's. For example, the IG Blob or Ork Boys lack much that can defeat these.

Ultimately, I'd say it's one of these, or more likely the Ork Boyz mob or 10-man Zerkers.

Hialmar - the PCS cannot "blob" with the infantry squads.

A squad of 20 khorne berzerkers,

I mean 80 attacks on the charge with WS 5 Str 5 In 5 (Because of furious charge) that annihilates anything it touches, yes it is 420pts for all 20 but it is worth it. I mean these guys just rip stuff apart vehicals, huge infantry blocks, special characters anything,

29 slugga boyz +1 PK nob w/bosspole. Its 220ish points (dont want to pull the book out) Its 116 WS4 attacks on the charge + 4 pk attacks on the charge. Plenty enough wounds in that mob to soak up....well anything youve posted so far as well as dish out unit busting results. And I didnt break the bank


So yea to even up on the points, lets add another 29 boyz +pk nob for 232 WS4 attacks and 8 pk attacks for 440ish points. So go ahead and try to beat that in one assault phase.

Mr Nobody wrote:Genestealers? Or they used to be.

Genestealers with Toxin Sacks are right up there on the killy-scale, and would certainly maul the vaunted Guard blob being discussed here.

A squad of thirty boyz on the charge.

Very little outside of vehicles can withstand it for roughly equal points cost. Hehe.

A squad of complex Blood Crushers can absorb a charge from 30 boyz. The Crushers still hit first and after the first round of combat the boyz will need 6s to wound.

You're still only going to have ~4-5 bloodcrushers per 30 Boyz.

That's only 8-10 wounds. That's nothing compared to the power of the Ork horde. Even if half of their attacks hit and killed (a likely scenario), that's still 96 S4 attacks at WS4. All they need to do is for a mere seven of those to cause an unsaved wound in order to start causing casualties because of Fearless.

That is NOT an unlikely occurance.

against blob guard?
Grey knights. I4 ID attacks- and thier SB shots ignore armour. 'nuff said.

generally? my faves are:
genestealers w/ broodlord
10 vanguard veterans, 4 w/ 2 LCs, 6 w/ th/ss.
10 terminators w/ th/ss.

I'm really liking the Hekatrix Bloodbrides (elite wychs). They get plenty of attacks, and with the shardnet, a 4++ drugs, and possibly FNP and FC can really be a stupidly powerful yet resilient force - all relatively cheap at @ 13 points per model.

My most favorite Close Combat Unit I don't know if this counts as a HQ unit.
The Honor Guard.
Or
the Vanguard Veterans equiped with all power weapons and a powerfist XD

I stand by Carnifex brood with goodies. 3 Carnifexes as one unit, the Ork boys mob has only a single Powerklaw for example.

However, points to pounds, it's got be the Ork Boys or even Khorne Bezerkers...

And the winner of the most rediculously expensive points waste of all time that will never see light of day in a normal 40k game, yet for when something just HAS to die:

30x Death Company: dual thunderhammers, jetpack, Lemartes
9x Sanguinary Priests: power armor, combiflamer, lightning claw, jetpack

120 thunderhammer, 27 lightning, and 3 MC'd power weapon attacks on the charge. Thunderhammers reroll hits and wounds. Lightning claws reroll wounds. All have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. It can all be yours for the low, low cost of 3900 points.

Back in the realm of semi-reality, I'm a fan of the decked out Genestealers with Broodlord...again though I don't think I'd spend that many points on a single unit of pretty fragile stealers.

That is an incredibly deadly unit - which as you said is the most ridiculously expensive waste of points and will never see the light of day - but the Sanguinary Priests break the OP's 'rules' as it's more than one unit. Doesn't make the Death Guard any less stupidly deadly however.


I agree, the Genestealers could be very good. Luckily, as the OP's question is about Close Combat, their fragility doesn't matter so much as there's no shooting. Hence my choice of carnifexes.

For the points, Killa Kanz can destroy most units effectively. I also think MCs would do well, like a Trygon.

Also, TH/SS Terminators are awesome.

Melissia wrote:You're still only going to have ~4-5 bloodcrushers per 30 Boyz.

That's only 8-10 wounds. That's nothing compared to the power of the Ork horde. Even if half of their attacks hit and killed (a likely scenario), that's still 96 S4 attacks at WS4. All they need to do is for a mere seven of those to cause an unsaved wound in order to start causing casualties because of Fearless.

That is NOT an unlikely occurance.

You can field up to 8 Crushers per unit. So against 30 boyz that comes out to 24 S5 attacks at WS5. 18 attacks hit and 12 wound with no armor saves. This brings the boyz down to 16. Even at WS4 S4 only half or going to hit and only one third of those are going to wound. Orks then lose more wounds to fearless saves. Next round of combat it's over. Believe me, I have faced orks with my Khorne Daemons enough to know it's a bad matchup for the xenos.

Just Dave wrote:That is an incredibly deadly unit - which as you said is the most ridiculously expensive waste of points and will never see the light of day - but the Sanguinary Priests break the OP's 'rules' as it's more than one unit. Doesn't make the Death Guard any less stupidly deadly however.


I agree, the Genestealers could be very good. Luckily, as the OP's question is about Close Combat, their fragility doesn't matter so much as there's no shooting. Hence my choice of carnifexes.

Well technically as ICs, they join to form a single unit and the OP didn't say anything about not selecting ICs or selecting from more than one unit choice....just no HQs...but it wasn't meant as a serious addition to the thread anyway