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i think the storm raven is going to be great. being competetive with a razorback spam list is only fun for a while, getting good with a cool air cav list is fun in a different way just like my 15 thunderwolf cav list makes for yet another fun learning curve.
for me 3 ravens packed with dreads and assault troops is awesome. you can fire off 12 missiles and 3 twin las and 3 typhoon missile systems turn one at 6 different targets. thats going to do some damage especially to razorback spam. then you move in fast and assault 3 dreads and 36 men direct into the enemy lines while still firing 3 twin las at another 3 targets or 3 hurricane bolter sponsons into the infantry.
thats a whole lot of fire power. it is all the eggs in 3 baskets but its seriously fun.
lets be honest fun lists remain fun for longer than dull competetive lists.

The stormraven is a big thread carrying lots of firepower and troops = bullet magnet. Bullet magnet with AV12, high visability and no cover saves = destroyed on the turn it enters the game.

how do you justify "no cover saves"
its a skimmer so stays on the ground when finished its movement. so start behind an object, then when its your turn move out of cover and fire everything. or start in reserve and when you come on fire everything. the amount of fire power it punches will do some damage. valks/vendettas are no stronger and they survive well enough. i have played games with vendettas standing in for stormravens and it works well, not always but alot.

Plus, if you're using it purely as a assault delivery system you'll have a turboboost save for a turn, right?

I think it would be worth it to model the thing not on a Valk stand though. I hope they don't force us to stick it way up in the air where you need skyscrapers to give it cover. >.<

if you follow skimmer rules you dont need to worry about scenery size as it finishes its turn on the ground, so any scenary that grants a save to a tank should give cover (ish)
great point about the turbo boost too.
i personally cant wait to get hold of three of them. ill be there on release day.

Don't compare it to a valk/vendetta. It costs quite a bit more and as a gun boat doesn't have the same consistent firepower. It also doesn't have scouts for useful pregame moves or outflanking. Lastly it can't be squadroned meaning you cant use a few and still have FOC slots left in its secion.
TBH It would be better to compare it to the Land Raider IMO. Both are assault transports closer in price and carry the same type of infantry. There are trade offs with each though.
The Raven can be quite a bit faster than the land raider carry jump infantry holds 12 normal models (as opposed to the 10 of the Phobos) can carry a dread and has good alpha strike potential. Also Flat out plus PotMS with a MM is fun.
The Raider has better armor, is a dedicated transport, can pop smoke for a turn to gain cover no matter if it moved or not. The crusader has a better capacity as well. Also it can be dropped from the sky like a brick to land near you opponents lines however useful (or not) that might be.

Lastly the Land Raider model actually looks decent. The Storm Raven looks pretty bad IMO and for someone who agrees then they might have to convert their own.

Cheers
~Volkan

Volkan wrote:Don't compare it to a valk/vendetta. It costs quite a bit more and as a gun boat doesn't have the same consistent firepower.

It's a fast skimmer with POTMS. It can fire two weapons when moving fast, where are valk cannot.

I think you're mistaken.

I think Stormravens will be able to get cover saves.


Valks/Vendettas got shafted by that massive pole they sit on(it does look really cool ), but it had to do with some stability and the Stormraven appears to be slightly more compact. it should definitly come on a shorter base.

from a tactics point of view which this thread is about.
can you move, run then assault from an assault vehicle?
if so thats a potential 26" assault move for a 12 man squad and a dread.
while still firing a twin las and twin multi melta at 2 targets.
tactically thats awesome if im right

No

if the vehicle moves you can't move, shoot(run if you're fleet) and then assault.

the Vehicle moves 12"(any more and you can't get out), you deploy 2" from assault ramps, may shoot, and finally assault 6"

Dreadnoughts scatter D6" when they get out of a Stormraven IIRC in addition to the above.

20" threat range from infantry in the Raven, dreadnought is +-D6.

fox40 wrote:from a tactics point of view which this thread is about.
can you move, run then assault from an assault vehicle?
if so thats a potential 26" assault move for a 12 man squad and a dread.
while still firing a twin las and twin multi melta at 2 targets.
tactically thats awesome if im right

The Death Company Dread can...Mephiston could if he was riding in it. I can't think of anything else in the codex that has fleet though.

@Monster Rain
I'm not saying that the damage output is bad from the Raven but you pay a a premium for the firepower it has and it can certainly put out a significant salvo but afterward it only has 2 weapons left unless you took hurricane bolters.
The Vend doesn't have the mobility while putting out its full firepower that the raven has but it also doesn't need to get its cargo into assault. The Valk can keep rolling with its primary weapon and 2 rocket pods a turn while going fast or is only moving six can potentially add in 2 more heavy bolters. In the end though I don't think the roles for the vehicles are the same and that was why I didn't think they should be compared.

Cheers,
~Volkan


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also @ Fox40
I assume when you say move you mean move the transport not the squad after you disembark.

after disembark i mean move the squad.
it should be move stormraven 12, disembark troops 2 then run d6 and assault 6 so upto 26" to assault.

where does it say dreads scatter d6????

You definitely cannot run and then assault unless you are a death company dreadnought or Mephiston, as was already stated.

So...
12" move in raven
2" disembark
6" assault move
20" max

Dreads and passengers only scatter if you bail out of the Storm Raven while it is moving flat out. If you do this you cannot assault.

I think unloading all the missiles on a deserving target on a short first turn move is a great option, since we are talking about this thing getting blown up early anyway...

Something I would like to add.

It has potms, so it can turbo boost (get the 4++ save) and still fire a weapon.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:Something I would like to add.

It has potms, so it can turbo boost (get the 4++ save) and still fire a weapon.

Indeed.

That's a pretty nice thing to have.

Are there any rumors about fleet Grey Knights? Cause that would make this awesome as well...

i haven't played with the stormraven but I think it can be a very viable unit. Most people here have shown its pros and cons pretty well.

I think you can't think of it as being in relation to much else, it can't really be compared to a land raider or to a valk since the stormraven has to used in a very particular way. I feel like if you can find a way to keep the stormravens in play, and find some sort of tactic they excel at then they can become really good, it does seem to require the army to focus on the stormravens which does limit your options by a lot.

I feel like they seem to have many of the same general issues as DoA armies have. They are expensive, really limits what the army can field, and really requires a good first turn, or a good drop for stormraven or DoA respectfully.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think it may be more viable in GK def if you can have stormtrooper squads in valks or have valks somewhere else in the list, the use of stormravens with valks would be very cool, almost be like using vanguard vets with DoA assault marines, just a thought!

rdlb wrote:Are there any rumors about fleet Grey Knights? Cause that would make this awesome as well...

No

NFWs will be interesting.

they will be CCWs that, if the squad passes a Psychic Test at the beginning of the CC phase, will be Force Weapons(PW, causes ID)

there will be an option to upgrade NFWs to Force Halbards. Same as above except with +2 Str.

So mr. Therion. So it is AV 12. It is a fast skimmer. So it is expensive. Do you have a better transport up your sleeve for delivering a DC dread into assault turn two? Eh? What's that? Drop pod? Maybe. I don't think so - the enemy has a turn to shoot at it outside of it's transport.

Got to say I'm more of a fan of the cheap land raiders (take a 5 man assault squad remove their jump packs and can take a land raider for 35pts less ... works out 25pts cheaper)

So mr. Therion.

A) Your Dread will never make it since first the Stormraven is shot down and then the Dread is destroyed. If the Dread manages to hide behind some humongous piece of scratch-built wreckage, well congratulations, you might get to assault a moving Chimera or Razorback with it before it's popped.

B) You shouldn't be using Dreadnoughts in the first place, especially the worst kind, the DC Dreadnoughts.

C) If you want to find uses for ineffective units, go right ahead but it won't change the fact they're ineffective. You just might've found a use for them. I have a use for them too. They're nice to look at in the glass cabinet.

Sweet suffering Christ do I hate theory hammer.

The Stormraven is a good unit. Let's stop inventing scenarios where it can't possibly be useful. I particularly enjoy the supposition that BA Dreads with fleet aren't any good, particularly in a flying assault vehicle.

Monster Rain wrote:Sweet suffering Christ do I hate theory hammer.

The Stormraven is a good unit. Let's stop inventing scenarios where it can't possibly be useful. I particularly enjoy the supposition that BA Dreads with fleet aren't any good, particularly in a flying assault vehicle.

I particularly enjoy the possibily of facing a 215 point flying Chimera carrying 140 points of turd. It's a cozy and warm feeling when you realise it's not just yourself who wants to win big, but your opponent wants you to win big also.

Therion wrote:



C) If you want to find uses for ineffective units, go right ahead but it won't change the fact they're ineffective. You just might've found a use for them. I have a use for them too. They're nice to look at in the glass cabinet.

Hohoho.

Yeah, you're right. They suck. They don't work in any of one dude on the internet's invented scenarios so they're completely awful. The fact that he doesn't even know their stats has no bearing on his analysis.

They suck, BA players. Don't use 'em.

Tri wrote:Got to say I'm more of a fan of the cheap land raiders (take a 5 man assault squad remove their jump packs and can take a land raider for 35pts less ... works out 25pts cheaper)

That is a waste in my opinion. You are basically using the landraider with a small troop inside to hold an objective and fire it's weapons. Okay that is not terrible but you aren't making the most out of it's true potential.

I think the Stormraven is in a class all by itself. You can compare it to landraiders and Vendettas but there are lots of differences. Only the Stormraven can carry a dreadnought. It's very good when you can hold it in reserve, move onto the table 6" to alphastrike then next turn deliver an uber assault squad and dreadnaught into melee. You should use the rest of your army to eliminate threats that can shoot it down. It doesn't have smoke launchers but if you are really worried about it then just move it 24" each turn - you can still fire a weapon since it's got PotMS. It's a great transport/mobile weapon platform for the points. And yes it has ceramite plating so meltas only roll 1d6 for armor penetration - 50 percent of the time they will fail to glance/penetrate and that is not taking into account the roll to hit. They are cheaper than a landraider... This might be something that could make Grey Knights a competitive army for once.

I think by saying they suck is really disregarding them, I think they can be viable, it just is a lot harder to do, and prob wont win every game, but would be able to be a pretty well-made army. There may be "better" ways to do the same thing within the BA codex, but the stormraves would play this style in its own way making them an interesting choice for an army. I don't think they can be thrown out so quickly from the codex as just being sucky.

I personally like the Stormraven. It's a niche unit that fills in its niche pretty well. Given the right supporting list, the SR could work quite well. I think the negativity towards the unit can be attributed to the fact that it is a rock paper scissors. Like with all rock, paper scissor units, it’s in the players hands to ensure a scissors unit avoids an opponents rock long enough to achieve its purpose or vice versa.

I personally would like back up Monster Rain by saying theory hammer is not the right way to discuss tactics in the tactics forums as it always assumes a restricted scenario where particular events works out perfectly in favour of a particular player (and in such scenarios, any player can win).
At the end of the day, this is a “Stormraven Tactica” thread where players discuss efficient ways in using the Stormraven and not gripe about any shortcomings the models/rules may have.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:That is a waste in my opinion. You are basically using the landraider with a small troop inside to hold an objective and fire it's weapons. Okay that is not terrible but you aren't making the most out of it's true potential.

I think the Stormraven is in a class all by itself. You can compare it to landraiders and Vendettas but there are lots of differences. Only the Stormraven can carry a dreadnought. It's very good when you can hold it in reserve, move onto the table 6" to alphastrike then next turn deliver an uber assault squad and dreadnaught into melee. You should use the rest of your army to eliminate threats that can shoot it down. It doesn't have smoke launchers but if you are really worried about it then just move it 24" each turn - you can still fire a weapon since it's got PotMS. It's a great transport/mobile weapon platform for the points. And yes it has ceramite plating so meltas only roll 1d6 for armor penetration - 50 percent of the time they will fail to glance/penetrate and that is not taking into account the roll to hit. They are cheaper than a landraider... This might be something that could make Grey Knights a competitive army for once.

Since all of you are dabbling about the same thing, just answer one question: My IG army has 51 heavy weapons and 14 special weapons in 2000 points (17 tanks overall), and the heavy weapons haven't actually been maxed out or anything since theres a PBS in there etc. What kind of odds do you give for your Stormraven to survive a single turn of shooting, considering it doesn't have a cover save and has AV12? When you decide not to alpha strike and move fast instead, you'll get the save, but you'll be wrecked on immobilised results as well. Truth be told it's the same as the IG player assuming he can survive another IG army shooting without losing a single Chimera despite everything being out in the open. It simply won't happen. Any and all of your Stormravens will go down the first shooting phase the enemy gets at them.

What you can then get out of them is reserve them and move 24" to the table and use PotMS to fire the TL MM at something. You'll then be destroyed with 100% certainty but atleast you can hide your Dread and the Marines around the wreckage and if the enemy can't surround and shoot you to death or assault the units inside, you might get to assault something. Sad part is that it's a terrible way to spend 200 or 215 points depending on if you like to buy extra armour for your flying points sink. Additionally, if the target army doesn't have any juicy targets and only consists of moving vehicles, you're in deep and will most likely be wiped out in short order.

What you should be doing on the other hand, is either playing a proper JP DoA list because it wrecks shooty armies from hell much more reliably than any Stormraven junk does, or a BA mech army based on Immolators, Baals and Preds/Devs, lead by your very own Daemon Prince, mr. Mephiston. But of course you can also get desperate and try to find uses for ineffective units that try to be too many things at the same time.

Just a tip, for free this time.

I do think that a fast transport for a jump pack army with all fast vehicles is overkill. But for the Grey Knights, who are chronically short on anti-tank and numbers, the ability to get a squad where you want it safely seems huge. It has access to 2 heavy anti-tank and 4 light anti-tank weapons! Any Gk player would kill for that sort of armor stopping power.

It's all about context- the Vanguard Vets sucked out loud in the SM codex, but are excellent in the BA codex both because of their special rules, and because they have the right supporting units available.

I predict the Storm Pelican will be a must for any assault based GK armies.