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Leggy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Vendetta likely won't get a release, simply because there is a kit for it from Forge World.

There's no reason for it to be made into an entirely new kit, simply because it's absurd to do it just for twin-linked Lascannons to be made into an entirely new sprue for the Valkyrie kit.

Because stuff that Forgeworld release never EVER gets converted to plastic, does it?

Plus, with it only needing one sprue makes it far more likely than the Thunderbolt everyone is hoping for, as it is far less of an investment for almost guaranteed gains. And who says they won't take the opportunity to fill the sprue with other little add-ons and upgrade bits. GW do so love their gubbins these days.

(ps, Thunderbolt is also a Forgeworld model.)

I'm well aware of GW/FW's history converting things from resin to plastic.

As for your examples, they're not even right for the most part.
The Fire Prism, Manticore, and Executioners weren't "converted from resin to plastic".
The Manticore was a brand new design, as was the Executioner and the Fire Prism.
I'm going to assume that your Fire Prism example was the Night Spinner; which wasn't even a direct conversion from resin to plastic(go to FW's site and look at the kit for the Night Spinner. The barrels are much longer than the plastic version).

The point is that the Vendetta is a ridiculous thing to consider for an aircraft heavy expansion, because it's really not appropriate for it to begin with.

A Thunderbolt is far, far more likely because of the role it plays(plus the fact that it would be a new kit rather than a recut). It's heavy air support with the capability to shoot down/dogfight other flyers of the same type(which have all been what's rumored), not a stupidly uparmed transport repurposed for anti-tank work instead of GW being smart and implementing the Vulture Gunship as a Heavy Support choice(which the Vulture's not even a good choice for this rumored expansion, again because it's not something you'd see dogfighting.).

The other point is that at even if they were to release the Vendetta/Valkyrie kit at this point in time, it's a waste of money for them to recut/repurpose the Valkyrie sprues to include a Vendetta Assault Carrier's loadout because pretty much every Guard player either has gone out of their way to convert the loadout using Predator sponsons or has sprung for the FW conversion kit.


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Nurglitch wrote:I'm likewise doubtful of the utility of Flyers in 40k. Skimmers, like hover-tanks and VTOL stuff sure, the game is loaded with them, but the board is usually too small for a real battle anyways, what are aircraft doing in a skirmish engagement?

Now Epic Armageddon, that handles Flyers pretty well.

Who said anything about Skirmishes?

The implication is that the rules set would be for Apocalypse/Megabattle sized games or even a complete overhaul of Apocalypse and its rules period.

At least that's the feeling I've been getting from these rumors.

Hmmm on the topic of the expansion, anyone think these rules be inspired by Aeronautica Imperialis? Or would they still be very different games like Epic/Titanicus to Apoc

FW and Apocalypse currently HAVE flyer rules. These are more obvious candidates.

Some sort of Chaos flyer woudl be nice if everyone else is getting skimmers/flyers.

Plastic kits of the 2 FW kits or evne /gasp a dreadclaw drop pod kit + rules!

Alpharius wrote:Flyers on the now standard 4'x6' table are a bit silly.

They'd be a bit much on a 4'x8' too, actually...

A "superheavy' flyer like a Thunderhawk?

OK, I suppose...

That's what I was just thinking.

These flyer models are a bit annoying to be honest. I like planes as much as the other guy, but GW has a problem with scale. Their models aren't in scale with eachother. Cadians are too big compared to Space Marines, etc.

In the case of Rhinos, Predators, Falcons, Chimeras, etc, GW wants us to 'understand' that the tanks have been scaled down for gameplay's sake. Afterall, how could ten Marine models fit inside the Rhino model? They said this exact same thing about the new Dark Eldar Raider and Ravager models. The people that I know are happy about the models being quite slim. They're easier to play with.

The flyers on the other are another story. The Valkyrie is too big. It's in the correct scale too regarding Imperial Guard infantry models. Pilots and passengers can all be fit on board. Therefore the Valkyrie model is absolutely massive in comparison to a Raider model for example. Most people that I know don't like the fact that Vendettas take so much space on the table top. Will this change? Will all future flyer models be absolutely humongous just like the Valkyrie, or will they be scaled down like all the tanks currently in play?

Personally, I hope the Valkyrie was just a one-off blunder and all the future flyers are about 20 or 25% smaller. 40K tables aren't large enough to support multiples of them (10 Vendettas on one table is just slowed). Once there's no room on the tabletop to even maneouvre the units properly even the last bit of illusion that we're having a 'game' is lost and everyone realises we're just rolling dice and imagining we're playing a war game.

In the GW news article about the DE reaver kit, they mentioned that they progressed the 3D CAD model up to a point then set aside the craftworld version to concentrate on the DE reavers.

Therefore my money is on updated Eldar jetbikes with the possible addition of a plastic kit or upgrade kit for the Shining Spears & maybe a make-over of the Vyper.

That would be 3 'flyer' kits......

Therion wrote:Afterall, how could ten Marine models fit inside the Rhino model?

6 in the seats, 2 by the side doors, 2 in the isle between the seated marines and then 2 tank crew members. I've seen it modeled.

bubber wrote:In the GW news article about the DE reaver kit, they mentioned that they progressed the 3D CAD model up to a point then set aside the craftworld version to concentrate on the DE reavers.

Therefore my money is on updated Eldar jetbikes with the possible addition of a plastic kit or upgrade kit for the Shining Spears & maybe a make-over of the Vyper.

That would be 3 'flyer' kits......

Jetbikes and Vypers don't count as flyers even in rule sets with flyers (neither do the Scourges). So we are talking about real flyers.
Having said that, the craftworld jetbike has a prototype that is almost identical to the DE Reaver:

Why don't they produce that model?

aka_mythos wrote:

Therion wrote:Afterall, how could ten Marine models fit inside the Rhino model?

6 in the seats, 2 by the side doors, 2 in the isle between the seated marines and then 2 tank crew members. I've seen it modeled.

I would like to see a picture of that then, because I have seen people try, and there is absolutely no way to fit ten Marines in a Rhino in a realistic way.

And the driver is supposed to be in there in addition of the passengers.


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Flashman wrote:Why don't they produce that model?

The word "PROTOTYPE" on the big card in front of the model in there for a reason you know

Kroothawk wrote:Hi,
What will those flyers be?
Razorwing and Voidraven for DE confirmed. In one or two kits? Kits including Craftworld versions?
Many rumours about a Storm Raven kit for GK/BA. Release with GK Codex or later? Or Xmas? Any chance for a Thunderhawk?
Other rumours include Barracuda for Tau, Fighta/Bomba for Orks, Thunderbolt for Imperials and some Tyranid flyer (Harridan too big?, Harpy?).
Is there room for a Necron flyer? Along with the Codex release?

We there has to be at least the storm raven, its in BA and rumored in grey knights thats seems a given. Harpy perhaps, since its in the tyranid codex but has no model?

I have seen the Rhino modeled with 10 passengers-- 3 seated Marines on either side, three standing marines, and the Sergeant up front with the driver. Keep in mind that Rhinos only have one crewman, so it's really 11 marines in the thing.

Fetterkey wrote:I have seen the Rhino modeled with 10 passengers-- 3 seated Marines on either side, three standing marines, and the Sergeant up front with the driver. Keep in mind that Rhinos only have one crewman, so it's really 11 marines in the thing.

There sued to be a pic going around of an old-style Rhino with a modeled crew compartment. The modeler used crew minis from an older metal Landspeeder kit to cheat a bit, but it certainly worked...

To be honest I don't really like that Eldar Jetbike sculpt...it looks a bit bare when it could have a nice eldar-esque spire behind the seat (because those two handle-looking extensions don't really make it look much fuller than without). I understand they're trying to make it not look identical to the DE jetbike but it looks like it could use a few extra pieces - maybe lengthen it to make it looks sleeker and more aerodynamic than the DE bike which looks far better at cornering for some reason.

However I am liking the ball-and-socket flight stand they have going, if only they have they on all skimmers!

That's it: I'm moving ahead with some flyer rules. Dogfighting and proper air-ground engagement rules will probably be the first things to be developed. After that, maybe some rules for including jetbike units and maybe even jump troops in the aerial scrum.

Heck, maybe if these are good they could influence what's going to be published in the WD/supplement. And if some official rules _do_ indeed emerge and are compatible, maybe we could change any useful extra bits of the community-developed rules to be extensions of the core set.

A thread will be started in the 40K Proposed Rules forum, and all assistance and commentary would be appreciated. Actually, I haven't even searched for older sets on there, so that'll be the first step. George Spigott's excellent 4th ed. dogfighting rules and some other scattered sources will be our first source material.

Links to follow in a day or two.

I'd agree with other in this thread that IMHO if there are 7 flyers in production that they will be releasing some sort of flyer expansion.

If this gives all races a new or existing flyer or two cheaper than we already have then I'm all for it.

I just looked up the Barracuda, and it seems kind of dissapointing. A sky ray with an ion cannon, from the looks of it.

I believe at least one of the 7 new flyers will be for Dark Eldar.
We can safely assume there will be one for space marines (all flavours).
Now, what 5 other races will get some plastic flyers.
I'd say it won't be SoB, Daemonhunters (it would be the same as Space Marines), Necrons or Chaos Daemons.

That leaves Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau.

6 armies for 5 flyers, I think they will drop either Orks or Tyranids.

poipo32 wrote:

6 armies for 5 flyers, I think they will drop either Orks or Tyranids.

Hmm I dont think they would drop nidz. Too good of an opportunity to get people to buy Harpies

This all sounds great! Hopefully they keep the DE rules where they stay on board and act as fast skimmers instead of the FW rules where the model is never on the table.

Savnock wrote:A thread will be started in the 40K Proposed Rules forum, and all assistance and commentary would be appreciated. Actually, I haven't even searched for older sets on there, so that'll be the first step. George Spigott's excellent 4th ed. dogfighting rules and some other scattered sources will be our first source material.

I've attached the web page containing the rules to this post. These dogfight rules are an extension to the old flyer rules. I've no idea how the current flyer rules work or how these rules would interact with them.

It was a pleasure to be of help.

Thanks, George!

Kanluwen wrote:Vendetta likely won't get a release, simply because there is a kit for it from Forge World.

Baneblade, Shadowsword, Stormsword, Valkyrie, Skyray, Piranha, LR Executioner, LR Exterminator, LR Vanquisher.

These are just the FW kits that I can think of off the top of my head that were replaced by plastic. I’m not saying that I disagree with your conclusion (I also doubt we’ll see a 100% plastic Vulture), only that your reasoning is flawed. The existence of a FW kit in no way influences whether or not a plastic release will get made.

We’re more likely to see a plastic Thunderbolt than a Vult because the Vult is too similar to the Valk, and the question will be “Why is this a flyer when my Vendetta is not?”. Additionally, the Thunderbolt is more of a traditional ‘plane’, and if we are getting an aircraft expansion, they’ll want to give us signature jet-fighters, of which the Thunderbolt is the main Imperial one. Another reason is practicality (and this is twofold). Self-space is a big deal in GW stores, and there has to be a reason to release something slightly similar to another product and for it to occupy the same shelf space. The Chaos Land Raider and Rhino, despite being the same kit as their Loyalist counterparts exist as they are part of a separate brand (Chaos), where as they had to come up with two new styles of tank (Redeemer & Baal Predator w/Flamestorm Cannon) to justify having ‘another’ Land Raider on the shelf that only different a little bit from the original kit.

The other practicality issue are the sprues themselves. I put together my Valks a while ago, and from my recollection they are complex kits (took most of a day to put together 4 of them). To cut down on wasted resources (new sprues = time = money), they’d want to use as many existing frames as possible (like the Redeemer/Crusader kit), but I’m not sure that would be possible with the Valk – its pieces are a bit all over the place. A Thunderbolt on the other hand could be done on two frames, three frames tops + oval base and big flying stand, and could be in a thin box to further save room. And, if you’ll excuse the pun, such a kit would fly off the shelves.

Forge World isn’t a factor when it comes to making new kits. Will it sell in enough volume to warrant the expense of making the sprues would be the first consideration, not whether they’re stepping on their garage-kit resin team.

I almost feel like I didn't make it clear(not being defensive or trying to be an arse or anything...)

The Vendetta from Forge World? It's a conversion kit, there's exactly four pieces. That(along with, as you mentioned, Valkyries and their variants not really being aircraft but VTOLs) is why I say "it likely won't get a release".

I just can't see it reasonably being a good investment for GW to set up a whole new sprue for 4 bits when the Valkyrie itself likely hasn't made its cost back yet.

You guys argue in pm, don't screw up another thread.

What arguing?
Oh, and for the record?
You're not a mod, you don't get to tell anyone what to do.

Especially about "arguments", when you're sitting there with one of the Foam War avatars.

Therion wrote:These flyer models are a bit annoying to be honest. I like planes as much as the other guy, but GW has a problem with scale. Their models aren't in scale with eachother. Cadians are too big compared to Space Marines, etc.

In the case of Rhinos, Predators, Falcons, Chimeras, etc, GW wants us to 'understand' that the tanks have been scaled down for gameplay's sake. Afterall, how could ten Marine models fit inside the Rhino model? They said this exact same thing about the new Dark Eldar Raider and Ravager models. The people that I know are happy about the models being quite slim. They're easier to play with.

The flyers on the other are another story. The Valkyrie is too big. It's in the correct scale too regarding Imperial Guard infantry models. Pilots and passengers can all be fit on board. Therefore the Valkyrie model is absolutely massive in comparison to a Raider model for example. Most people that I know don't like the fact that Vendettas take so much space on the table top. Will this change? Will all future flyer models be absolutely humongous just like the Valkyrie, or will they be scaled down like all the tanks currently in play?

Personally, I hope the Valkyrie was just a one-off blunder and all the future flyers are about 20 or 25% smaller. 40K tables aren't large enough to support multiples of them (10 Vendettas on one table is just slowed). Once there's no room on the tabletop to even maneouvre the units properly even the last bit of illusion that we're having a 'game' is lost and everyone realises we're just rolling dice and imagining we're playing a war game.

Well, that was a downer. So some things being right is a bad thing? even though the things that are wrong generally couldn't possibly be made right? Lighten up, Francis.

Orinoco wrote:

Well, that was a downer. So some things being right is a bad thing? even though the things that are wrong generally couldn't possibly be made right? Lighten up, Francis.

...but if you call me Francis, I'll kill ya.

Kanluwen wrote:The Vendetta from Forge World? It's a conversion kit, there's exactly four pieces. That(along with, as you mentioned, Valkyries and their variants not really being aircraft but VTOLs) is why I say "it likely won't get a release".

I just can't see it reasonably being a good investment for GW to set up a whole new sprue for 4 bits when the Valkyrie itself likely hasn't made its cost back yet.

Firstly, one of those 'four' bits is a massive block of resin. The GW version (assuming there ever was one) would be decidedly hollower, and have more bits. Secondly, the Vulture doesn't exactly come with weapons. Again, the GW version (assuming there ever was one blah blah blah...) would have lots of different weapon options. It would be far, far, far more than 'four pieces'.

Kanluwen wrote:Especially about "arguments", when you're sitting there with one of the Foam War avatars.

Ouch! Score one for Kan.