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Ok, I'm not arguing that anywhere on the table means anywhere, nor have I ever said that terrain (except impassable) is not a viable spot.

Paragraph 2 of the Deepstike rules on page 95 of the BRB.
"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice."

Ok, So I put my spore where I want it (in this crazy argument, we're putting it inside a unit already on the table, not where I would put it) ANYWHERE on the table. Ok, cool. No problem with that. Says anywhere (barring exceptions previously mentioned).
Once placed, I then roll the scatter dice. Thats where it ends up.

Now, follow that carefully. The model gets physically put on the table before dice get rolled. If, as you guys are wanting to have happen, I placed it on top of another unit, that unit has to move models out of the way for me to physically put the model on the table (or else I'm just tossing my heavy clay spore on top of your plastic). Then I roll the scatter dice. There are no rules (even imaginary ones) that allow for those models to be moved out of the way for me to place my model on the table before rolling scatter.

The Mawloc, again, does not get put on the table until after the deepstrike has happened. Essentially, the blast marker is deepstriking on the table (with the notable exception that the marker is said to be held over the units,not placed on the table), making a huge mess, and then the actual model for the Mawloc gets placed on the table.

Kirsanth, no. Blast markers are held over the models targeted, correct? Thats not on the table, but over the tops of the models. And you're not deepstriking them, so...

So again, because you're putting words in my mouth instead of making them come out yours:

How does the spore pod get physically put on the table in the middle of an enemy unit without moving them out of the way, which is an illegal action.

Doomthumbs wrote:The Mawloc, again, does not get put on the table until after the deepstrike has happened

This is still not true, read TftD again. The Deepstrike needs to be resolved FIRST.

Doomthumbs wrote:Kirsanth, no. Blast markers are held over the models targeted, correct? Thats not on the table, but over the tops of the models.

But once they resolve their scatter they auto-miss if the marker is beyond the table's (top) edge.

Backtracking slightly, this:

Doomthumbs wrote: I understand the idea behind what you're saying but even a 'hit' on the scatter dice is still a scatter. You're 'scattering' zero inches, but it is still called the scatter dice for a reason.

...is mistaken.
The Deep Strike rules actually state that if a hit is rolled, the unit is placed as is, and if an arrow is rolled the unit scatters. A roll of a 'hit' on the scatter die is not a scatter of '0 inches' ... The unit doesn't scatter.

The Spores rules allow it to reduce the scatter if it scatters. Since rolling a hit is not scattering, you can't reduce the scatter.

kirsanth wrote:This is still not true, read TftD again. The Deepstrike needs to be resolved FIRST.

Oh, Ok, awesome. That kinda helps my point out actually. So the Mawloc gets physically put on the table, then rolls scatter. If he lands in an enemy unit then, it triggers TFTD. The template stuff happens, because it says not to roll on the mishap table, and THEN the mawloc moves from where it originally deepstruck onto the table (yes, physically on the table) and replaces the large blast marker.


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insaniak wrote:Backtracking slightly, this:

Doomthumbs wrote: I understand the idea behind what you're saying but even a 'hit' on the scatter dice is still a scatter. You're 'scattering' zero inches, but it is still called the scatter dice for a reason.

...is mistaken.
The Deep Strike rules actually state that if a hit is rolled, the unit is placed as is, and if an arrow is rolled the unit scatters. A roll of a 'hit' on the scatter die is not a scatter of '0 inches' ... The unit doesn't scatter.

The Spores rules allow it to reduce the scatter if it scatters. Since rolling a hit is not scattering, you can't reduce the scatter.

Doomthumbs wrote: Ok, I'll try a metaphor. You know how a rocket going into space has fuel tanks that burn up getting it to the upper atmosphere, and are then ejected to make the shuttle lighter for the final push into outer space? My "backpedaling and giving up" is just that. Forget I ever said that. Its gone, a crutch to my argument that I no longer need. So my argument, which I admit was extremely thin, is ejected. I no longer need it, so wave goodbye to it as we float on out amongst the stars.

Again,
How does the spore get placed on the table inside an enemy unit in the first place?

The same way you place a model on the table with hills/paint/flock/ruins/etc. underneath it.

Underneath it?
How?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And come on. I'm not ignorant. I know that the top of hills and such is the new 'top of the table'. You guys said that, never me.

Doomthumbs wrote:I know that the top of hills and such is the new 'top of the table'. You guys said that, never me.

No we didn't.

That said, do you count on impassible terrrain as on the table, or only hills?

Its on the table, all right. But since impassable terrain is... well, its impassable. How I play is that nothing ever goes into, through, or on top of impassable terrain.
You might play it differently.

See page 13.

"Remember that other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassable terrain."

This was aimed at me, but I think it was meant for you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you are seriosuly trying to claim it is movement (which is when the restriction on 1" comes in) then i presume you take Dangerous Terrain tests if a model scatters through Difficult Terrain?

If not you are being inconsistent.

Since page 13 is talking about the Movement Phase, I assume you are as well?

Me? Deepstriking does occur in the movement phase.

I think I am basically in agreement with nosferatu1001 (again).

DT - I am stating that DS is not movement, therefore you can come within 1" of a model.

You additionally have permission in that you can place the model ANYWHERE. ANYWHERE means ANYWHERE.

You can place it on impassable terrain, in exactly the same fashion as placing it anywhere on the table. You can place it on the bottom floor of ruins, in exactly the same way. You can place it on models - in exactly the same way.

Nothing forces you to move the unit out the way. Nothing. Remember the UNIT has not arrived - it is simply a marker. You can tell this from the tense - you "place the model where you would LIKE the unit TO ARRIVE" - the model is nothing but a marker.

Doomthumbs wrote:

You're kinda just making things up to suit your argument.

Okay, I'm just going to jump right in without reading more.

What things?

Doomthumbs wrote:Again,
How does the spore get placed on the table inside an enemy unit in the first place?

It can be placed on top of a unit because, as Nos pointed out, the initial placement is just a marker for where you are aiming the pod, not the model's actual landing location. You don't know that location until you have rolled for scatter, after which you actually place the model if possible.

This is somewhat backed up by the clarification in the Tyranid FAQ that the Mawloc can be deliberately placed on enemy troops when deep striking in order to use it's own special ability.

@Insaniak & Nosferatu: But it isn't just a marker. The rules on page 95 of the BRB say you put it on the table in the position you want it to end up. Placing it on the table in this position is key. What if it was a deepstriker with an armor value? Maybe the scatter would be un-advantageous as to where the side and rear armor ended up in relation to enemy LOS. You can't shift it from this position during the scatter move. The rules definately say place the model anywhere on the table (even places like impassable terrain where most people would tell their opponent 'no, thats impassable, we discussed this before the game'). I'm well aware of the fact that 66.6(repeating of course) percent of the time, its going to move from this initial position as a result of an arrow on the scatter. But the rules don't say mark the position you want to come down, it says put the model ON the table IN the position you want it. Again, this is only an issue for the models part of the argument. If you really want to try and land the spore on a mishap piece of terrain, I'll first warn you that its impassable terrain, but yeah I guess that it does say you can put it anywhere. You could even place it on the side of the table so that its unbalanced and falls off and shatters. Sure. Thats anywhere on the table I guess.
But you DO need to physically put it on the table first before rolling scatter. So that eliminates inside an enemy or friendly unit because you would have to physically place it on the table, and in doing so, move other models.
The mawloc, for example, DOES have provisions for moving enemy models instead of rolling on the mishap. Why provide an FAQ to make sure that you can put it there? Because before the mawloc's TFTD rule, you couldn't. So they FAQed it so that the mawloc gets special exception to try and aim for an enemy unit.

@Kirsanth: No, deepstriking occurs during the reserves part of your turn, which is before the movement phase. Why else specify they can't move during the movement phase?
That the Mawloc has special rules means nothing for how everyone else deepstrikes.

@ChrisCP: For example, that I said that you can't place the spore anywhere on the table except in impassable terrain or in a unit. (I never said you couldn't put it in a hill, so why try and tell me I did, unless they're putting words in my mouth so they can refute them). Also listing the Mawloc and Master of Ordinance as examples of alternate deepstrike and scatter methods (They aren't the same thing, why try and apply rules that don't need to be). Or positing that I've meant that you roll dangerous terrain during the scatter if you pass over it. And I could go on, but I don't want to whine. Also, I like your sig.

Doomthumbs wrote:
@Kirsanth: No, deepstriking occurs during the reserves part of your turn, which is before the movement phase. Why else specify they can't move during the movement phase?
That the Mawloc has special rules means nothing for how everyone else deepstrikes.

The Tyranid FAQ shows that reserves is part of movement phase in the question asked. "do tryranids need to test for instinctive behaviour if they started the turn more than 12" away but a synapse creature arrives from reserves within 12 inches." The response was yes they have to test as there movement phase has already started. This to me says reserves are done in movement phase, not before. If reserves were before movement they would not have to test.

Melchiour wrote:The Tyranid FAQ shows that reserves is part of movement phase in the question asked. "do tryranids need to test for instinctive behaviour if they started the turn more than 12" away but a synapse creature arrives from reserves within 12 inches." The response was yes they have to test as there movement phase has already started. This to me says reserves are done in movement phase, not before. If reserves were before movement they would not have to test.

No. Its the second FAQ on the page, and it states " Qo Tyranid models need to test for instinctive behavior on the turn they arrive from reserve? A:No".

Looks like a No to me. And not even an elaborated No. Wait, no, its the third one on the page. Hmm. Ok, so reserves happen at the very beginning of the movement phase, before anything moves, but still counts as in the movement phase.

Edit, Nevermind you found it.

But you've taken the original quote from Kirsath out of context Melchiour. He was talking about page 13 of the brb, where it talks about moving your models during the movement phase.
You still can't move them, so this is again out of context and does not relate to my main point or question which is that to put the spore ON the table means you would have to move models out of its way to do so.

DT - there is no "reserves" phase just before the movement phase. Stop making things up, or provide a rules page to show this supposed phase existing.

Please explain how you are defining "table" to mean inconsistent things.

First of you say placing on impassable terrain is OK. Then say placing it on models isnt, as you arent placing it on the table - however impassable terrain == models. So you're being inconsistent.

Finally - you are abbreviating the quote. The rules tell you to pt the model wher you WANT the UNIT to turn up

From this you can deduce a) the model placed is a marker, as the unit hasnt turned up yet (holds true for single model units as well) and b) the unit turns up after scatter is resolved.

By being able to place it ON impassable terrain (remember: terrain = table, before you go down that argument dead end again) you can place it ON models as they ARE impassable terrain. No movement of models required.

It comes down to this: you are seeing the word "table" and mentally expanding it to include "terrain as well, including impassable" but then forgetting / deliberatey excluding "other models", when "models" are defined as impassable terrain. This is inconsistent, and in fact the only consistent options are:

1) Table means table. This means you cannot EVER place pods / other DS'ers on top of difficult terrain, a flocked part of the board (flock isnt "table") or into ruins.

This directly contradicts the rules for Ruins which states you CAN deepstrike into Ruins, and is therefore invalid.

2) "Table" is GW speak for "anywhere on the 6x4 area you are plaing on". This includes all terrain, flock, and because it includes ALL terrain it includes other models.

This happily agrees with the rules for DSing into ruins, as well as following every single ruling ever made for how to deepstrike.

Doomthumbs wrote:But you've taken the original quote from Kirsath out of context Melchiour. He was talking about page 13 of the brb, where it talks about moving your models during the movement phase.
You still can't move them, so this is again out of context and does not relate to my main point or question which is that to put the spore ON the table means you would have to move models out of its way to do so.

No, I was just correcting you on reserves happening before movement phase. I made no connection to the spores movement or usage. I was simply pointing out reserves are in movement phase to help clarify.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DT - there is no "reserves" phase just before the movement phase. Stop making things up, or provide a rules page to show this supposed phase existing.
[In this long and confused post you're about to make, you quote the rulebook not even once. Or me, even once. Or reading what Melchiour and I just got through discussing.]

Please explain how you are defining "table" to mean inconsistent things.
[I'm not, table is a table. Quote me as to when I've been inconsistent on this.]

First of you say placing on impassable terrain is OK. Then say placing it on models isnt, as you arent placing it on the table - however impassable terrain == models. So you're being inconsistent.
[For Impassable Terrain, you don't have to move any models out of the way to set your one unit down as a marker. So there is a difference, you're choosing not to see it or aknowledge it.]

Finally - you are abbreviating the quote. The rules tell you to pt the model wher you WANT the UNIT to turn up
[Not only is what you've provided here abbreviated, its not the wording.]

From this you can deduce a) the model placed is a marker, as the unit hasnt turned up yet (holds true for single model units as well) and b) the unit turns up after scatter is resolved.
[You ARE placing the model on the table then. If you want to do that inside an enemy unit, you've got to move something so that your marker can go down.]

By being able to place it ON impassable terrain (remember: terrain = table, before you go down that argument dead end again) you can place it ON models as they ARE impassable terrain. No movement of models required.
[You refute this two sentences from now.]

It comes down to this: you are seeing the word "table" and mentally expanding it to include "terrain as well, including impassable" but then forgetting / deliberatey excluding "other models", when "models" are defined as impassable terrain. This is inconsistent, and in fact the only consistent options are:
[You can deepstrike the pod into difficult terrain, which counts as dangerous for DSers. Again, I've never said models aren't impassable terrain. Just impassable terain you have to move something to set the pod down in.]

1) Table means table. This means you cannot EVER place pods / other DS'ers on top of difficult terrain, a flocked part of the board (flock isnt "table") or into ruins.
[Ok, what?]

This directly contradicts the rules for Ruins which states you CAN deepstrike into Ruins, and is therefore invalid.
[THIS directly contradicts your above statement.]

2) "Table" is GW speak for "anywhere on the 6x4 area you are plaing on". This includes all terrain, flock, and because it includes ALL terrain it includes other models.
[Aaand you've changed your mind again.]

This happily agrees with the rules for DSing into ruins, as well as following every single ruling ever made for how to deepstrike.

In that quote, my questions are in the brackets.

Doomthumbs wrote:The model gets physically put on the table before dice get rolled. If, as you guys are wanting to have happen, I placed it on top of another unit, that unit has to move models out of the way for me to physically put the model on the table

No, models do not move out of the way. In fact, with no permission to move those models they cannot move out of the way.

Other models are impassable terrain. Assuming you have a rule which allows you to be placed in impassable terrain (which deep strike does) and the model will not fit there then wobby model syndrome kicks in - P13 BRB

Scott-S6 wrote:
No, models do not move out of the way. In fact, with no permission to move those models they cannot move out of the way.

Other models are impassable terrain. Assuming you have a rule which allows you to be placed in impassable terrain (which deep strike does) and the model will not fit there then wobby model syndrome kicks in - P13 BRB

On the first point, I think you got it exactly right.

Since this is a purist rules debate, I'm going to call you on the fact that WMS requires both players to agree thats happening. I don't agree. Now, you could argue that this makes me an obstinate pile of monkey feces, but I'll again point out that I'm not going to let my opponent intentionally try and destroy his model in a friendly game. Or even a tournament game.

DT - please try reading a little closer. It helps. It isnt a confused post.

You made a flat out, bald statement that is simply making things up, and were called on it. Here it is, as apparently you cant remember what you posted:

Doomthumbs making gak up wrote:
@Kirsanth: No, deepstriking occurs during the reserves part of your turn, which is before the movement phase. Why else specify they can't move during the movement phase?

a) you have no rules support for that extraordinary claim, and when asked you duck the question. Perhaps you should retract that claim and apologise to Kirsanth?
b) You even get the last part wrong - the rules specify you cannot move *any further* that movement phase. Dropping context is a persistent failing of yours.

"Table": You are inconsistent as:

1) You state you can place the marker on top of impassable terrain such as an intact building; yet
2) you state you cannot place the marker on top of models, and instead have decided you must move them out of the way.

1) and 2) are not consistent with each other as you have been REPEATEDLY told (and presumably are deliberately ignoring that fact that) that models == impassable terrain.

Hence why you are being inconsistent in your standards for "placing models on the table" vary when dealing with terrain features and when dealing with models.

ALso: yes it is the wording, or closer than your phrasing. It requires you to place a model from the unit in the position where you want the unit to turn up. If you wish to contradict please provide the whole wording. Your contraction is much less accurate, as you are attending to dissemble by conflating model placed with actual unit, as it is of benefit to your "argument" to do so.

DT wrote:[You ARE placing the model on the table then. If you want to do that inside an enemy unit, you've got to move something so that your marker can go down.]

Um, what? No, not at all. See how you are inconsistent when the terrain in question is a model? Impassable terrain is impassable terrain, whether it is a building or another model. Either way you place your marker ON the impassable terrain and roll scatter.

DT wrote:[You can deepstrike the pod into difficult terrain, which counts as dangerous for DSers. Again, I've never said models aren't impassable terrain. Just impassable terain you have to move something to set the pod down in.]

Um, where are you getting these rules from? Please provide a rulesquote saying you need to move models out of the way despite them being the same terrain classification.

We're still waiting on this one, by the way, and you're still making things up.

DT not getting it wrote:[Ok, what?]

I was showing how your argument is inconsistent in application, and was showing you the 2 consistent interpretations. If you had read the preceding sentence (hint: its the one ending in a colon) this should have been clear to you.

I then showed that the former interpretation, that you have to literaly place the mode on the playing surface =-table and nowhere else, is contradicted by the rules for Ruins.

DT still not getting it wrote:[THIS directly contradicts your above statement.]

Well duh. I actually stated that in the sentence you quoted. That was, in fact, the point of the paragraph, which was to show that the consistent position of "table meaning just the literal table" was invalid.

DT not understanding what a list of options are wrote:Aaand you've changed your mind again.]

Nope, this is you again failing to understnad a simple premise, a list of possible interpretations and evidence showing how only one fits the actual rules.

2) is simply the consistent approach to what is meant by "table", happily agrees with rules and more importantly doesnt require any made up rules requiring you to move models out of the way, when you dont move OTHER impassable terrain out of the way - which is your inconsistent approach.

Feel free to misunderstand this post as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Feel free to misunderstand this post as well.

I don't see how one couldn't.

If you're unwilling to see how placing a model on top of impassable terrain (just terrain with no models on it) is different from placing the pod on top of models (which yes, are impassable) then man, I don't know what to say. Go ahead and target your deepstrikers wherever you like, even if that place destroys them on a success. I'll be here playing my game like a rational human being.

I will respond to the first point you made (presumably the most potent in your argument), by asking you this:
If I moved all of my models, and was about to move on to my shooting phase, but forgot my reserves, is it not true that theres no way in hell you'd allow me to do that? So it is slightly different, and was already covered by melch and I.

Mawlocs aren't the only ones who can move models via deepstrike...Monoliths can too.

Doomthumbs wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
No, models do not move out of the way. In fact, with no permission to move those models they cannot move out of the way.

Other models are impassable terrain. Assuming you have a rule which allows you to be placed in impassable terrain (which deep strike does) and the model will not fit there then wobby model syndrome kicks in - P13 BRB

On the first point, I think you got it exactly right.

Since this is a purist rules debate, I'm going to call you on the fact that WMS requires both players to agree thats happening. I don't agree. Now, you could argue that this makes me an obstinate pile of monkey feces, but I'll again point out that I'm not going to let my opponent intentionally try and destroy his model in a friendly game. Or even a tournament game.

In such a situation there are three options:
1. Agree to use WMS
2. Place the spod somewhere else
3. Break the rules and move the models under the spod out of the way. (not really an option but I thought I'd mention it for completeness)

As with all WMS scenarios, you either agree to use WMS or you place the model somewhere else. You cannot take a voluntary action where the only outcome is breaking a rule.


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Doomthumbs wrote:
@Kirsanth: No, deepstriking occurs during the reserves part of your turn, which is before the movement phase.

"At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit." P94
Rolling for reserves happens in the movement phase (remember, start of movement phase happens at the exact same time as start of turn - see P9) before you move any models. Deploying models from reserves happens after that. It must, therefore, be in the movement phase.

Doomthumbs wrote:Why else specify they can't move during the movement phase?

Where, exactly, does it say that?

Doomthumbs wrote: Again, I've never said models aren't impassable terrain. Just impassable terain you have to move something to set the pod down in.]

There is absolutely nothing to support moving models aside. If models have to be moved aside to make room for the spod then why not mountains? Either quote some rules to back that up or drop that point.

DT - they are entirely , 100% the SAME situation: they are BOTH impassable terrain. NOthing else matters.

I am being entirely rational and following the rules. If you choose to break them, because you believe it is irrational not to, then that is your prerogative - but dressing up your houserules that, for some reason, treat one type of impassable terrain differently to another as rules? Uh, no.

No, I would not let you drop reserves as the final action in the movement phase, because it tells you you MUST do it as the FIRST action in the movement phase. Not sure why you have made up a pre-movement movement phase to make reserves happen in. You have still to show rules for this erroneous statement to Kirsanth, and despite being asked for direct rules quotes to back this up have ducked the question repeatedly. The only sensible conclusion is you know you are making stuff up, just wont admit it.

Wobbly Model Rule.

Problem solved.

/endthread